You can't defend this circus anymore.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!
Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!
Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.
I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.
Summary:
If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!
If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.
"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.
Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.
Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."
Zombo
Zombo said:
"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.
Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.
Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."
Zombo
In his defense, I did ask him for his input.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
Maybe... TC, but it occurred to me yesterday that perhaps Farmer is so enamored with finding gems no one else does, he tries to do that Day 1 as well and it leads to reaches.
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Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
Which player's chances do you like better?
Watkins getting healthy... or... Gilbert getting "it"?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Which player's chances do you like better?
Watkins getting healthy... or... Gilbert getting "it"?
Neither really...Watkins could just be one of those fragile guys (like our very own Courtney Brown). I keep reading that Gilbert looks great in practice but then he never sees the field during the game on defense.
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I think its funny that farmer always gets the blame for drafting bad picks... doesn't anyone think its possible that he is talking to the staff and selecting the players that the coaches say that they want? I'm not trying to give farmer a free pass or anything... I just find it odd that ppl want to say farmers ego got in the way and he had to draft a terrible player because he's such a douche
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Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.
So? We coulda/shoulda taken Mack right?
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So? We coulda/shoulda taken Mack right?
Yup... should have sprinted to the stage with that ticket the second he fell to us.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
So? We coulda/shoulda taken Mack right?
Yup... should have sprinted to the stage with that ticket the second he fell to us.
Yup... should have sprinted to the stage with that ticket the second he fell to us.
Yep.... And on the Watkins side... Class act that one is:
Sammy Watkins rips fans in deleted postThe Bills WR posted an Instagram picture of him and his daughter at Disney World during Buffalo's bye week (the post has since been deleted) and called fans who questioned his durability "losers" and told them to "continue working y'all little jobs for the rest of y'all lives."
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I think its funny that farmer always gets the blame for drafting bad picks... doesn't anyone think its possible that he is talking to the staff and selecting the players that the coaches say that they want? I'm not trying to give farmer a free pass or anything... I just find it odd that ppl want to say farmers ego got in the way and he had to draft a terrible player because he's such a douche
I think its funny that farmer always gets the blame for drafting bad picks... doesn't anyone think its possible that he is talking to the staff and selecting the players that the coaches say that they want?
No, personnel decisions fall on the GM.
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I hear ya Canton... I guess I was just curious because everything I have heard from the mouths of our Draft personnel is that they handle everything by committee... and if that is true? Then it appears that players are being drafted that the coaches say that they want. Maybe they just need to leave the coaches at home come next draft?
I was always told while growing up, that the only way to evaluate a coach is to at least give them 3 years. GM's get 5 years. Right or wrong that used to be just the way it was or was supposed to be... idk
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I hear ya Canton... I guess I was just curious because everything I have heard from the mouths of our Draft personnel is that they handle everything by committee... and if that is true? Then it appears that players are being drafted that the coaches say that they want. Maybe they just need to leave the coaches at home come next draft?
I was always told while growing up, that the only way to evaluate a coach is to at least give them 3 years. GM's get 5 years. Right or wrong that used to be just the way it was or was supposed to be... idk
I hear ya Canton... I guess I was just curious because everything I have heard from the mouths of our Draft personnel is that they handle everything by committee... and if that is true? Then it appears that players are being drafted that the coaches say that they want. Maybe they just need to leave the coaches at home come next draft? I was always told while growing up, that the only way to evaluate a coach is to at least give them 3 years. GM's get 5 years. Right or wrong that used to be just the way it was or was supposed to be... idk
New owner, new HC, new GM, new OC, new DC, there's a bunch of on the job training going on.
I just hope things start to get better...soon.
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Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
this is a damn good question. I really never thought about it like this before. Man this would really be damning of the owner if so.Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?
I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.
Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially
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The Gilbert pick was on Pettine, all day. He says he wants a big athletic shut down corner to play his system, Gilbert's the guy, go get him.
Manziel? Can't see that being a Pettine pick. Maybe a Farmer pick, but most likely a Haslam pick.
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The Gilbert pick was on Pettine, all day. He says he wants a big athletic shut down corner to play his system, Gilbert's the guy, go get him.
Manziel? Can't see that being a Pettine pick. Maybe a Farmer pick, but most likely a Haslam pick.
