Can we all agree now that this defense needs tore the fuck up?

[Clevfan4life]

They'll rebuild just give it a few years. They can do so on the fly.

[sky]

Unfortunately I cannot agree the defensive players don't have skills to do better. being bad. The coaching staff in their infinite wisdom has changed the roles of a couple of players. When you see the leading defensive sack OLB going from only 2 sacks away from an all time Browns record last year to only 1/2 sack this year to date you need to look beyond the players. IF the fans start watching you can see the coaches have definitely changed Kruger's role and I would guess he's not happy about it. Bryant although he has 2 sacks is not a Paul Kruger. This coaching staff can't seem to take the talent they have and get it locked in. You don't see Houston changing the role of their OLB. If that position isn't broke, and I would say it wasn't broke last year then don't try to fix it.

When is the last time you saw a safety blitz from the Browns ? When's the last time you saw some well planned stunts. Coaching Coaching Coaching and Play calling. The coaches haven't got it together.

Look at the call in the second quarter to go for it on 4 down instead of taking the 3 points when your only down 2 scores, your going to get the ball in the 2nd half kickoff and your offense was week all first half. Yea coach go for it !!! Duh ! Thank goodness there was a penalty and we got 3. Not to mention the mental positive of scoring before the half than coming up empty.

When your quarterback is misfiring on all cylinders in the first quarter and shows no signs of improvement pull him and give #2 a try. You do it in every other position why not QB.

THIS IS COACHING AT IT'S WORST UNFORTUNATELY IF COMES TO LIGHT ON THE FIELD. The main objective of the coach is to give his team EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO WIN. Seems Browns coaches have this backward !!!

[nickers]

I still don't understand the reasoning for Phil Taylor not being here. While he was not the greatest NT.,, He wasn't the worst. And I still think he could've helped the Browns.. Another dumb move by Farmer.

[tiamat63]

@nickers said:

I still don't understand the reasoning for Phil Taylor not being here. While he was not the greatest NT.,, He wasn't the worst. And I still think he could've helped the Browns.. Another dumb move by Farmer.

Probably because he would have been out half of the year at minimum? But that's just a solid hunch.

[Manzier]

@nickers said:

I still don't understand the reasoning for Phil Taylor not being here.

Id ask his knee

[tiamat63]

@sky said:

IF the fans start watching you can see the coaches have definitely changed Kruger's role

Do tell?

[Clevfan4life]

Yeah I see them doing different things with Kruger but when he puts his hands down and rushes the edge he's still garbage. In fact his pass rushing skills look to have unimaginably regressed this year. I mean he's right awful. He has ZERO moves now. Armonty Bryant is levels above Kruger in terms of his pass rushing skills.

[Clevfan4life]

Khalil Mack put on a pass rushing clinic, we're lucky he only had two sacks yesterday.

[BrownsKidd]

@clevfan4life said:

Khalil Mack put on a pass rushing clinic, we're lucky he only had two sacks yesterday.

Just remember, Oakland had no sacks prior to playing us. That's telling on both sides.

[Clevfan4life]

@brownskidd said:

Just remember, Oakland had no sacks prior to playing us. That's telling on both sides.

I bet Mack was close if you look at their first 2 games. I'll bet he was disruptive. He didn't just think those moves up Sat night. Plus he was rated the #1 defensive rookie last year, already one of the best run stoppers in the game his freshman year. That's sick. I can see polished pass rushers doing alright their rookie year, but run stopping is a whole nother game. We really really really missed out on a special player.

[Tour2ma]

@jrb12711 said:

I think one guy it's time to examine out there on the field is Whitner. Love the dude and was way solid for several years, but he's starting to lose it now. Misses tackle like crazy, gets beat in coverage a lot, and just doesn't look quick out there. I think he's the best option as of this second but he's also becoming a glaring weakness.

This was the year Whitner was supposed to play within "the system"... not sure if that's a good or a bad thing at this point.

Hated his knocking the Brown off Reese. The one who was actually trying to tackle Reese. It was all in the name of trying to be "Hitner". A lot of big hitters wrapped as they hit so they'd ride the player to the ground... deliver one hit... get one free.

But he made good plays as well. Had Cooper blanketed on one play (shocked me).

After the D held OAK in the 2nd Qtr... Whitner came off the field, helmet off, screaming at the Offense. Then we roughed the Punter. I think that hurt the D as a whole, but it crushed Whitner. He was beaten badly in the resumed series.

@bbedward said:

Defense looks good in flashes, very inconsistent. More often bad than good, though.

Late yes, but for the bulk of the 1st half they held OAK to 3 points. Then gave up the TD on the resumed drive after the roughing. The last drive of the half, following our having to settle for the FG, was total deflation.

[tiamat63]

Brief thought from the rare couple of minutes I've gotten to watch the replay.

The amount of 2 gapping were asking of Shelton, and then players not entirely familiar with this system (Starks in particular) might be a tad of an issue in certain spots. He's holding his own in many instances, however a couple of the bigger runs from the 3 hole aren't because of a lack of effort or ability. He's consistently drawing double teams and its incredible with the lack of QB pressure/disruptions we've seen at other positions given Danny fulfilling his role.

[Mike H]

Fat ass Danny Shelton at No. 12 overall really helped the run defense. I'm not sure because I wasn't here, but I bet the majority of you pined for his selection. Guaranteed

Good player, not a Top 12 pick, and the team still ranks 32nd in run defense.

I realize it "takes more than one guy" but plenty of teams employ fat ass JAGS at 0 and 1 techs and are just fine. Danny is not Haloti Ngata or Vince Wilfork.

[jrb12711]

@tour2ma said:

But he made good plays as well. Had Cooper blanketed on one play (shocked me).

