Jonathan Paul Manziel
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You're doing a very poor job there mik.
i'm in it for the chuckles AG. screw facts and analysis!
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Yeah must have been luck even though he was able to replicate it about 5x. Come on man.
Gumby, don't take it so personally. I'm not even sure what your answer meant. "Neither guy went with the 1s because Mack sat out"? Umm, ok. MKC is a hack but this ought to be pretty straight forward.
Yeah must have been luck even though he was able to replicate it about 5x. Come on man.
Gumby, don't take it so personally. I'm not even sure what your answer meant. "Neither guy went with the 1s because Mack sat out"? Umm, ok. MKC is a hack but this ought to be pretty straight forward.
When it comes to this topic - some fans really like to root for their predictions after they've cornered themselves beyond the point of no return. I doubt Gumby is in this category because he's a diehard. I get just as annoyed as you do at the guys acting like they can quit their day jobs because they want to remind everyone they predicted Manziel can't make it. Big fucking deal! What's that gonna get ya in a place we're supposed to be celebrating the common bond of rooting for the same team?
Manziel is 22 years old in a league where even Drew Brees once carried a 3 year false positive (enough to prompt his employer to use the 1st overall pick on a QB) heading into his 4th NFL season. Some guys take time depending on what they need to overcome and what the surrounding environment has. Throw in the same chemical dependency that Brett Favre had as a rookie in Atlanta before he asked Ty Detmer what's a nickel in his 2nd training camp and there's even more challenges. The good news for Favre is he was called "Wild Thing" because in between all the ill-advised INTs - he threw enough TDs and made enough plays to forecast greatness ahead. Manziel not only redshirted at A&M; but he only had a 2 year body of work there. I'm almost more concerned with the self-proclaimed experts that were confining him to immediate success or he's a bust. I think you'll find most of them are guys that can't wait to pretend they need to quit their day jobs for their football predictions while many of us pretty much knew he wasn't ready to be an instant messiah for a team coming off 4-12 football. Once upon a time, there was a fanbase in Tampa Bay that chased Steve Young out of town certain he was an epic bust. His day in the sun didn't come until he was about 27 years of age in the perfect setting for his skillset. When he first got going, he was more remembered for his long TD scramble vrs Minnesota. After enough reps/experience, he got a comfort zone as a passer to where he didn't always have to take off. SF was a place that equipped their QBs (Montana, Young, Bono and Garcia) with an ability to throw to the RB and FB positions as well as their All Pro TEs and HOF WR Jerry Rice. My oh my how how those Tampa Bay football fans sure knew a bad QB when they saw one.
Is there a chance he fails? Yes. But why are some guys so compelled to get there before NFL start #3 or 4? It's that fast now? It isn't like this front office/coaching staff can't get the right QBs/guys for our situation under what they're building so some people calm the fuck down. Way back when we traded Paul Warfield so we could draft Mike Phipps at #3 overall - he got way more than 3 starts to fail if you look it up. That said, if it wasn't for his failure - the 13th round QB named Brian Sipe (who allegedly had girly arm syndrome that wasn't NFL material) inexplicably became the only MVP passer I've witnessed in all the time I've spent following this franchise from about 1969-1970 through today. Sipe wasn't immediate either; but the good news somebody gave him more than 3 starts because they understood the overall process. That was back when Mel Blount could undress our WRs all over the field without flags like it was a hockey fight so he fitting the ball in tight spaces was still important way back then. Sipe had a 3 year period where he averaged over 4000 passing yards a year when that was virtually unheard of. Vision seems to be a forgotten prerequisite to accuracy downfield. Meanwhile pocket presence can become a learned asset only through enough reps/experience. Sipe improved every year in this category when he got to the top of his game almost to the extent you'd swear he had eyes in the back of his head. He wasn't really fast or but vision/awareness made him elusive in that pocket. Being game fast comes from being prepared.What have we read Johnny has changed most? Being prepared. That's good news for some of us!
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Here's a bit of a recap from the Scrimmage last night :
JM getting some support from his Team mates, McCown was very happy for him.
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Here's a bit of a recap from the Scrimmage last night :
JM getting some support from his Team mates, McCown was very happy for him.
Here's a bit of a recap from the Scrimmage last night :
JM getting some support from his Team mates, McCown was very happy for him.