The Gilbert pick was on Pettine, all day. He says he wants a big athletic shut down corner to play his system, Gilbert's the guy, go get him.
Manziel? Can't see that being a Pettine pick. Maybe a Farmer pick, but most likely a Haslam pick.
I'm not sure Pettine demands certain players - just attributes and skills to fit his scheme. I could see where he would want certain positions such as CB or DL, but saying he for sure wanted Gilbert and Gilbert only seems unlikely. Unless you have a link to a Pettine quote confirming..?
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I'll take that bet. IF we lose to the Cardinals, no one gets fired.
If we lose the rest of our games, someone will get fired. Someone bettter get fired. It is quite possible we could lose out and then all hell will break lose...aye yi yi. when will this organization finally get this boat turned in the right direction?
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I specifically said he does not have a couple more job hops.
He was going to be fired in Miami. I don't care what their fans would tell me. That's a fact.
I also never denied LSU fans are pissed at him. But he did bring them a championship. He earned the right to do whatever he wants.
Back to the topic.
Parcells once said if I'm gonna be graded on how I cook the meal - you better let me buy the groceries. Who else besides Walter looks at a WR Corps that rarely ever scores TDs in the red zone and thinks - it's the damn coach not the GM.
Whether one wanted Manziel here or not - who thinks it was a fabulous idea to draft a QB that many of our scouts and coaches didn't want?
Who thinks Josh Gordon is REALLY going to be worth waiting for this time he screws up? "He's gonna" as it pertains to its tradition in Cleveland always means "he still hasn't." How many different colleges did he fool before our front office learned history repeats itself? Who saw a football soul in this guy?
These are first round draft picks in recent years:
Phil Taylor
Bark Mingo (let me guess - all he needed was to be taught how to tackle? Super, we can use him in coverage on passing downs)
Trent Richardson
Brandon Weeden
Cam Erving
Justin Gilbert
Johnny Manziel
Danny Shelton (first year he's been asked to run wind sprints between snaps so I'll wait this one out)
In a passing era we don't consider drafting WRs like Julio Jones, O'Dell Beckham, Allen Robinson, Mike Evans, Jarvis Landry, Keenan Allen especially when we can either wait until round 2 to draft Greg Little (so we can TEACH him how to catch a football) or sign a has-been FA like Dwayne Bowe that has no reason to care about suiting up. Anyone really think our only problem is the Head Coach?
Our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014:
Benjamin 3
Austin 2
Hawkins 2
Gabriel 1
Great reason for Farmer to be way too cool to try to help the QB position out in the red zone. COACHING is actually getting the ball to our best play makers (Barnidge & Benjamin) in the game plans; but teams can load up on them. We're stuck with 2 knee high slot receivers (trying to pawn one off as something different) that can't ever score TDs, break tackles or hurdle grass blades. Elusive?
Want to know what it's like playing gridiron chess in Cleveland? Challenge someone to a game of chess and let your opponent use all his attack pieces while you just use pawns. Let me know how smart you look at the end of that one. It's like being in the SEC and choosing to waste your scholarships on kids that should be playing Division III football while the competition is recruiting kids like Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, O'Dell Beckham, Jarvis Landry, AJ Green and Patrick's Peter's-son. Is this really that tough when I see Oakland drafting Khalil Mack and Derek Carr in 1 draft before drafting Amari Cooper and adding Michael Crabtree a year later. What do we do? We draft Justin Gilbert and a QB that creates another Armaggedon in the front office to the extent the coaching staff never wants to see what they have in him. That sucks for a lot more than 1 guy's future here. 1 coach hated it so much - he's now in an environment in Atlanta that will make him a Head Coaching Candidate with Julio Jones outside, Matt Ryan at QB and a RB capitalizing on all the Safety attention Julio steals as well as the zbs.
Since 1999, ownership in Cleveland hasn't quite figured out the difference between the illness killing this team and the inevitable symptoms of that. That's prolly why guys like AL Golden and Ken Whisenhunt are going to be the only ones interested in a Head Coaching vacancy here. We've watched countless Head Coaches get fired here since 1999; and yet it's never led to the upgrade worth keeping. What cracks me up is that guys like Walter White who HATE every single Head Coach the ownership selection criteria chooses - can't wait to get right back to the process they don't trust whatsoever. Make sense? It shouldn't...