After the D held OAK in the 2nd Qtr... Whitner came off the field, helmet off, screaming at the Offense. Then we roughed the Punter. I think that hurt the D as a whole, but it crushed Whitner. He was beaten badly in the resumed series.

I won't go too much into it here, but this honestly goes with my opinion that the defense feeds off the offense/ST much more than the other way around. It's subjective so it's not a right or wrong thing, but I think defenses get so deflated when they do their job only to see the offense fail to do theirs

@mike-h said:

Fat ass Danny Shelton at No. 12 overall really helped the run defense. I'm not sure because I wasn't here, but I bet the majority of you pined for his selection. Guaranteed

Good player, not a Top 12 pick, and the team still ranks 32nd in run defense.

I realize it "takes more than one guy" but plenty of teams employ fat ass JAGS at 0 and 1 techs and are just fine. Danny is not Haloti Ngata or Vince Wilfork.

Shelton is playing okay, but getting better. The problem with the run defense is the same problem as last year. I'd say 95% of big runs so far have been on the edge because there's no one on the roster even close to having the ability to set it. I'd venture just ball parking it through three games 80% of runs to the edge have resulted in 5+ yard carries for the opposing offenses. That's something Shelton can't address at all.

[jrb12711]

@tour2ma said:

But he made good plays as well. Had Cooper blanketed on one play (shocked me).

After the D held OAK in the 2nd Qtr... Whitner came off the field, helmet off, screaming at the Offense. Then we roughed the Punter. I think that hurt the D as a whole, but it crushed Whitner. He was beaten badly in the resumed series.

I won't go too much into it here, but this honestly goes with my opinion that the defense feeds off the offense/ST much more than the other way around. It's subjective so it's not a right or wrong thing, but I think defenses get so deflated when they do their job only to see the offense fail to do theirs

@mike-h said:

Fat ass Danny Shelton at No. 12 overall really helped the run defense. I'm not sure because I wasn't here, but I bet the majority of you pined for his selection. Guaranteed

Good player, not a Top 12 pick, and the team still ranks 32nd in run defense.

I realize it "takes more than one guy" but plenty of teams employ fat ass JAGS at 0 and 1 techs and are just fine. Danny is not Haloti Ngata or Vince Wilfork.

Shelton is playing okay, but getting better. The problem with the run defense is the same problem as last year. I'd say 95% of big runs so far have been on the edge because there's no one on the roster even close to having the ability to set it. I'd venture just ball parking it through three games 80% of runs to the edge have resulted in 5+ yard carries for the opposing offenses. That's something Shelton can't address at all.

[Mike H]

@jrb12711 said:

Shelton is playing okay, but getting better. The problem with the run defense is the same problem as last year. I'd say 95% of big runs so far have been on the edge because there's no one on the roster even close to having the ability to set it. I'd venture just ball parking it through three games 80% of runs to the edge have resulted in 5+ yard carries for the opposing offenses. That's something Shelton can't address at all.

Depends on what you consider "The edge." I think using the phrase "the edge" is a (no offense) cop out that many use to try to understand what is happening. I'd consider most runs outside the tackles as the "edge," but some runs are going through the guards on misdirection or cutbacks (from what I have seen). I'll have to look into what exactly the edge is people keep talking about, and then pay closer attention to it this week during my film review.

It depends even further on how many of the big plays allowed (20+ yard runs) in the NFL come between the guards, or off the "edge." I'd bet a lot of money that most defenses that allow big chunk run plays have them develop on the "edge."

Good scheme + allegedly good players (and I think they are "good enough" to not be the worst looking rush defense in modern history)... It doesn't add up other than game planning. Which brings us to Jimmy O'Neil.

[gmp]

The Defense,

Offense,

Coaching staff,

Front Office

Owner

the ugly uni's and the first 20 rows of the DogPound!!

It all has to go!!!

[jrb12711]

@mike-h said:

Depends on what you consider "The edge." I think using the phrase "the edge" is a (no offense) cop out that many use to try to understand what is happening. I'd consider most runs outside the tackles as the "edge," but some runs are going through the guards on misdirection or cutbacks (from what I have seen). I'll have to look into what exactly the edge is people keep talking about, and then pay closer attention to it this week during my film review.

It depends even further on how many of the big plays allowed (20+ yard runs) in the NFL come between the guards, or off the "edge." I'd bet a lot of money that most defenses that allow big chunk run plays have them develop on the "edge."

Good scheme + allegedly good players (and I think they are "good enough" to not be the worst looking rush defense in modern history)... It doesn't add up other than game planning. Which brings us to Jimmy O'Neil.

I'm talking about runs off tackle, not so much cut backs and other situations like that. It seems like every run off tackle goes for 5+ with rare exceptions. I'd say more traditional "up the middle runs" have improved and while I admittedly don't look at DL closely as I can tell Shelton is drawing tons of double teams. I just think as I said we have absolutely zero players on the roster who fit the OLB/DE who can stop this from happening. Hell I'd say 5-7 times it's been schemed right and guys just aren't quick enough or just miss a tackle. That's the glaring problem in our defense, Mingo shouldn't even be on the field and Kruger really fits more as a situational player.

[Mudfly]

Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....

Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......

Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...

So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)

[Mike H]

@mudfly said:

Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....

Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......

Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...

So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)

Correlation does not always = causation. These stats are fine, but are not 100% correct because there's no context. A lot happens on a football play that can't be captured by "he ran left". Saying opponents can't run up the middle against a 3-4 defense is pretty useless... they are designed to force teams to run around their nose tackle. Danny has not been as disruptive as many thought he would be, although there were plenty of people saying to be cautious because he athleticism didn't show a Ngata type player.

But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.