Thanks for sharing that!
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I don't mind being called a fanboy. I don't mind admitting Johnny was terrible last year. Hell, I had my doubts he would be back ths year, I'm glad he is. I still have doubts he will be as good in the NFL as I first thought he would be, but I'm happy he's looking better.
It's just moronic to use his pro failure to date to marginalize his college career. However you specify 50/50 balls, he threw less of them than most, and was an incredible college player. Just be honest about it. I'm honest about the fact that his college career now means nothing and he has lots of work to do just to stay on the team.
It's just moronic to use his pro failure to date to marginalize his college career.
I think pretty much everyone here can cite the things that JM did in college that made him look good.
The problem is... that some of the things that made him successful in college simply don't transfer well to the NFL.
And therein lies the connection...
His rookie year JM's college game did not translate well and he did not adapt/ improve his game to be successful.
This year? Signs are there, but it's early...
So fumbling a ball (and then scoring) means his decision making sucks? News to me.
Yes, his decision making sucked on that play. That play was Exhibit A in the case against Manziel because he missed his read and thus a wide open receiver (2nd from the top) early on the slant. Instead he put the ball in jeopardy by beginning a scramble when there was no pressure.
Exciting? Sure... but not exemplary. I'm surprised you don't see that.
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I know. The point was he is taking a shot at Hoyer. Otherwise that comment is just out of left field.
I know. The point was he is taking a shot at Hoyer. Otherwise that comment is just out of left field.
Miles of difference between "not helping" and "sabotage".
Also wonder what the relative timing of that comment and "rehab".
Ok. But you cited it under "poor decision making." You mislabeled.
I could just as easily respond "yes I saw a great play because the kid made something out of nothing." If we could get a list of what counts as "actual quarterbacking," that'd be great, because apparently scrambling against the best front 7 in the country and throwing a TD against the best defense in the country doesn't.
Then I'll take up the banner (as I did above)... It was poor decision making... times two.
So Mack was the only starter out? I don't know why it's so hard to get to the bottom of this. Did Johnny play with JT, Bito, Hawk, Gabriel, etc. or not?
Bowe was also out due to a tweeked hammie...
I know JM took a couple snaps behind our #1 line, but not sure which WRs were in.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I know. The point was he is taking a shot at Hoyer. Otherwise that comment is just out of left field.
Miles of difference between "not helping" and "sabotage".
Also wonder what the relative timing of that comment and "rehab".
Ok. But you cited it under "poor decision making." You mislabeled.
I could just as easily respond "yes I saw a great play because the kid made something out of nothing." If we could get a list of what counts as "actual quarterbacking," that'd be great, because apparently scrambling against the best front 7 in the country and throwing a TD against the best defense in the country doesn't.
Then I'll take up the banner (as I did above)... It was poor decision making... times two.
So Mack was the only starter out? I don't know why it's so hard to get to the bottom of this. Did Johnny play with JT, Bito, Hawk, Gabriel, etc. or not?
Bowe was also out due to a tweeked hammie...
I know JM took a couple snaps behind our #1 line, but not sure which WRs were in.
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Truly neither QB played with the 1's. Mack never saw 11on 11's. Mack played up to 7 on 7's. Fine with me. Both QB's played well and that's along time coming out of me. OL and backs out of sync, No screens, No Mack at C may have helped or a better D front maybe to blame, either way good for us. Orchard got credit for sack but Shelton forced it, big time. Good for both doing their jobs they were brought in here to do. Don't ask M. Moore if Danny plays sideline to sidelines. (my 40 time my azz)
Truly neither QB played with the 1's. Mack never saw 11on 11's. Mack played up to 7 on 7's. Fine with me. Both QB's played well and that's along time coming out of me. OL and backs out of sync, No screens, No Mack at C may have helped or a better D front maybe to blame, either way good for us. Orchard got credit for sack but Shelton forced it, big time. Good for both doing their jobs they were brought in here to do. Don't ask M. Moore if Danny plays sideline to sidelines. (my 40 time my azz)
Honestly War I was just entering my thoughts on the scrimmage while 2 or 3 other reply's came in and I never knew you and Tia had a conversation going on so throw this response out. sorry to both.
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The most refreshing thing for me watching Manziel is he (in just a scrimmage yes) look TONS better in the pocket. Still not there yet sure, but it's clear the guy has been working on it which was refreshing to see.
