Is it Ray Farmer or Mike Pettine who's responsible for this dumpster fire?
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Don't agree with everything in the article but this an alternative analysis of the difficulties the Browns have encountered this season. The media (looking at you Rizzo and Grossi) are placing the blame disproportionately on Farmer and glossing over Pettine's numerous mistakes. They're both new and inexperienced in their positions and will obviously make mistakes but blame needs to be spread equally.
Don't agree with everything in the article but this an alternative analysis of the difficulties the Browns have encountered this season. The media (looking at you Rizzo and Grossi) are placing the blame disproportionately on Farmer and glossing over Pettine's numerous mistakes. They're both new and inexperienced in their positions and will obviously make mistakes but blame needs to be spread equally.
but everyone needs a chance to learn as they grow into these positions.
hell if they hired you and expected no mistakes and got canned after a year and a half you'd say you got a raw deal.
cinci doesn't do it. pitt doesn't do it. and even the ravens for how many years now? let's keep firing and hiring and show those other teams that consistently knock us down the basement steps that we know better than them!!!!
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I couldnt' make it past the accusation that Pettine isn't helping Josh Gordon succeed. You can just stop reading right there because some mail room chimp typed that up by banging on the keyboard lots. Someone should be fired from life for having that opinion. There's only one person in this world who's getting in Josh Gordons way..............3 guesses everyone, 3 guesses.
1. the pope
2. samuel l. jackson
3. josh gordon. maybe?
1. the pope
2. samuel l. jackson
3. josh gordon. maybe?
1)nope
2)uh uh
3) how's it go? winner winner something dinner?
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Don't agree with everything in the article but this an alternative analysis of the difficulties the Browns have encountered this season. The media (looking at you Rizzo and Grossi) are placing the blame disproportionately on Farmer and glossing over Pettine's numerous mistakes. They're both new and inexperienced in their positions and will obviously make mistakes but blame needs to be spread equally.
but everyone needs a chance to learn as they grow into these positions.
hell if they hired you and expected no mistakes and got canned after a year and a half you'd say you got a raw deal.
cinci doesn't do it. pitt doesn't do it. and even the ravens for how many years now? let's keep firing and hiring and show those other teams that consistently knock us down the basement steps that we know better than them!!!!
but everyone needs a chance to learn as they grow into these positions.
hell if they hired you and expected no mistakes and got canned after a year and a half you'd say you got a raw deal.
cinci doesn't do it. pitt doesn't do it. and even the ravens for how many years now? let's keep firing and hiring and show those other teams that consistently knock us down the basement steps that we know better than them!!!!
Agree that impulsive firing isn't the way to go but it appears to me that Farmer has the upper hand in that building ( Joe Thomas doesn't go on the trading block, without even informing Pettine is all the evidence you need) and he'll say he needs to appoint his own coach to prove his methods work (or fail).
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I do agree somewhat that Pettine hasn't exactly "been kind" to the guys with high talent levels, but less-than-ideal attitudes, while also being overly kind to the less talented guys who work hard...
There are guys who do not excel at practice, but are absolute gamers when it counts. It just happens... Gordon being our most recent example...
IF Farmer is supplying the talent, which is still arguable, and Pettine refuses to focus on developing those guys then it is fully on Pettine. Which may be true...
The other side of the coin is Farmer is supplying garbage, and Pettine is doing his best to work with what he has...
I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."
I don't know, but if I have guys like Gilbert or Manziel, I would be trying to squeeze every bit of talent out of them rather than sticking them at the bottom of the depth chart and telling them they need to "work harder." Why?... Because talent wins in the NFL... Having a good attitude doesn't... or to put it another way, I'd rather have a group of guys who practice like sh** and win on Sundays, than a bunch of hard-working blue-collar guys who can't get the job done... any day...
I'm not around the team everyday so I don't know what's true, but hopefully our owner is around enough to see what's going on and is able to get some good advice about what changes need to / should be made...
#Justsayin' -
1)nope
2)uh uh
3) how's it go? winner winner something dinner?
Sushi.....sushi dinner.
