You can't defend this circus anymore.

The Gipper

@canton-dawg said:

Great Post!

While listening to Bull & Fox yesterday, Adam "The Bull" did some research over the players drafted from 2010-2013 in the AFCN.

The Ratbirds still have 33% of those players on their roster.

The Stoolers still have 43% of those players on their roster.

The Bungholes still have 49% of those players on their roster.

The Browns only 18% of those players still on the roster.

It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that Cleveland can't fucking draft good players.

It's not a knock on Farmer because the 2014-2015 weren't included, but my gut feeling is he can't draft worth a shit either.

Haslam really needs to get a personnel guy that CAN evaluate talent.

Until he does, it's going to be Groundhog day all over again.

Tacosman

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I'll take a crack at this one.

Problems:

We're a team with a brand new offensive coordinator, a stable of unproven WR's, a journeyman QB, an offensive line learning a new system, and a defensive coordinator who is implementing a confusing system.

Answers:

Shut the fuck up and wait. No team that turns it around in one season is built for sustained success. No team that drafts a QB every two years is built for sustained success. No team that fires their head coach every other season is built for sustained success. So shut the fuck up and wait.

There's such a thing as firing a coordinator and not firing a head coach. Ask Baltimore, ask San Francisco...they did it a bunch of times. The only project that needs scrapped at this point in time is O'Neil, he's proven to be over his head. Pettine needs to relieve O'Neil of his playcalling duties and take control of his defense. Flip can handle the offense just fine on his own.

The problem with your "fire the coordinator, not the head coach" argument is that that is usually done with a head coach who has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD or is otherwise so highly thought of that more time and another chance is needed. We saw this with Baltimore and Harbaugh's offensive coordinator a few years ago for example. John Harbaugh had a proven record as a good head coach then. We also just saw it with detroit and a head coach who definately sucks(caldwell), and all indications are that he will be fired at the end of the year too. Jim Caldwell isnt going to get another season with detroit.

Mike Pettine doesn't have any such track record. He isn't on anyones radar as a promising head coach. What he is on his way to is getting shitcanned....and hopefully it happens at the end of this year and not later.

Mark O

@tacosman said:

Mike Pettine doesn't have any such track record. He isn't on anyones radar as a promising head coach. What he is on his way to is getting shitcanned....and hopefully it happens at the end of this year and not later.

And hire who? And how long does this guy get to turn everything around? It better not be very long before this new savior you propose we bring in turns the franchise around because its going to be a tough sell to the fans who buy the tickets to be patient while we "rebuild" once again.

The Gipper

@mark-o said:

And hire who? And how long does this guy get to turn everything around? It better not be very long before this new savior you propose we bring in turns the franchise around because its going to be a tough sell to the fans who buy the tickets to be patient while we "rebuild" once again.

How about this guy......or his clone:

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:
How about this guy......or his clone:

Interesting topic... not sure how many of yesteryears' "tyrannical" HCs would be successful in today's NFL.

Mark O

@tour2ma said:
Interesting topic... not sure how many of yesteryears' "tyrannical" HCs would be successful in today's NFL.

Nope.....Jim Harbaugh tried it, was successful for a bit but eventually realized he needs to go back to college so he can boss around the college kids.

And on a side note...that's truly my problem with every one of the "fire the coach" dweebs around here. They all shout all day about fire the coach, but no one has a suggestion on who should be the coach.

Opal312

I disagree. Someone is going and it's probably Pettine. I hope it's Farmer but someone is going. If they lose to the Cardinals someone is getting the axe!

Opal312

@mark-o said:

Nope.....Jim Harbaugh tried it, was successful for a bit but eventually realized he needs to go back to college so he can boss around the college kids.

And on a side note...that's truly my problem with every one of the "fire the coach" dweebs around here. They all shout all day about fire the coach, but no one has a suggestion on who should be the coach.

How about Greg Schiano? He was supposed to interview with Haslam but I think Banner put the kabash on it

Mark O

@opal312 said:
How about Greg Schiano? He was supposed to interview with Haslam but I think Banner put the kabash on it

Same problem... won't work in the NFL.