Also, holy crap on that naked bootleg where McCown out ran whoever that was and threw the laser beam TD. Even in a flag football league game that was a damn nice play.
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Nice words from Joe Thomas about Johnny.....( a good sign).....echoing my thoughts on earning that "trust from his teammates"....
Johnny Manziel has a ways to go before snatching the starting gig away from Josh McCown, but Manziel has won over one large critic: Joe Thomas.
"He's really proved to a lot of people that this is important to him and he's ready to be an NFL starting quarterback,'' the offensive tackle said Friday, via the Northeast Ohio Media Group. "Playing well in the scrimmage tonight and looking like an NFL quarterback is another good step in the direction that he wants to go. He's just earning that trust of his teammates that he's going to need if he wants to be that starter. He impressed a lot of people out here tonight.''
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Agree... but was it "informed"?
I kind of put it together with what he was saying in the interview (I believe the one during the scrimmage) about how well the QB room is going in that they are competitive, but push each other to ALL get better. I still have it recorded so I may have to find that spot for the exact wording he used. I know it was far different from the "sabotage" statement. That's a very strong word indeed and I assume he knew exactly what he was using it for.
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The Farmer quote kinda knocked me outta my chair.
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I'm up to the second Cincinnati game from last year so I'm going to be looking closely at Johnny. I really see a lot of parallels between this game and the A&M-Alabama game from last year. The game ended in a 59-0 loss for my Ags. Now, A&M was undoubtedly not as good of a team as Alabama last year, but ask yourself a question, were they 59 points worse? Were they shutout-level worse? No, not at all. In games like these, usually things start out badly and then just snowball to the point where the team doesn't really feel like playing anymore. So in addition to struggling early, they also don't score or defend well late.
We get off to an early 10-0 deficit in the first quarter. Dalton throws a ball that goes right through the hands of Joe Haden in the endzone. There's a missed opportunity.
Offense goes three and out twice. Is it super ugly? I would say no, but nevertheless, three and outs are never good.
Third drive, Johnny makes the incorrect read of the defensive end on a zone read play. He should have given the ball to Crowell but instead keeps it where the DE immediately creams him for about a 6 yard loss. Another missed opportunity or at a minimum, a terrible play. So we get a third and medium and Johnny actually steps up in the pocket (maybe more of a mini-scramble if you want to get technical) and delivers a nice ball to a wide open Hawkins for the first down plus about 10. Hawkins drops it. Another missed opportunity. We punt.
Bengals get the ball back and a stupid penalty on the punt coverage gives them great field position. We force them into 3rd and medium and Hill converts on a backbreaking draw. Then he has a longish run for a touchdown. 17-zip right off the jump. Oh and just for kicks, Haden is hurt.
OK so the offense is back out. First down, completed screen pass for a decent gain. Called back because Seymour was downfield ineligibly. We got our first first down on a penalty but had to punt again.
Robertson then picks off Dalton. Great play. The game wasn't over yet. But Johnny throws a pick in the endzone on a pretty decent scramble then we go three and out to start the second half. That's pretty much the ball game there.
I started a thread the other day on our overall sloppiness on the little things as a team last year. Well when you go to a new quarterback, any improvements you've made on the sloppiness kinda gets reset. You have to make and improve on some of the same mistakes all over again. It's annoying, but it's life. What's more is that Cincinnati does at the end of the day have a pretty salty defense. You don't want your rookie quarterback cutting his teeth on a team like this. And late in the season to boot!
Personally, if I were Pettine, I would have given Johnny the nod as soon as I heard Vontae Davis would be out for the Indianapolis game. You're playing at home against a pretty BAD defense whose number 1 corner is out? Those are much more fertile conditions for a rookie QB than a perennial playoff team with a good defense coming to town to avenge a bad loss only weeks before. Our OL did not have a good game (only Seymour's second start) and our receivers made some critical drops, but certainly Johnny is culpable for the result here. He missed that zone read, he had the ball extended the wrong direction on what was supposed to be a handoff to West, he threw high balls to Dray and Gordon. He threw the two picks in the first half. Etc.
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The most refreshing thing for me watching Manziel is he (in just a scrimmage yes) look TONS better in the pocket. Still not there yet sure, but it's clear the guy has been working on it which was refreshing to see.
