Can we all agree now that this defense needs tore the fuck up?
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Shelton is playing okay, but getting better. The problem with the run defense is the same problem as last year. I'd say 95% of big runs so far have been on the edge because there's no one on the roster even close to having the ability to set it. I'd venture just ball parking it through three games 80% of runs to the edge have resulted in 5+ yard carries for the opposing offenses. That's something Shelton can't address at all.
Depends on what you consider "The edge." I think using the phrase "the edge" is a (no offense) cop out that many use to try to understand what is happening. I'd consider most runs outside the tackles as the "edge," but some runs are going through the guards on misdirection or cutbacks (from what I have seen). I'll have to look into what exactly the edge is people keep talking about, and then pay closer attention to it this week during my film review.
It depends even further on how many of the big plays allowed (20+ yard runs) in the NFL come between the guards, or off the "edge." I'd bet a lot of money that most defenses that allow big chunk run plays have them develop on the "edge."
Good scheme + allegedly good players (and I think they are "good enough" to not be the worst looking rush defense in modern history)... It doesn't add up other than game planning. Which brings us to Jimmy O'Neil.
Depends on what you consider "The edge." I think using the phrase "the edge" is a (no offense) cop out that many use to try to understand what is happening. I'd consider most runs outside the tackles as the "edge," but some runs are going through the guards on misdirection or cutbacks (from what I have seen). I'll have to look into what exactly the edge is people keep talking about, and then pay closer attention to it this week during my film review.
It depends even further on how many of the big plays allowed (20+ yard runs) in the NFL come between the guards, or off the "edge." I'd bet a lot of money that most defenses that allow big chunk run plays have them develop on the "edge."
Good scheme + allegedly good players (and I think they are "good enough" to not be the worst looking rush defense in modern history)... It doesn't add up other than game planning. Which brings us to Jimmy O'Neil.
I'm talking about runs off tackle, not so much cut backs and other situations like that. It seems like every run off tackle goes for 5+ with rare exceptions. I'd say more traditional "up the middle runs" have improved and while I admittedly don't look at DL closely as I can tell Shelton is drawing tons of double teams. I just think as I said we have absolutely zero players on the roster who fit the OLB/DE who can stop this from happening. Hell I'd say 5-7 times it's been schemed right and guys just aren't quick enough or just miss a tackle. That's the glaring problem in our defense, Mingo shouldn't even be on the field and Kruger really fits more as a situational player.
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Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....
Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......
Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...
So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)
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Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....
Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......
Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...
So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)
Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....
Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......
Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...
So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)
Correlation does not always = causation. These stats are fine, but are not 100% correct because there's no context. A lot happens on a football play that can't be captured by "he ran left". Saying opponents can't run up the middle against a 3-4 defense is pretty useless... they are designed to force teams to run around their nose tackle. Danny has not been as disruptive as many thought he would be, although there were plenty of people saying to be cautious because he athleticism didn't show a Ngata type player.
But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.
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I'll have to go back and rewatch, since it was my birthday weekend and I was slightly inebriated during the game...but from memory:
Haden is a shell of his former self.
Mingo does not deserve to be on an NFL field.
If not for Tramon Williams, I'd rate our defensive backfield in the bottom 10 of the league.
Our LB corps is incapable of filling or meeting backs at the line.
Our edge presence is negligible at best.
DB's and OLB's seem more content with taking on a block than attempting a tackle.
There were multiple occasions where Oakland would run off tackle and our OLB's would backpedal, ride the block and try to usher the RB toward the sideline rather than attack, hold ground, and force the RB to pick a lane. Same goes for playside DB's.
All around, I'd say our defense played in the 28th- 32nd in the league range.
Dead on the money right about the LB'ers meeting RB's at the line. I think I've seen it like less than 5 times over the last 2 years and half of that was from Robertson.
Dead on the money right about the LB'ers meeting RB's at the line. I think I've seen it like less than 5 times over the last 2 years and half of that was from Robertson.
I saw it five times in the first half... of course it was LBs in white doing it.