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I do agree somewhat that Pettine hasn't exactly "been kind" to the guys with high talent levels, but less-than-ideal attitudes, while also being overly kind to the less talented guys who work hard...
There are guys who do not excel at practice, but are absolute gamers when it counts. It just happens... Gordon being our most recent example...
IF Farmer is supplying the talent, which is still arguable, and Pettine refuses to focus on developing those guys then it is fully on Pettine. Which may be true...
The other side of the coin is Farmer is supplying garbage, and Pettine is doing his best to work with what he has...
I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."
I don't know, but if I have guys like Gilbert or Manziel, I would be trying to squeeze every bit of talent out of them rather than sticking them at the bottom of the depth chart and telling them they need to "work harder." Why?... Because talent wins in the NFL... Having a good attitude doesn't... or to put it another way, I'd rather have a group of guys who practice like sh** and win on Sundays, than a bunch of hard-working blue-collar guys who can't get the job done... any day...
I'm not around the team everyday so I don't know what's true, but hopefully our owner is around enough to see what's going on and is able to get some good advice about what changes need to / should be made...
I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."
And right there is a deeper, more thoughtful paragraph than any in that so-called article...
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Just a thought after reading that article...
At the Cards' game, season ticket holders were given Browns' Yearbooks. As I browsed through it (will have to look at it more closely), our coaching staff as a group is VERY inexperienced at the NFL level. I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts.
Mike
IN DORSEY I TRUST -
Just a thought after reading that article...
At the Cards' game, season ticket holders were given Browns' Yearbooks. As I browsed through it (will have to look at it more closely), our coaching staff as a group is VERY inexperienced at the NFL level. I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts.
Mike
Gotta say, Pettine seems to REALLY promote and compliment guys like Carder, Meder, D Winn & Solomon.....
While not having much good to say about the silver spoons of a Manziel, Gilbert or Bowe....
Just a thought after reading that article.... I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators
Good thought Mike......Chud was brought into Indy as an "Asst HC"....and now has stepped into the OC role.....
Maybe we could use a similar guy here.....though Flip seems to be doing ok(now) and, Id think, Pet should be considered Oneils mentor.....(would be kinda weird to bring in another defensive mind, no?)
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I do agree somewhat that Pettine hasn't exactly "been kind" to the guys with high talent levels, but less-than-ideal attitudes, while also being overly kind to the less talented guys who work hard...
There are guys who do not excel at practice, but are absolute gamers when it counts. It just happens... Gordon being our most recent example...
IF Farmer is supplying the talent, which is still arguable, and Pettine refuses to focus on developing those guys then it is fully on Pettine. Which may be true...
The other side of the coin is Farmer is supplying garbage, and Pettine is doing his best to work with what he has...
I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."
I don't know, but if I have guys like Gilbert or Manziel, I would be trying to squeeze every bit of talent out of them rather than sticking them at the bottom of the depth chart and telling them they need to "work harder." Why?... Because talent wins in the NFL... Having a good attitude doesn't... or to put it another way, I'd rather have a group of guys who practice like sh** and win on Sundays, than a bunch of hard-working blue-collar guys who can't get the job done... any day...
I'm not around the team everyday so I don't know what's true, but hopefully our owner is around enough to see what's going on and is able to get some good advice about what changes need to / should be made...
That is certainly a plausible theory.I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."
Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on the nobody's.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .
Ray Farmer, as it’s looking now, has had two fairly bad drafts in a row. His position with the franchise at this point should already be untenable.
Don’t take my word for it, let’s take a look at the two drafts that Farmer has had full control over and the status of the players taken:
Browns 2014 Draft Class:
1st Round (#8): CB Justin Gilbert: 3rd String Cornerback, Kick Returner
1st Round (#22): QB Johnny Manziel: Backup Quarterback
2nd Round (#35): OG Joel Bitonio: Starting Left Guard, Top 20 Guard Per PFF.
3rd Round (#71): ILB Christian Kirksey: Starting Inside Linebacker, Top Half Per PFF
3rd Round (#94): RB Terrance West: Traded To Titans where he is currently benched.
