Jonathan Paul Manziel
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It wasn't unfair and there's no excuses.
Whoever the starting quarterback is, whether McCown or Manziel, are subject to the same level of evaluation and scrutiny.
I'm in favor of evaluating Manziel for the back 7 though, that'll give us more than enough to know who we have.
Reasons are not excuses. There is an overarching reason that the Bengals won. They are a much better team, especially last night with so many Browns starters out.
Johnny isn't paid to catch passes or make tackles. McCown would have lost last night, too. But to not start Johnny now, at 2-7, with nothing to lose, would be a terrible decision (glad you agree) . I say this knowing full well Johnny might not be the guy, but at least try to find out one way or the other.
Reasons are not excuses. There is an overarching reason that the Bengals won. They are a much better team, especially last night with so many Browns starters out.
If you say missing starters was a contributing reason as to why the Bengals beat us... that is one thing.
But once you cross into it being a reason it is "hard to judge" a player, you are in the excuse business. Either that or your sole basis for QB evaluation is W/L... in which case you are no evaluator.
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I thought Pettine sounded like an idiot, even borderline like an a**hole when he made those comments about Manziel. Couldn't even give him credit...
and to "Tour," You don't get credit for cleaning up the mess you created; however, but you ONLY get credit for the end results, no matter how you achieve them. Pettine's hubris and "little man syndrome" are going to cost him a job...
I thought Pettine sounded like an idiot, even borderline like an a**hole when he made those comments about Manziel. Couldn't even give him credit...
and to "Tour," You don't get credit for cleaning up the mess you created; however, but you ONLY get credit for the end results, no matter how you achieve them. Pettine's hubris and "little man syndrome" are going to cost him a job...
not here it won't. it'll cost johnny a plane ticket out of town before it does pettine.
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Would you keep playing him even if Josh is healthy at this point?
As long as we are not mathematically eliminated, I go with the best QB on our roster.
Dalton looked good last night because they didn't ask him to do anything besides hand off, throw quick slants, and pick up a few yards when it all fell apart. Sadly, that's all it took to beat us.
Yet there was a moment, a series when he looked rattled. I think it was their 3 & Out, 2nd series. hen we started the next series with an earth-shaking tackle... and a taunting call...
As long as we are not mathematically eliminated, I go with the best QB on our roster.
Yet there was a moment, a series when he looked rattled. I think it was their 3 & Out, 2nd series. Then we started the next series with an earth-shaking tackle... and a taunting call...
Dammit Tour, mathematically eliminated, or for all practical intents and purposes eliminated? 7-0 to have a remote prayer- really? With the Jets, Raiders, and Chargers all having wild card tiebreakers on us? That they would even entertain trading Joe Thomas tells me all I need to know about what Farmer is thinking.
If Pettine thinks (possibly) winning two more games with McCown is going to save his job- it won't. He's responsible for that disaster of a defense I'm seeing week after week.
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wrong.
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I thought Pettine sounded like an idiot, even borderline like an a**hole when he made those comments about Manziel. Couldn't even give him credit...
and to "Tour," You don't get credit for cleaning up the mess you created; however, but you ONLY get credit for the end results, no matter how you achieve them. Pettine's hubris and "little man syndrome" are going to cost him a job...
not here it won't. it'll cost johnny a plane ticket out of town before it does pettine.
I forget who said it on the radio today, but it went like this.not here it won't. it'll cost johnny a plane ticket out of town before it does pettine.
If Pettine starts Josh the rest of the year and they go winless, McCown will lose his job.
If Pettine starts Johnny the rest of the year and they go winless, Manziel & Pettine will be out of a job.
One or two of these guys won't be back next year.
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a bad draft pick that has issues on and off the field does not lay in the lap of the head coach.
lord knows that some of the supporters of the browns that frequent this site know more than professionals hired by supposed professionals to lead this team.
hell, let's just have haslam go door to door and hire 'mr. dog-bone hat' to guide this team out of the ground.
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This is the biggest pussy thread of all time.
Pettine is right anyway. If you can't make plays in the pocket you can't be an NFL QB.