When is the last time you saw a safety blitz from the Browns ? When's the last time you saw some well planned stunts. Coaching Coaching Coaching and Play calling. The coaches haven't got it together.
Look at the call in the second quarter to go for it on 4 down instead of taking the 3 points when your only down 2 scores, your going to get the ball in the 2nd half kickoff and your offense was week all first half. Yea coach go for it !!! Duh ! Thank goodness there was a penalty and we got 3. Not to mention the mental positive of scoring before the half than coming up empty.
When your quarterback is misfiring on all cylinders in the first quarter and shows no signs of improvement pull him and give #2 a try. You do it in every other position why not QB.
Last Safety Blitz? Week 2 vs. TN. Issue vs. Carr was he was getting the ball out quickly. Blitz would not have changed that.
The 4th and Goal play call was there, but the guy with the ball forgot the snap count. The third and Goal play call was there, but the guy with the ball chose the wrong hole. The Second and goal play call was there-ish...
QB is unlike any other position when it comes to subs.
I still don't understand the reasoning for Phil Taylor not being here. While he was not the greatest NT.,, He wasn't the worst. And I still think he could've helped the Browns.. Another dumb move by Farmer.
It's not like Phil has been snapped up by anyone.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Dead on the money right about the LB'ers meeting RB's at the line. I think I've seen it like less than 5 times over the last 2 years and half of that was from Robertson.
I saw it five times in the first half... of course it was LBs in white doing it.
When is the last time you saw a safety blitz from the Browns ? When's the last time you saw some well planned stunts. Coaching Coaching Coaching and Play calling. The coaches haven't got it together.
Look at the call in the second quarter to go for it on 4 down instead of taking the 3 points when your only down 2 scores, your going to get the ball in the 2nd half kickoff and your offense was week all first half. Yea coach go for it !!! Duh ! Thank goodness there was a penalty and we got 3. Not to mention the mental positive of scoring before the half than coming up empty.
When your quarterback is misfiring on all cylinders in the first quarter and shows no signs of improvement pull him and give #2 a try. You do it in every other position why not QB.
Last Safety Blitz? Week 2 vs. TN. Issue vs. Carr was he was getting the ball out quickly. Blitz would not have changed that.
The 4th and Goal play call was there, but the guy with the ball forgot the snap count. The third and Goal play call was there, but the guy with the ball chose the wrong hole. The Second and goal play call was there-ish...
QB is unlike any other position when it comes to subs.
I still don't understand the reasoning for Phil Taylor not being here. While he was not the greatest NT.,, He wasn't the worst. And I still think he could've helped the Browns.. Another dumb move by Farmer.
It's not like Phil has been snapped up by anyone.
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Fat ass Danny Shelton at No. 12 overall really helped the run defense. I'm not sure because I wasn't here, but I bet the majority of you pined for his selection. Guaranteed
Good player, not a Top 12 pick, and the team still ranks 32nd in run defense.
I realize it "takes more than one guy" but plenty of teams employ fat ass JAGS at 0 and 1 techs and are just fine. Danny is not Haloti Ngata or Vince Wilfork.
Fat ass Danny Shelton at No. 12 overall really helped the run defense. I'm not sure because I wasn't here, but I bet the majority of you pined for his selection. Guaranteed
I was one...
Depends on what you consider "The edge." I think using the phrase "the edge" is a (no offense) cop out that many use to try to understand what is happening. I'd consider most runs outside the tackles as the "edge," but some runs are going through the guards on misdirection or cutbacks (from what I have seen). I'll have to look into what exactly the edge is people keep talking about, and then pay closer attention to it this week during my film review.
It depends even further on how many of the big plays allowed (20+ yard runs) in the NFL come between the guards, or off the "edge." I'd bet a lot of money that most defenses that allow big chunk run plays have them develop on the "edge."
And depending on how you define "big chunk" I might take most of that bet. Quick hitters between the tackles (definitely not "edge" runs) often pop for chunks.