4th Round (#127): CB Pierre Desir: Backup Cornerback, has been a spot starter with Joe Haden constantly injured.
So out of six draft picks used in 2014 this draft, two are starting. One is performing at a high level (Bitonio), one around average for his position in the NFL (Kirksey). Two are backups (Manziel & Desir), one is a monumental bust (Gilbert) and one was traded away for being such a nightmare in the locker room (West).
Bottom line: One high level, impact starter so far out of six players. It’s worth noting that Farmer started this draft with 10 picks, and traded away or traded up to only take six players.
Browns 2015 Draft Class:
1st Round (#12): NT Danny Shelton: Starting Nose Tackle, ranked last among starting defensive tackles per PFF.
1st Round (#19): OL Cameron Erving: Backup offensive linemen
2nd Round (#51): OLB Nate Orchard: Backup outside linebacker
3rd Round (#77): RB Duke Johnson: Backup running back, but is used in an effective manner
3rd Round (#96): DT Xavier Cooper: Rotational defensive lineman, 2nd string.
4th Round (#115): S Ibraheim Campbell: Backup safety
4th Round (#123): WR Vince Mayle: Cut before season began.
6th Round (#189): CB Charles Gaines: IR, designated to return
6th Round (#195): FB Malcolm Johnson: Starting FB, among lowest ranked in pass and run blocking both by PFF
6th Round (#198): TE Randall Telfer: IR
7th Round (#219): ILB Hayes Pullard: Signed off Browns practice squad by the Jaguars
7th Round (#241): CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu: IR
Bottom Line: While Danny Shelton is starting, it’s difficult to make the case that he’s an impact player at this point. The Cam Erving pick might look good in a few years, but it doesn’t take away from how terrible a practice it is to take backup/developmental players in the first round. Duke Johnson is really the only player from this class who really affected the outcome of games in a positive way at this point.
Farmer started with 22 draft picks, and he got to pick 18 players in his two years as general manager. That is enough to reload and rebuild a franchise. Farmer could have put nearly half the players on the roster himself. The verdict here is a brutal one; out of 4 first round picks, only one is starting and he’s playing at a level comparable to the bottom players in the NFL at his position. Justin Gilbert is a total bust as a cornerback, Manziel and Erving backups. The West and Mayle picks are laughably awful. Joel Bitonio has been a stud, while Desir and Kirksey have been solid when they’ve played. Duke Johnson has shown flashes of excellence. Overall however, disappointment isn’t even a strong enough word for how badly Farmer whiffed with all those picks and how far back he has set this franchise through the draft.
Rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Just a thought after reading that article...
At the Cards' game, season ticket holders were given Browns' Yearbooks. As I browsed through it (will have to look at it more closely), our coaching staff as a group is VERY inexperienced at the NFL level. I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts.
Mike
I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts.
Mike
first thing i thought of when i heard about his firing yesterday.
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I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick.
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I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick.
I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick.
well considering the OL coach for the other team says just double-team shelton and we have nothing to worry about.......
no run blocking, no running backs, no pass rush, no pass rushers.........
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That is certainly a plausible theory.I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."
Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on the nobody's.
That is certainly a plausible theory.
Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on them.
That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory. Like the theories that the earth was round, that there are black holes, and the Big Bang Theory.....it is a proven theory.
And it most closely represents the theory about black holes.
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Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .
Ray Farmer, as it’s looking now, has had two fairly bad drafts in a row. His position with the franchise at this point should already be untenable.
Don’t take my word for it, let’s take a look at the two drafts that Farmer has had full control over and the status of the players taken:
Browns 2014 Draft Class:
1st Round (#8): CB Justin Gilbert: 3rd String Cornerback, Kick Returner
1st Round (#22): QB Johnny Manziel: Backup Quarterback
2nd Round (#35): OG Joel Bitonio: Starting Left Guard, Top 20 Guard Per PFF.
3rd Round (#71): ILB Christian Kirksey: Starting Inside Linebacker, Top Half Per PFF
3rd Round (#94): RB Terrance West: Traded To Titans where he is currently benched.
