You can't defend this circus anymore.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Not exactly. I understand that repeating the same behavior and expected different results is insanity.......you don't get it! But then you are just a cheerleader.
Ha! I have ten times the football knowledge you, you dumb shit.
For example, I know that a guy who roots for a team that has failed to finish above .500 in two of the past three years, is headed for another subpar year and just lost to a one-win team is a dumbfuck for spending his time on another team's football board spewing out "knowledge" he knows absolutely nothing about.
You are really coming off as dumbfuck in these posts, might be time to go back into hiding until we need our next lesson from Captain dipshit.
Zombo
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@douche-nozzle said:
All true but there are a couple issues at work which I'm guessing none of us are privy to or even able to fully understand.
First, you have someone making REALLY bad draft choices......but why? Whoever is thinking that "this guy can make the difference for us" is killing you because no single "guy" can turn this around. They need to trade all their 1st and 2nd round choices and use the resulting 10 picks for a couple years to build a foundation; then draft "the guy". But would the fans accept that? Indication are that, no, they wouldn't. I've heard a number of Browns fans emphatically present that after all the losing, they "deserve" to win NOW!,,,,,,But that doesn't change reality! It would be like me whining that I have spent $100 per week for 10 years playing the lottery and have still not won, so I "deserve" to win NOW..... But that does not change the odds of any given number or numbers to come up.......that's reality!
Second, this is only going to turn around if there is a long term plan which starts with selecting an unknown group of coaches (because known coaches won't come here) based on the belief that they will collectively work on a system and then give them the talent to make "that system" work. Yet it appears that the Browns choose coaches, and players, based on fan and media demand. Are the inmates running the asylum? How can the front office keep doing this year after year?
I don't think trading all of our first and second round picks is a prudent policy just because the past picks have not worked out.
....but then, that policy didn't do too badly for George Allen and the Redskins back in the day. They went a better part of a decade with no first round pick
.....but as you note....you really have to have a high quality personell evaluator to turn that trick.....and the Browns don't have that, clearly.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!
Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!
Again, I think that they think that that is just what they are doing.
Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.
That is fairly incoherent... I hope most of the rest of your post clarifies that.
I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.
Yea, but who is playing this round? The owner/GM/HC? I mean, perhaps the owner is the guy that runs the course...and while he wants you to play well, he may only be concerned about collecting his greens fees. And maybe the GM is the starter.....he says.....look, I provide you all the green grass in front of you.....go be the next Arnold Palmer. So, clearly it is the coach who is the player......and his asst. coaches who are the caddies (and if they are of little help to you reading the greens, you change caddies at the turn? And the players are the clubs. Problem is, it not just that the guy is playing poorly....our guy seems to be playing without a driver or a putter. How do you get those? Keep going back to the pro shop?
Summary:
If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!
If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.
Sure.....but, as I said.....if that coach is not playing with a driver and a putter.....how good can he get until he gets the proper equipment.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!
Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!
Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.
I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.
Summary:
If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!
If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.
"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.
Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.
Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."
Zombo
Zombo said:
"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.
Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.
Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."
Zombo
In his defense, I did ask him for his input.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Maybe... TC, but it occurred to me yesterday that perhaps Farmer is so enamored with finding gems no one else does, he tries to do that Day 1 as well and it leads to reaches.
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Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
Which player's chances do you like better?
Watkins getting healthy... or... Gilbert getting "it"?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Which player's chances do you like better?
Watkins getting healthy... or... Gilbert getting "it"?
Neither really...Watkins could just be one of those fragile guys (like our very own Courtney Brown). I keep reading that Gilbert looks great in practice but then he never sees the field during the game on defense.
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I think its funny that farmer always gets the blame for drafting bad picks... doesn't anyone think its possible that he is talking to the staff and selecting the players that the coaches say that they want? I'm not trying to give farmer a free pass or anything... I just find it odd that ppl want to say farmers ego got in the way and he had to draft a terrible player because he's such a douche
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Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
So? We coulda/shoulda taken Mack right?
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So? We coulda/shoulda taken Mack right?
Yup... should have sprinted to the stage with that ticket the second he fell to us.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
So? We coulda/shoulda taken Mack right?
Yup... should have sprinted to the stage with that ticket the second he fell to us.
Yup... should have sprinted to the stage with that ticket the second he fell to us.
Yep.... And on the Watkins side... Class act that one is:
Sammy Watkins rips fans in deleted postThe Bills WR posted an Instagram picture of him and his daughter at Disney World during Buffalo's bye week (the post has since been deleted) and called fans who questioned his durability "losers" and told them to "continue working y'all little jobs for the rest of y'all lives."
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I think its funny that farmer always gets the blame for drafting bad picks... doesn't anyone think its possible that he is talking to the staff and selecting the players that the coaches say that they want? I'm not trying to give farmer a free pass or anything... I just find it odd that ppl want to say farmers ego got in the way and he had to draft a terrible player because he's such a douche
I think its funny that farmer always gets the blame for drafting bad picks... doesn't anyone think its possible that he is talking to the staff and selecting the players that the coaches say that they want?
No, personnel decisions fall on the GM.
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I hear ya Canton... I guess I was just curious because everything I have heard from the mouths of our Draft personnel is that they handle everything by committee... and if that is true? Then it appears that players are being drafted that the coaches say that they want. Maybe they just need to leave the coaches at home come next draft?
I was always told while growing up, that the only way to evaluate a coach is to at least give them 3 years. GM's get 5 years. Right or wrong that used to be just the way it was or was supposed to be... idk
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I hear ya Canton... I guess I was just curious because everything I have heard from the mouths of our Draft personnel is that they handle everything by committee... and if that is true? Then it appears that players are being drafted that the coaches say that they want. Maybe they just need to leave the coaches at home come next draft?
I was always told while growing up, that the only way to evaluate a coach is to at least give them 3 years. GM's get 5 years. Right or wrong that used to be just the way it was or was supposed to be... idk
I hear ya Canton... I guess I was just curious because everything I have heard from the mouths of our Draft personnel is that they handle everything by committee... and if that is true? Then it appears that players are being drafted that the coaches say that they want. Maybe they just need to leave the coaches at home come next draft? I was always told while growing up, that the only way to evaluate a coach is to at least give them 3 years. GM's get 5 years. Right or wrong that used to be just the way it was or was supposed to be... idk
New owner, new HC, new GM, new OC, new DC, there's a bunch of on the job training going on.
I just hope things start to get better...soon.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
this is a damn good question. I really never thought about it like this before. Man this would really be damning of the owner if so.Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
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The Gilbert pick was on Pettine, all day. He says he wants a big athletic shut down corner to play his system, Gilbert's the guy, go get him.
Manziel? Can't see that being a Pettine pick. Maybe a Farmer pick, but most likely a Haslam pick.
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The Gilbert pick was on Pettine, all day. He says he wants a big athletic shut down corner to play his system, Gilbert's the guy, go get him.
Manziel? Can't see that being a Pettine pick. Maybe a Farmer pick, but most likely a Haslam pick.
The Gilbert pick was on Pettine, all day. He says he wants a big athletic shut down corner to play his system, Gilbert's the guy, go get him.
Manziel? Can't see that being a Pettine pick. Maybe a Farmer pick, but most likely a Haslam pick.
I'm not sure Pettine demands certain players - just attributes and skills to fit his scheme. I could see where he would want certain positions such as CB or DL, but saying he for sure wanted Gilbert and Gilbert only seems unlikely. Unless you have a link to a Pettine quote confirming..?
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