The only edge runs in dispute would be ZBS cutbacks that end up being outside the trailing OT, but essential where the Center originally lined up.
In any case I know I for one will eagerly await the details uncovered in your film review... I've never seen any before.
Correlation does not always = causation. These stats are fine, but are not 100% correct because there's no context.
But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.
So in evaluating a single player's impact, detailed, out of context stats are trumped by the most macro stat of all? Interesting logic...
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Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....
Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......
Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...
So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)
Correlation does not always = causation. These stats are fine, but are not 100% correct because there's no context. A lot happens on a football play that can't be captured by "he ran left". Saying opponents can't run up the middle against a 3-4 defense is pretty useless... they are designed to force teams to run around their nose tackle. Danny has not been as disruptive as many thought he would be, although there were plenty of people saying to be cautious because he athleticism didn't show a Ngata type player.
But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.
But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.
Out of context?.....isnt the discussion about "where" they are running....and I simply gave the stats....
Make of them what you will, cause you seem to know everything.....
Did I say Shelton had massive impact?.....I think I said no large gains over the middle.....and questioned if it was due to Shelton/Starks?....perhaps you know the reason, cause last season they were tearing off huge chunks right up the middle and off left guard.....all ears as to why this has changed......get over yourself....
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There's zero official indication so far that Shelton can't be Ngata or Wilfork. Why say that about a guy three games into his career who's had two solid games consecutively now? You want him to fail.
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Speaking of our run defense, wasn't Kirksey being talked up by the coaches all offseason? I've hardly noticed him making any spectacular plays out there unless I'm missing them.
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I find it somewhat ironic that a few weeks back i said on here that J could never be "The One" if he did not get help from the OL, receivers, running game and a defense capable of stopping the other team. I was ridiculed unmercifully for making up excuses for him. And now what do I read? OL sucks, defense can't stop the Michelin man and the coaches need to go. All after losing a game by one interception at the end. All we need to add to this is the red queen chanting, "Off with their heads."
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I find it somewhat ironic that a few weeks back i said on here that J could never be "The One" if he did not get help from the OL, receivers, running game and a defense capable of stopping the other team. I was ridiculed unmercifully for making up excuses for him. And now what do I read? OL sucks, defense can't stop the Michelin man and the coaches need to go. All after losing a game by one interception at the end. All we need to add to this is the red queen chanting, "Off with their heads."
I find it somewhat ironic that a few weeks back i said on here that J could never be "The One" if he did not get help from the OL, receivers, running game and a defense capable of stopping the other team. I was ridiculed unmercifully for making up excuses for him.
That's because we'd already designated those to be josh excuses...
No copying allowed!
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Jabaal Sheard getting rave reviews in New England
www.waitingfornextyear.com
The article talks about how he was cheaper than Dwayne Bowe. And how Derek Carr was untouched Sunday.
The defense is who we we think they are
Farmer can't keep letting players go because of money
Sheard, Rubin, Skrine would have been better kept than let go.
Farmer is no General Manager. The product on the field is proof.
Two players Mack and Carr should have been Browns
Instead, we have a deficit of -2 in the first round that year.
Clearly the Browns are not a better team because of this year's draft.
Three games is all I need to say We Suck
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Yes, he is, you are not.
The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
Sheard has had only two tackles in each of three games.
One assist also, in each of the first two games.
I liked Skrine - most everybody did. He was short, and wanted
big money. I like Desir better - he is eventual starter cb material.
Desir is 6'2". Buster was barely? 5'9".
Meanwhile, Gilbert was going to finally start vs the Raiders....
but after two games with a hip flexor strain... he ended up
with a strained hammy on Thurs before the game.
Yes, the Browns would love to have Mack. And in retrospect, Carr
would never have had the failure of a first year like JM did.
Did you know that would happen? Nobody did. It was their
first draft. They didn't have the first round they would like to have had in 2014.
Everybody knows that NOW.
