Is it Ray Farmer or Mike Pettine who's responsible for this dumpster fire?

Canton Dawg

@thenew23 said:
I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."

That is certainly a plausible theory.

Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on the nobody's.

Canton Dawg

Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .

Ray Farmer, as it’s looking now, has had two fairly bad drafts in a row. His position with the franchise at this point should already be untenable.

Don’t take my word for it, let’s take a look at the two drafts that Farmer has had full control over and the status of the players taken:

Browns 2014 Draft Class:

1st Round (#8): CB Justin Gilbert: 3rd String Cornerback, Kick Returner

1st Round (#22): QB Johnny Manziel: Backup Quarterback

2nd Round (#35): OG Joel Bitonio: Starting Left Guard, Top 20 Guard Per PFF.

3rd Round (#71): ILB Christian Kirksey: Starting Inside Linebacker, Top Half Per PFF

3rd Round (#94): RB Terrance West: Traded To Titans where he is currently benched.

4th Round (#127): CB Pierre Desir: Backup Cornerback, has been a spot starter with Joe Haden constantly injured.

So out of six draft picks used in 2014 this draft, two are starting. One is performing at a high level (Bitonio), one around average for his position in the NFL (Kirksey). Two are backups (Manziel & Desir), one is a monumental bust (Gilbert) and one was traded away for being such a nightmare in the locker room (West).

Bottom line: One high level, impact starter so far out of six players. It’s worth noting that Farmer started this draft with 10 picks, and traded away or traded up to only take six players.

Browns 2015 Draft Class:

1st Round (#12): NT Danny Shelton: Starting Nose Tackle, ranked last among starting defensive tackles per PFF.

1st Round (#19): OL Cameron Erving: Backup offensive linemen

2nd Round (#51): OLB Nate Orchard: Backup outside linebacker

3rd Round (#77): RB Duke Johnson: Backup running back, but is used in an effective manner

3rd Round (#96): DT Xavier Cooper: Rotational defensive lineman, 2nd string.

4th Round (#115): S Ibraheim Campbell: Backup safety

4th Round (#123): WR Vince Mayle: Cut before season began.

6th Round (#189): CB Charles Gaines: IR, designated to return

6th Round (#195): FB Malcolm Johnson: Starting FB, among lowest ranked in pass and run blocking both by PFF

6th Round (#198): TE Randall Telfer: IR

7th Round (#219): ILB Hayes Pullard: Signed off Browns practice squad by the Jaguars

7th Round (#241): CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu: IR

Bottom Line: While Danny Shelton is starting, it’s difficult to make the case that he’s an impact player at this point. The Cam Erving pick might look good in a few years, but it doesn’t take away from how terrible a practice it is to take backup/developmental players in the first round. Duke Johnson is really the only player from this class who really affected the outcome of games in a positive way at this point.

Farmer started with 22 draft picks, and he got to pick 18 players in his two years as general manager. That is enough to reload and rebuild a franchise. Farmer could have put nearly half the players on the roster himself. The verdict here is a brutal one; out of 4 first round picks, only one is starting and he’s playing at a level comparable to the bottom players in the NFL at his position. Justin Gilbert is a total bust as a cornerback, Manziel and Erving backups. The West and Mayle picks are laughably awful. Joel Bitonio has been a stud, while Desir and Kirksey have been solid when they’ve played. Duke Johnson has shown flashes of excellence. Overall however, disappointment isn’t even a strong enough word for how badly Farmer whiffed with all those picks and how far back he has set this franchise through the draft.

Rest of the article can be found here:

http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/

miktoxic

@canton-mike said:

I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts.

Mike

first thing i thought of when i heard about his firing yesterday.

Clevfan4life

I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick.

miktoxic

@clevfan4life said:
I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick.

well considering the OL coach for the other team says just double-team shelton and we have nothing to worry about.......

no run blocking, no running backs, no pass rush, no pass rushers.........

The Gipper

@canton-dawg said:

That is certainly a plausible theory.

Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on them.