Also, holy crap on that naked bootleg where McCown out ran whoever that was and threw the laser beam TD. Even in a flag football league game that was a damn nice play.
Also, holy crap on that naked bootleg where McCown out ran whoever that was and threw the laser beam TD. Even in a flag football league game that was a damn nice play.
I believe that was Kruger he outran.
Play shocked me as well. I did not know that was part of McCown's game. Added shock was that the old vet actually looked quick.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Agree... but was it "informed"?
I kind of put it together with what he was saying in the interview (I believe the one during the scrimmage) about how well the QB room is going in that they are competitive, but push each other to ALL get better. I still have it recorded so I may have to find that spot for the exact wording he used. I know it was far different from the "sabotage" statement. That's a very strong word indeed and I assume he knew exactly what he was using it for.
I kind of put it together with what he was saying in the interview (I believe the one during the scrimmage) about how well the QB room is going in that they are competitive, but push each other to ALL get better. I still have it recorded so I may have to find that spot for the exact wording he used. I know it was far different from the "sabotage" statement. That's a very strong word indeed and I assume he knew exactly what he was using it for.
To the point of my question...
I would be surprised if Farmer has any first-hand knowledge of the atmosphere in the QB room.
The only person in both the 2014 and 2015 QB room with the objectivity to compare them would be Connor Shaw.
So unless Shaw is Farmer's source, and I doubt he is, then my question remains.
I also started wondering last night whether the circumstances around the release of Tate were finding their way into the quote that war posted. Maybe you can look for any sign of this in the context of your replay.
Regardless, the statement says more about Farmer than it does either or both former Browns. If I were Haslam I would explain that to him.
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Also, holy crap on that naked bootleg where McCown out ran whoever that was and threw the laser beam TD. Even in a flag football league game that was a damn nice play.
I believe that was Kruger he outran.
Play shocked me as well. I did not know that was part of McCown's game. Added shock was that the old vet actually looked quick.
I believe that was Kruger he outran.
Play shocked me as well. I did not know that was part of McCown's game. Added shock was that the old vet actually looked quick.
I haven't really seen him play very much at all in recent years outside of highlights here and there. He used to be really quick and agile so it's good to see he hasn't lost very much of that.
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Also, holy crap on that naked bootleg where McCown out ran whoever that was and threw the laser beam TD. Even in a flag football league game that was a damn nice play.
I believe that was Kruger he outran.
Play shocked me as well. I did not know that was part of McCown's game. Added shock was that the old vet actually looked quick.
I believe that was Kruger he outran.
Play shocked me as well. I did not know that was part of McCown's game. Added shock was that the old vet actually looked quick.
yep....it was Kruger......really enjoyed that one......McCown showed good speed scrambling and lots of zip on that pass......twas nice!
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I kind of put it together with what he was saying in the interview (I believe the one during the scrimmage) about how well the QB room is going in that they are competitive, but push each other to ALL get better. I still have it recorded so I may have to find that spot for the exact wording he used. I know it was far different from the "sabotage" statement. That's a very strong word indeed and I assume he knew exactly what he was using it for.
To the point of my question...
I would be surprised if Farmer has any first-hand knowledge of the atmosphere in the QB room.
The only person in both the 2014 and 2015 QB room with the objectivity to compare them would be Connor Shaw.
So unless Shaw is Farmer's source, and I doubt he is, then my question remains.
I also started wondering last night whether the circumstances around the release of Tate were finding their way into the quote that war posted. Maybe you can look for any sign of this in the context of your replay.
Regardless, the statement says more about Farmer than it does either or both former Browns. If I were Haslam I would explain that to him.
To the point of my question...
I would be surprised if Farmer has any first-hand knowledge of the atmosphere in the QB room.
The only person in both the 2014 and 2015 QB room with the objectivity to compare them would be Connor Shaw.
So unless Shaw is Farmer's source, and I doubt he is, then my question remains.
I also started wondering last night whether the circumstances around the release of Tate were finding their way into the quote that war posted. Maybe you can look for any sign of this in the context of your replay.
Regardless, the statement says more about Farmer than it does either or both former Browns. If I were Haslam I would explain that to him.
What are you implying in the last paragraph? What does it say about Farmer? And how did Tate sabotage guys?
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