Bitching about for freaking ever, and ever, and ever, is bs.
they got THIS years first round excellently, I think, for the needs they had.Next year, I suppose a blue chip wr is in order, and qb, not necessarily in that order.
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Where'd that Gilbert info come from?
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Shelton didn't do shit and was beaten constantly. He can shove his lava lava and his Serpentini commercials.
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Shelton didn't do shit and was beaten constantly DH
********************************************
Shelton is a NT, not an offensive lineman.
Wrong guy....
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Shelton didn't do shit and was beaten constantly DH
********************************************
Shelton is a NT, not an offensive lineman.
Wrong guy....
Shelton is a NT....
Wrong guy....
.....and leads the entire D line in tackles......so, yeah, he's not playing well.....
also has as many or more combined tackles than Kruger, Kirksey, Orchard, Mingo, AB, ....(linebackers who are hired to tackle)
Not too bad for an inexperienced fat guy hired just to occupy space.....
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Looking at the rushing charts from the first 3 games, they were running over the right guard(with ease) and end for the most yards & attempts....
Mostly at Kruger, Bryant and Kirksey......
Oakland also went the other way....left.....and averaged 6-7 yards carry(Cooper really struggled).....while still pounding the ball over RG for a 12 yd average(mostly Hughes and Kirksey)...
So, while they definitely are exploiting the outside and breaking the edge, the truth is that they are seemingly running where ever they want.....(except the middle/left...no big gains there.....could that be due to Shelton & Starks???)...(yes)
Correlation does not always = causation. These stats are fine, but are not 100% correct because there's no context. A lot happens on a football play that can't be captured by "he ran left". Saying opponents can't run up the middle against a 3-4 defense is pretty useless... they are designed to force teams to run around their nose tackle. Danny has not been as disruptive as many thought he would be, although there were plenty of people saying to be cautious because he athleticism didn't show a Ngata type player.
But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.
Correlation does not always = causation. These stats are fine, but are not 100% correct because there's no context. A lot happens on a football play that can't be captured by "he ran left". Saying opponents can't run up the middle against a 3-4 defense is pretty useless... they are designed to force teams to run around their nose tackle. Danny has not been as disruptive as many thought he would be, although there were plenty of people saying to be cautious because he athleticism didn't show a Ngata type player.
But, continue using out of context stats to support Danny Shelton's massive impact on the Browns' rush defense. He's really helping... Actually, they got worse.
Danny and Starks are being asked to occupy and attack simultaneously because our ILB's are utter failures at filling.
If we can rush six on five and still be completely blocked, it should be telling about how incapable our LB's are at determining gaps and filling them.
As for your "edge" conversation, I feel we've had an equal distribution of off tackle runs bounced inside and out because our edge players are riding a block to the sideline in hopes that he'll get some backside fill help (which never ends up showing up).
The entire front seven is general is playing miserably - but I give a little leeway to Shelton and Starks because they're at least doing what they should be doing - eating up two blocks most of the time.
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Yes, he is, you are not.
The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
Sheard has had only two tackles in each of three games.
One assist also, in each of the first two games.
I liked Skrine - most everybody did. He was short, and wanted
big money. I like Desir better - he is eventual starter cb material.
Desir is 6'2". Buster was barely? 5'9".
Meanwhile, Gilbert was going to finally start vs the Raiders....
but after two games with a hip flexor strain... he ended up
with a strained hammy on Thurs before the game.
Yes, the Browns would love to have Mack. And in retrospect, Carr
would never have had the failure of a first year like JM did.
Did you know that would happen? Nobody did. It was their
first draft. They didn't have the first round they would like to have had in 2014.
Everybody knows that NOW.
Bitching about for freaking ever, and ever, and ever, is bs.
they got THIS years first round excellently, I think, for the needs they had.Next year, I suppose a blue chip wr is in order, and qb, not necessarily in that order.
And yet, somehow you must be wrong, TC...
Bitching about for freaking ever, and ever, and ever, is bs.
At least in this forum...
Sorry... could not resist.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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