That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory. Like the theories that the earth was round, that there are black holes, and the Big Bang Theory.....it is a proven theory.

And it most closely represents the theory about black holes.

Tour2ma

@canton-dawg said:

Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .

Rest of the article can be found here:

http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/

Very similar to the take I posted a couple days ago, but I gave some consideration to Farmer being on the job only a short period before the 2014 draft.

But bottom line is Ray has not yet hit upon a true impact player yet. One, or more, may yet emerge out of his drafts, but none as of yet.

Mudfly

Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"

And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....

Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"

And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....

Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?

West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.

But then, some of that may be poor direction.

Mudfly

@the-gipper said:

West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.

Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)

@the-gipper said:
That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory.

Oh....wait....you did.....

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)

What do you consider high picks? 3rd/4th round as West and Mayle were?

Oh....wait....you did.....

Well....you seem to be saying that we don't know if these guys suck or if they are just not being given the opportunity.

Who the fuck are you? Luke McCown? "I bet those backups could really shine if they were just given a chance"

The coaching staff has not seen fit to put these guys in......so conclusion is that they suck.

But sure.....I am all for putting JMZ and Gilbert in to see what they can really do.

As someone said.... the worst we could do is we could lose by 24 instead of 17.

Mudfly

2014 "high" picks were Gilbert, Manziel(both very unproven)....Bito & Kirksey(definitely DONT suck).....and West(there's 1)

2015 high picks were Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke and Cooper.....so, which of these is proven to suck?

I see 1 guy(West) that might meet your "flat out suckage" comment......one

4th round is not a high pick......and not starting isnt "proof of flat out suckage"....

Mudfly

@the-gipper said:

@mudfly said:

...I am all for putting JMZ and Gilbert in to see what they can really do.

Why would you be all for playing them.....if it's already proven that they suck?????....makes no sense, at all.....

....but Ive made my point and know you are incapable of letting an argument go....so, rather than spend six pages debating it, Im out......

yap yap away Gip....

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

2014 "high" picks were Gilbert, Manziel(both very unproven)....Bito & Kirksey(definitely DONT suck).....and West(there's 1)

2015 high picks were Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke and Cooper.....so, which of these is proven to suck?

I see 1 guy(West) that might meet your "flat out suckage" comment......one

So you say anything round 1-3 is high? Beyond that, no?

4th round is not a high pick......and not starting isnt "proof of flat out suckage"....

No, but it IS evidence of it. (remember, you are dealing with a magistrate).

And further evidence may be revealed once they do hit the field.

But I certainly hope that once on that field that the evidence sine qua non, turns in their favor.

Mudfly

High picks....middle picks....late picks....

How can a 4th rounder be a high pick...?

Keep spinning it Gip...."flat out suckage" just became "evidence of possible suckage?"....hahaha.....lame

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

Why would you be all for playing them.....if it's already proven that they suck?????....makes no sense, at all.....

....but Ive made my point and know you are incapable of letting an argument go....so, rather than spend six pages debating it, Im out......

yap yap away Gip....

Because I am granting a reprieve and allowing for the fact that while a prima facie case may have been submitted, mere indicative evidence is not "proof". (except in the case of the two players who are gone....who you too must concede have had final judgment rendered their way).

The prosecution has had their turn....an acquittal though cannot be directed against them. I am allowing that they now should have their turn at presenting a rebuttal.

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

High picks....middle picks....late picks....

How can a 4th rounder be a high pick...?

Keep spinning it Gip...."flat out suckage" just became "evidence of possible suckage?"....hahaha.....lame

What is lame? My willingness to reconsider my position to give these players a chance...or your argument?...or your attitude?

bbedward

Can't we all just be friends and agree chilli has no place on spaghetti.

thenew23

Aha... there seems to be a split among the fans of who should own the blame...

Team Farmer or Team Pettine ??? Which side are you on???

Or will you defend neither?

miktoxic

i gotta kinda defend both.

now next year you'll be hearing it from me if something doesn't get done in the draft and FA and our 'unproven players from farmer's first draft are all playing in canada or on justin blackmon's porch.