Back to the topic.
Parcells once said if I'm gonna be graded on how I cook the meal - you better let me buy the groceries. Who else besides Walter looks at a WR Corps that rarely ever scores TDs in the red zone and thinks - it's the damn coach not the GM.
Whether one wanted Manziel here or not - who thinks it was a fabulous idea to draft a QB that many of our scouts and coaches didn't want?
Who thinks Josh Gordon is REALLY going to be worth waiting for this time he screws up? "He's gonna" as it pertains to its tradition in Cleveland always means "he still hasn't." How many different colleges did he fool before our front office learned history repeats itself? Who saw a football soul in this guy?
These are first round draft picks in recent years:
Phil Taylor
Bark Mingo (let me guess - all he needed was to be taught how to tackle? Super, we can use him in coverage on passing downs)
Trent Richardson
Brandon Weeden
Cam Erving
Justin Gilbert
Johnny Manziel
Danny Shelton (first year he's been asked to run wind sprints between snaps so I'll wait this one out)
In a passing era we don't consider drafting WRs like Julio Jones, O'Dell Beckham, Allen Robinson, Mike Evans, Jarvis Landry, Keenan Allen especially when we can either wait until round 2 to draft Greg Little (so we can TEACH him how to catch a football) or sign a has-been FA like Dwayne Bowe that has no reason to care about suiting up. Anyone really think our only problem is the Head Coach?
Our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014:
Benjamin 3
Austin 2
Hawkins 2
Gabriel 1
Great reason for Farmer to be way too cool to try to help the QB position out in the red zone. COACHING is actually getting the ball to our best play makers (Barnidge & Benjamin) in the game plans; but teams can load up on them. We're stuck with 2 knee high slot receivers (trying to pawn one off as something different) that can't ever score TDs, break tackles or hurdle grass blades. Elusive?
Want to know what it's like playing gridiron chess in Cleveland? Challenge someone to a game of chess and let your opponent use all his attack pieces while you just use pawns. Let me know how smart you look at the end of that one. It's like being in the SEC and choosing to waste your scholarships on kids that should be playing Division III football while the competition is recruiting kids like Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, O'Dell Beckham, Jarvis Landry, AJ Green and Patrick's Peter's-son. Is this really that tough when I see Oakland drafting Khalil Mack and Derek Carr in 1 draft before drafting Amari Cooper and adding Michael Crabtree a year later. What do we do? We draft Justin Gilbert and a QB that creates another Armaggedon in the front office to the extent the coaching staff never wants to see what they have in him. That sucks for a lot more than 1 guy's future here. 1 coach hated it so much - he's now in an environment in Atlanta that will make him a Head Coaching Candidate with Julio Jones outside, Matt Ryan at QB and a RB capitalizing on all the Safety attention Julio steals as well as the zbs.
Since 1999, ownership in Cleveland hasn't quite figured out the difference between the illness killing this team and the inevitable symptoms of that. That's prolly why guys like AL Golden and Ken Whisenhunt are going to be the only ones interested in a Head Coaching vacancy here. We've watched countless Head Coaches get fired here since 1999; and yet it's never led to the upgrade worth keeping. What cracks me up is that guys like Walter White who HATE every single Head Coach the ownership selection criteria chooses - can't wait to get right back to the process they don't trust whatsoever. Make sense? It shouldn't...
It does suck, if not the head coach, then who?. Because we keep drafting poorly and the fa's...yuckkkkkkkkk. This is pettines 2nd yr and at this point, it looks like we are going backwards and not foward..You just cannot afford to keep doing this, not in this division. Not saying it is pettines fault, but don't ya think someone is to blame here? We still stink, we are 2-5 and we lost our last 5 games last yr and got bounced out of the playoff picture. We still don't even have a future qb at this point...
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I'll take that bet. IF we lose to the Cardinals, no one gets fired.
If we lose the rest of our games, someone will get fired. Someone bettter get fired. It is quite possible we could lose out and then all hell will break lose...aye yi yi. when will this organization finally get this boat turned in the right direction?
If we lose the rest of our games, someone will get fired. Someone bettter get fired. It is quite possible we could lose out and then all hell will break lose...aye yi yi. when will this organization finally get this boat turned in the right direction?
That's not what you said. You said if we lose to the Cardinals someone is gettting fired.
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