Zombo said:
I don't know, Kaepernick and Griffin's careers seem on the upswing.
Zombo
Gotta agree....right there.....
The only "running QB's who have ever been quality NFL players(and there are only a few) all were adept at playing IN the pocket and only broke containment as a last resort.....all the rest flashed, then faded.....
One thing about staying in the pocket is that you can see the whole field......run right and you lose 60-75% of your options immediately....and if you have poor field vision(which I believe Manziel does) then you see even less.....
23,
Hubris? Starting to see that tossed Pet's way a bit and I simply do not see it. AS for credit giving, I remember the first words out of his mouth being along the lines of "He's made some plays...". Those don't count?
Lastly, I said "Hero points" for a reason. Folks were heaping extra praise on throws that should have been routine. It's all part of the "excitement factor" that is self-generated out of incompetence.
One thing about staying in the pocket is that you can see the whole field......run right and you lose 60-75% of your options immediately....
Not if you throw back, against the grain... because we all know that is a proven recipe...
Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
Doubtful... The only "style" Pet ultimately cares about is production while taking care of the ball. While Wilson's rookie 2.5% INT rate would be higher than Pet would like, Flynn's was higher.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
As long as we are not mathematically eliminated, I go with the best QB on our roster.
Yet there was a moment, a series when he looked rattled. I think it was their 3 & Out, 2nd series. Then we started the next series with an earth-shaking tackle... and a taunting call...
Dammit Tour, mathematically eliminated, or for all practical intents and purposes eliminated? 7-0 to have a remote prayer- really? With the Jets, Raiders, and Chargers all having wild card tiebreakers on us? That they would even entertain trading Joe Thomas tells me all I need to know about what Farmer is thinking.
If Pettine thinks (possibly) winning two more games with McCown is going to save his job- it won't. He's responsible for that disaster of a defense I'm seeing week after week.
Dammit Tour, mathematically eliminated, or for all practical intents and purposes eliminated? 7-0 to have a remote prayer- really? With the Jets, Raiders, and Chargers all having wild card tiebreakers on us? That they would even entertain trading Joe Thomas tells me all I need to know about what Farmer is thinking.
If Pettine thinks (possibly) winning two more games with McCown is going to save his job- it won't. He's responsible for that disaster of a defense I'm seeing week after week.
Easy, h... I was asked and I answered.
I doubt my opinion is going to be much a factor... even if it should be...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
23,
Hubris? Starting to see that tossed Pet's way a bit and I simply do not see it. AS for credit giving, I remember the first words out of his mouth being along the lines of "He's made some plays...". Those don't count?
Lastly, I said "Hero points" for a reason. Folks were heaping extra praise on throws that should have been routine. It's all part of the "excitement factor" that is self-generated out of incompetence.
One thing about staying in the pocket is that you can see the whole field......run right and you lose 60-75% of your options immediately....
Not if you throw back, against the grain... because we all know that is a proven recipe...
Pettine would still be rolling with Matt Flynn over Russell Wilson if he was in Seattle.
Doubtful... The only "style" Pet ultimately cares about is production while taking care of the ball. While Wilson's rookie 2.5% INT rate would be higher than Pet would like, Flynn's was higher.
Lastly, I said "Hero points" for a reason. Folks were heaping extra praise on throws that should have been routine. It's all part of the "excitement factor" that is self-generated out of incompetence.
A TD is a TD no matter how you get it. I'd love to have a more "traditional" QB but I would never try to "calm down" Manziel... In practice, you point out the mistakes and coach him to "calm down," but not when he's getting it done on gameday. A good coach would adjust HIS thinking to do whatever he needs to keep his guy rolling...
Not to mention, he's not the 1st QB who missed a couple open receivers in his 3rd NFL start...
Im not pro Manziel or anti Pettine, I just would like to see all our guys play/coach better.
#Justsayin' -
The turning point & as I say "the moment our D started feeling so damn sorry for themselves than the wheels come off" was the AJ Green sideline out that got them out of the hole & Before we could play only as good as the next play Boom the Reverse. This D has so many ways of proving we cant win a game. I got to go with playing JM only with a scheme that fits his size, designed rollouts & you got to let him create what he sees. If I got to watch this D lose games than at least give me something that might excite me till that next beer. No fanboy that's reserved for C. Cook or P. Lynch.