Mark O

@opal312 said:
I disagree. Someone is going and it's probably Pettine. I hope it's Farmer but someone is going. If they lose to the Cardinals someone is getting the axe!

I'll take that bet. IF we lose to the Cardinals, no one gets fired.

Zombo

@douche-nozzle said:

Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!

Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!

Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.

I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.

Summary:

If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!

If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.

"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.

Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.

Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

Zombo

Zombo

@douche-nozzle said:
Not exactly. I understand that repeating the same behavior and expected different results is insanity.......you don't get it! But then you are just a cheerleader.

Ha! I have ten times the football knowledge you, you dumb shit.

For example, I know that a guy who roots for a team that has failed to finish above .500 in two of the past three years, is headed for another subpar year and just lost to a one-win team is a dumbfuck for spending his time on another team's football board spewing out "knowledge" he knows absolutely nothing about.

You are really coming off as dumbfuck in these posts, might be time to go back into hiding until we need our next lesson from Captain dipshit.

Zombo

The Gipper

@douche-nozzle said:

All true but there are a couple issues at work which I'm guessing none of us are privy to or even able to fully understand.

First, you have someone making REALLY bad draft choices......but why? Whoever is thinking that "this guy can make the difference for us" is killing you because no single "guy" can turn this around. They need to trade all their 1st and 2nd round choices and use the resulting 10 picks for a couple years to build a foundation; then draft "the guy". But would the fans accept that? Indication are that, no, they wouldn't. I've heard a number of Browns fans emphatically present that after all the losing, they "deserve" to win NOW!,,,,,,But that doesn't change reality! It would be like me whining that I have spent $100 per week for 10 years playing the lottery and have still not won, so I "deserve" to win NOW..... But that does not change the odds of any given number or numbers to come up.......that's reality!

Second, this is only going to turn around if there is a long term plan which starts with selecting an unknown group of coaches (because known coaches won't come here) based on the belief that they will collectively work on a system and then give them the talent to make "that system" work. Yet it appears that the Browns choose coaches, and players, based on fan and media demand. Are the inmates running the asylum? How can the front office keep doing this year after year?

I don't think trading all of our first and second round picks is a prudent policy just because the past picks have not worked out.

....but then, that policy didn't do too badly for George Allen and the Redskins back in the day. They went a better part of a decade with no first round pick

.....but as you note....you really have to have a high quality personell evaluator to turn that trick.....and the Browns don't have that, clearly.

The Gipper

@douche-nozzle said:

Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!

Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!

Again, I think that they think that that is just what they are doing.

Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.

That is fairly incoherent... I hope most of the rest of your post clarifies that.

I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.

Yea, but who is playing this round? The owner/GM/HC? I mean, perhaps the owner is the guy that runs the course...and while he wants you to play well, he may only be concerned about collecting his greens fees. And maybe the GM is the starter.....he says.....look, I provide you all the green grass in front of you.....go be the next Arnold Palmer. So, clearly it is the coach who is the player......and his asst. coaches who are the caddies (and if they are of little help to you reading the greens, you change caddies at the turn? And the players are the clubs. Problem is, it not just that the guy is playing poorly....our guy seems to be playing without a driver or a putter. How do you get those? Keep going back to the pro shop?

Summary:

If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!

If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.

Sure.....but, as I said.....if that coach is not playing with a driver and a putter.....how good can he get until he gets the proper equipment.

The Gipper

Zombo said:

"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.

Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.

Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

Zombo

In his defense, I did ask him for his input.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?

I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.

Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially

The Gipper

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?

I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.

Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially

Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.

Mark O

@the-gipper said:
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.

And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.

Tour2ma

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?

I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.

Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially

Maybe... TC, but it occurred to me yesterday that perhaps Farmer is so enamored with finding gems no one else does, he tries to do that Day 1 as well and it leads to reaches.

Tour2ma

@mark-o said:
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.

Which player's chances do you like better?

Watkins getting healthy... or... Gilbert getting "it"?