4th Round (#127): CB Pierre Desir: Backup Cornerback, has been a spot starter with Joe Haden constantly injured.
So out of six draft picks used in 2014 this draft, two are starting. One is performing at a high level (Bitonio), one around average for his position in the NFL (Kirksey). Two are backups (Manziel & Desir), one is a monumental bust (Gilbert) and one was traded away for being such a nightmare in the locker room (West).
Bottom line: One high level, impact starter so far out of six players. It’s worth noting that Farmer started this draft with 10 picks, and traded away or traded up to only take six players.
Browns 2015 Draft Class:
1st Round (#12): NT Danny Shelton: Starting Nose Tackle, ranked last among starting defensive tackles per PFF.
1st Round (#19): OL Cameron Erving: Backup offensive linemen
2nd Round (#51): OLB Nate Orchard: Backup outside linebacker
3rd Round (#77): RB Duke Johnson: Backup running back, but is used in an effective manner
3rd Round (#96): DT Xavier Cooper: Rotational defensive lineman, 2nd string.
4th Round (#115): S Ibraheim Campbell: Backup safety
4th Round (#123): WR Vince Mayle: Cut before season began.
6th Round (#189): CB Charles Gaines: IR, designated to return
6th Round (#195): FB Malcolm Johnson: Starting FB, among lowest ranked in pass and run blocking both by PFF
6th Round (#198): TE Randall Telfer: IR
7th Round (#219): ILB Hayes Pullard: Signed off Browns practice squad by the Jaguars
7th Round (#241): CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu: IR
Bottom Line: While Danny Shelton is starting, it’s difficult to make the case that he’s an impact player at this point. The Cam Erving pick might look good in a few years, but it doesn’t take away from how terrible a practice it is to take backup/developmental players in the first round. Duke Johnson is really the only player from this class who really affected the outcome of games in a positive way at this point.
Farmer started with 22 draft picks, and he got to pick 18 players in his two years as general manager. That is enough to reload and rebuild a franchise. Farmer could have put nearly half the players on the roster himself. The verdict here is a brutal one; out of 4 first round picks, only one is starting and he’s playing at a level comparable to the bottom players in the NFL at his position. Justin Gilbert is a total bust as a cornerback, Manziel and Erving backups. The West and Mayle picks are laughably awful. Joel Bitonio has been a stud, while Desir and Kirksey have been solid when they’ve played. Duke Johnson has shown flashes of excellence. Overall however, disappointment isn’t even a strong enough word for how badly Farmer whiffed with all those picks and how far back he has set this franchise through the draft.
Rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/
Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .
Rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/
Very similar to the take I posted a couple days ago, but I gave some consideration to Farmer being on the job only a short period before the 2014 draft.
But bottom line is Ray has not yet hit upon a true impact player yet. One, or more, may yet emerge out of his drafts, but none as of yet.
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Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"
And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....
Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?
Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"
And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....
Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?
West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
But then, some of that may be poor direction.
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Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"
And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....
Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?
West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
But then, some of that may be poor direction.
West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory.
Oh....wait....you did.....
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West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory.
Oh....wait....you did.....
Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
What do you consider high picks? 3rd/4th round as West and Mayle were?
Oh....wait....you did.....
Well....you seem to be saying that we don't know if these guys suck or if they are just not being given the opportunity.
Who the fuck are you? Luke McCown? "I bet those backups could really shine if they were just given a chance"
The coaching staff has not seen fit to put these guys in......so conclusion is that they suck.
But sure.....I am all for putting JMZ and Gilbert in to see what they can really do.
As someone said.... the worst we could do is we could lose by 24 instead of 17.
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2014 "high" picks were Gilbert, Manziel(both very unproven)....Bito & Kirksey(definitely DONT suck).....and West(there's 1)
2015 high picks were Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke and Cooper.....so, which of these is proven to suck?
I see 1 guy(West) that might meet your "flat out suckage" comment......one
4th round is not a high pick......and not starting isnt "proof of flat out suckage"....
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