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Lastly, I said "Hero points" for a reason. Folks were heaping extra praise on throws that should have been routine. It's all part of the "excitement factor" that is self-generated out of incompetence.
A TD is a TD no matter how you get it. I'd love to have a more "traditional" QB but I would never try to "calm down" Manziel... In practice, you point out the mistakes and coach him to "calm down," but not when he's getting it done on gameday. A good coach would adjust HIS thinking to do whatever he needs to keep his guy rolling...
Not to mention, he's not the 1st QB who missed a couple open receivers in his 3rd NFL start...
Im not pro Manziel or anti Pettine, I just would like to see all our guys play/coach better.
A TD is a TD no matter how you get it. I'd love to have a more "traditional" QB but I would never try to "calm down" Manziel... In practice, you point out the mistakes and coach him to "calm down," but not when he's getting it done on gameday. A good coach would adjust HIS thinking to do whatever he needs to keep his guy rolling...
Not to mention, he's not the 1st QB who missed a couple open receivers in his 3rd NFL start...
Im not pro Manziel or anti Pettine, I just would like to see all our guys play/coach better.
Johnny's a smart kid. He needs to watch game films of his OWN mistakes. My bet is he'll learn more from watching his own shortcomings last night than watching McCown or another QB's play. The more the kid plays, the more he'll learn. Call it OJT. Does that mean he'll "get it"? We'll never know unless he learns first hand, ON the field.I would like to think that either our keeping or parting company with Johnny would be based more on performance, or lack of same.
Pettine, just ONCE, needs to include in his post game comments that the DEFENSE needs to be addressed, & then ADDRESS it! Regardless what any of us may think about not blowing things up, he is slowly burying himself. His post game demeanor alone doesn't speak well for him, his confidence, or his determination.
Mike
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As long as we are not mathematically eliminated, I go with the best QB on our roster.
Yet there was a moment, a series when he looked rattled. I think it was their 3 & Out, 2nd series. Then we started the next series with an earth-shaking tackle... and a taunting call...
Dammit Tour, mathematically eliminated, or for all practical intents and purposes eliminated? 7-0 to have a remote prayer- really? With the Jets, Raiders, and Chargers all having wild card tiebreakers on us? That they would even entertain trading Joe Thomas tells me all I need to know about what Farmer is thinking.
If Pettine thinks (possibly) winning two more games with McCown is going to save his job- it won't. He's responsible for that disaster of a defense I'm seeing week after week.
Dammit Tour, mathematically eliminated, or for all practical intents and purposes eliminated? 7-0 to have a remote prayer- really? With the Jets, Raiders, and Chargers all having wild card tiebreakers on us? That they would even entertain trading Joe Thomas tells me all I need to know about what Farmer is thinking.
If Pettine thinks (possibly) winning two more games with McCown is going to save his job- it won't. He's responsible for that disaster of a defense I'm seeing week after week.
That was a low point for me as well, the Thomas trade that never happened. Should have never hit the airwaves.
Team needs a spark big time. I thought Manziel looked much improved from last year. Whoever made the comment that he would make one read and go into punt return mode last year, but now being more patient and cerebral, l think l noticed that too last night.
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Lastly, I said "Hero points" for a reason. Folks were heaping extra praise on throws that should have been routine. It's all part of the "excitement factor" that is self-generated out of incompetence.
A TD is a TD no matter how you get it. I'd love to have a more "traditional" QB but I would never try to "calm down" Manziel... In practice, you point out the mistakes and coach him to "calm down," but not when he's getting it done on gameday. A good coach would adjust HIS thinking to do whatever he needs to keep his guy rolling...
Not to mention, he's not the 1st QB who missed a couple open receivers in his 3rd NFL start...
Im not pro Manziel or anti Pettine, I just would like to see all our guys play/coach better.
A TD is a TD no matter how you get it. I'd love to have a more "traditional" QB but I would never try to "calm down" Manziel... In practice, you point out the mistakes and coach him to "calm down," but not when he's getting it done on gameday. A good coach would adjust HIS thinking to do whatever he needs to keep his guy rolling...
Bullshit... it's the difference between pro ball and playground ball. Plus neither of us know how many other plays were missed and not realized on the run.
If you want to stick to a coaching point about keeping your QB "pumped up" that's one thing, but "all's well that ends well"??? That ain't going to fly.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
CINCINNATI -- The Cleveland Browns do not want to harness Johnny Manziel into being a pure pocket passer.
Coach Mike Pettine said his halftime remark Thursday night that Manziel needed to "settle down" came from the fact that Manziel missed some reads in the first half.
"By no means was that a comment designed that we wanted him to stay in the pocket," Pettine said the day after the Browns' 31-10 loss to the Bengals. "But when there's a play to be made early, let's make them."
Pettine's "settle down" remark came on NFL Network as he left the field at halftime with the Browns trailing 14-10. Manziel had just guided a 92-yard touchdown drive, and the Browns were in the game. Manziel did little scrambling the second half, and NFL Network analyst Marshall Faulk implied on the postgame show that Pettine was restraining Manziel.
Pettine seemed happy to be able to explain that was not the case. He said he was simply referring to some first-half check downs and shorter throws that might not have made a highlight reel but might have gotten first downs or kept drives alive -- and put Manziel at less risk.
"I think we all agree here that you can't put your quarterback on the run all the time," Pettine said.
The Browns spent a lot of time in the offseason and training camp trying to make Manziel a better pocket passer. Manziel responded and has earned praise from teammates and coaches for his efforts.
But the conundrum with his skills is similar to when he was drafted: He is effective when he improvises, but NFL offenses are structured, and the risk of injury increases with improvisation. The challenge becomes managing his ability to move with the need to protect his long-term health, while also operating the offense as it's been practiced for months.
"[Pocket passing] is an area of his game we want to develop," Pettine said, "and have it be complemented by his ability outside the pocket."
Manziel's final numbers came to 15-for-33 for 168 yards with one TD and no interceptions. His rating: 71.3.
Manziel was not helped by his receivers, whom Pettine said as a group did not play well. Taylor Gabriel did not make a catch on a potential touchdown early then had three drops later. Gary Barnidge slipped coming out of a break on one throw. Isaiah Crowell slipped running a screen pass that had potential for big yardage.
But Pettine added that Manziel tried to do too much in the second half, which implies he pressed after the first couple of possessions did not go well. His numbers in the second half plummeted to 4-for-15 for 40 yards.
"I thought in the second half they did a good job of taking away the first read initially," Pettine said. "I thought they did a better job of kind of staying in rush lanes and bottling him up."
Pettine added that successful NFL quarterbacks "have to operate from the pocket." If Manziel does that to go along with his running, "then you get the best of both worlds."
As for who starts against Pittsburgh on Nov. 15 -- Manziel or Josh McCown -- Pettine said he will meet with offensive coordinator John DeFilippo next week to make that decision.
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A TD is a TD no matter how you get it. I'd love to have a more "traditional" QB but I would never try to "calm down" Manziel... In practice, you point out the mistakes and coach him to "calm down," but not when he's getting it done on gameday. A good coach would adjust HIS thinking to do whatever he needs to keep his guy rolling...
Bullshit... it's the difference between pro ball and playground ball. Plus neither of us know how many other plays were missed and not realized on the run.
If you want to stick to a coaching point about keeping your QB "pumped up" that's one thing, but "all's well that ends well"??? That ain't going to fly.
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Why the fuck was Manziel drafted here if they're trying to completely change his game?
Why the fuck was Manziel drafted here if they're trying to completely change his game?
Exactly
Zombo said:
Manziel blows.
Farmer blows.
Hopefully 9-7 gets us in the dance.
Z
You're high if you think the Browns have 7 more wins in them this year
Johnny's a smart kid. He needs to watch game films of his OWN mistakes. My bet is he'll learn more from watching his own shortcomings last night than watching McCown or another QB's play. The more the kid plays, the more he'll learn. Call it OJT. Does that mean he'll "get it"? We'll never know unless he learns first hand, ON the field.I would like to think that either our keeping or parting company with Johnny would be based more on performance, or lack of same.
Pettine, just ONCE, needs to include in his post game comments that the DEFENSE needs to be addressed, & then ADDRESS it! Regardless what any of us may think about not blowing things up, he is slowly burying himself. His post game demeanor alone doesn't speak well for him, his confidence, or his determination.
Mike
^ defensive guru Mike needs to address in a big way- what's wrong with his highly paid defense-it sucks swampwater
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Dammit Tour, mathematically eliminated, or for all practical intents and purposes eliminated? 7-0 to have a remote prayer- really? With the Jets, Raiders, and Chargers all having wild card tiebreakers on us? That they would even entertain trading Joe Thomas tells me all I need to know about what Farmer is thinking.
If Pettine thinks (possibly) winning two more games with McCown is going to save his job- it won't. He's responsible for that disaster of a defense I'm seeing week after week.
Easy, h... I was asked and I answered.
I doubt my opinion is going to be much a factor... even if it should be...
Easy, h... I was asked and I answered.
I doubt my opinion is going to be much a factor... even if it should be...
Tour- here's my take- Pettine may be thinking "mathematical" elimination. There's a "mathematical" possibility the earth could get hit by an asteroid before the year is over. I'm putting my money on the asteroid.
Got a feeling butthead Mike is going to trot out Josh against the Squealers- because "he gives us the best chance to win". It's a new mantra- and it's wearing pretty thin.
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Easy, h... I was asked and I answered.
I doubt my opinion is going to be much a factor... even if it should be...
Tour- here's my take- Pettine may be thinking "mathematical" elimination. There's a "mathematical" possibility the earth could get hit by an asteroid before the year is over. I'm putting my money on the asteroid.
Got a feeling butthead Mike is going to trot out Josh against the Squealers- because "he gives us the best chance to win". It's a new mantra- and it's wearing pretty thin.
Tour- here's my take- Pettine may be thinking "mathematical" elimination. There's a "mathematical" possibility the earth could get hit by an asteroid before the year is over. I'm putting my money on the asteroid.
Got a feeling butthead Mike is going to trot out Josh against the Squealers- because "he gives us the best chance to win". It's a new mantra- and it's wearing pretty thin.
I'm actually hoping McCown is ready for Pittsburgh. I'm so sick and tired of "gotta see what the kid has" bullshit. We seen what he has. He's o e of the leagues better backups by what I've witnessed so far. And that's really good to see seeing that's his job this year. He improved 10 points on cinncy from last year and had 5 first downs by the middle of the second quarter. And cinncy is a much better team. It's not hisfault the rest of the team ddidn't help him out. I.e. <40 yrds rushing from the rbs for the 3 rd game this season. And absolutely no halftime adjustment or answers, again from the coaching staff.
Hard to see it from this year but I truly believe this group is trying to Change the mindset of the organization. This team needs victories. Plain and simple. McCown is the 5 million dollar man and he's been playing like it. I actually believe if we win any more games this year it's going to be because of the qb carrying them to victory. And that's a tough task and I think McCown is much better suited for it. But I trust that John M can come in and play clean enough to hope for some help else where in backup situations. Progression is everything in the nfl and atough I've been a hater of JM as of late I can not deny he's made significant progress. But like I said even at the risk of draft position this team needs victories.
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Rich Eisen: So, was he improved as a quarterback from the last time you saw him?
Dre Kirkpatrick: I feel like he improved but I feel like they (the Browns' staff) don't let him be Johnny, you know? I feel like they want him to be a pocket quarterback, which I don't think Johnny's a pocket quarterback. He made a completion on me, I think it was like the first play of the game on a slant. I didn't even see him, I just saw the ball. I just feel like, just let him be Johnny and he'll be alright. But, I'm just happy we got the win last night and he wasn't Johnny.
Interesting take from the Bengals CB. Thoughts? I agree with him myself. Johnny needs to mature off the field no doubt, but I also think he showed some flashes on the field.
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