Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Who cares
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Rich Eisen: So, was he improved as a quarterback from the last time you saw him?
Dre Kirkpatrick: I feel like he improved but I feel like they (the Browns' staff) don't let him be Johnny, you know? I feel like they want him to be a pocket quarterback, which I don't think Johnny's a pocket quarterback. He made a completion on me, I think it was like the first play of the game on a slant. I didn't even see him, I just saw the ball. I just feel like, just let him be Johnny and he'll be alright. But, I'm just happy we got the win last night and he wasn't Johnny.
Interesting take from the Bengals CB. Thoughts? I agree with him myself. Johnny needs to mature off the field no doubt, but I also think he showed some flashes on the field.
Rich Eisen: So, was he improved as a quarterback from the last time you saw him?
Dre Kirkpatrick: I feel like he improved but I feel like they (the Browns' staff) don't let him be Johnny, you know? I feel like they want him to be a pocket quarterback, which I don't think Johnny's a pocket quarterback. He made a completion on me, I think it was like the first play of the game on a slant. I didn't even see him, I just saw the ball. I just feel like, just let him be Johnny and he'll be alright. But, I'm just happy we got the win last night and he wasn't Johnny.
Interesting take from the Bengals CB. Thoughts? I agree with him myself. Johnny needs to mature off the field no doubt, but I also think he showed some flashes on the field.
Who cares
I care- and if Pettine wants to pound a square peg into a round hole- it's not going to work. In the first half I saw some of the old Johnny "College" Football.
On NFLN I think it was Irvin who said- if the Browns give up on Johnny- some other team will take a chance on him.
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Rich Eisen: So, was he improved as a quarterback from the last time you saw him?
Dre Kirkpatrick: I feel like he improved but I feel like they (the Browns' staff) don't let him be Johnny, you know? I feel like they want him to be a pocket quarterback, which I don't think Johnny's a pocket quarterback. He made a completion on me, I think it was like the first play of the game on a slant. I didn't even see him, I just saw the ball. I just feel like, just let him be Johnny and he'll be alright. But, I'm just happy we got the win last night and he wasn't Johnny.
Interesting take from the Bengals CB. Thoughts? I agree with him myself. Johnny needs to mature off the field no doubt, but I also think he showed some flashes on the field.
Who cares
I care- and if Pettine wants to pound a square peg into a round hole- it's not going to work. In the first half I saw some of the old Johnny "College" Football.
On NFLN I think it was Irvin who said- if the Browns give up on Johnny- some other team will take a chance on him.
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I think Faulk also was wondering why they want to keep JM in the pocket.
I think it's pretty telling that Kirkpatrick said he couldn't see Johnny, just the ball coming out.
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
I like the insight. And Johnny does throw an excellent quick slant, as the ball comes out very quickly and quite hot. My question is, when are we going to get a guy that can catch that quick slant and then break a tackle or two? How many times has Benjamin caught that quick slant and ALMOST broke it? And when I say "break it", I mean just break a tackle or two. And honestly, Benjamin has been close to catching that pass and going all the way. It happened last game, actually. He caught a quick slant and just about broke a tackle, and with his speed, he would've had a huge gain.
But he didn't break the tackle, and he doesn't usually break the tackle. Why? Because he's tiny, like just about every other freaking WR on our team. I absolutely hate to say this...it hurts to mention...but where is this team with Josh Gordon? Where are we with a guy that scares the pants off of defensive coordinators? And yeah, I know we can't even begin to count on Gordon, but quite frankly, he's a big reason why we can't win games. WE DON'T HAVE ANY PLAYMAKERS. We don't have a guy who is going to bring that contested TD pass down (see Taylor Gabriel on our FG drive). Sure, Barnidge has been amazing, but even he is a stretch.
You don't just draft a quarterback and say, "Whew...we did it. We're good now." You draft a QB, and then you build AROUND HIM. Johnny had Mike Evans in college, and had many spectacular plays where he basically threw a jumpball to him. Who on this team can come down with that kind of pass? Who can routinely catch a pass, make a move, and get to the house. We all know hindsight is 20/20, but come ON Ray Farmer. You trade up to get Manziel when both Derek Carr and Teddy Twatwater are available? You neglect to draft a WR like Allen Robinson, but make a trade to get a RB like Terence West? The Dwayne Bowe monster contract? I mean, what the heck. And I realize that Shelton plays a rather unglamorous position, but what has he really done? I think he plays around 30% of the defensive snaps (I'm not totally sure on this, but I'm close). So we have a first round pick that plays about a third of the game, and another first round pick that doesn't even PLAY.
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Canton Dawg...I coudn't agree more, but the pocket was often disrupted WAY too early, and it broke down too much...even when the Bengals rushed 3 or 4. Heck, there was one play where the Bengals rushed THREE and the DT sacked Manziel. And it was a sack that he couldn't come close to avoiding. Our probowl lineman Alex Mack just passed off the rusher to...to...nobody. It was sad. And another thing, there aren't many QB's in the LEAGUE that can move the ball consistently without a running game, and probably zero second-year QB's. We ran the ball ONE TIME in the second half. How is that possible?
Yes, Manziel needs to develop more in the pocket. Most people would totally agree on that. But when receivers aren't making plays, there is absolutely NO running game, and nobody is open when you're in the pocket...what is the kid supposed to do? Did anyone else notice that our WR's weren't ever open? How many passes were batted down by the Bengals because Johnny had to squeeze it in to an impossible window?
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I keep saying it over and over again but a short QB will not see short receivers by staying in the pocket.
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
He did. His shitty receievers dropped that ball. Fran Tarkenton. Biran Sipe.
:neutral_face: -
Canton Dawg...I coudn't agree more, but the pocket was often disrupted WAY too early, and it broke down too much...even when the Bengals rushed 3 or 4. Heck, there was one play where the Bengals rushed THREE and the DT sacked Manziel. And it was a sack that he couldn't come close to avoiding. Our probowl lineman Alex Mack just passed off the rusher to...to...nobody. It was sad. And another thing, there aren't many QB's in the LEAGUE that can move the ball consistently without a running game, and probably zero second-year QB's. We ran the ball ONE TIME in the second half. How is that possible?
Yes, Manziel needs to develop more in the pocket. Most people would totally agree on that. But when receivers aren't making plays, there is absolutely NO running game, and nobody is open when you're in the pocket...what is the kid supposed to do? Did anyone else notice that our WR's weren't ever open? How many passes were batted down by the Bengals because Johnny had to squeeze it in to an impossible window?
Your absolutely correct, we have not one standout skill position player (except Barnidge). But that's something we all knew heading into this season, (thanks Ray). Unfortunately for Johnny, the Bengals implemented the defensive strategy of keeping him in the pocket in the second half of the game. With very good results. Guess what, all of the upcoming defensive coordinators are going to do? Until we get some offensive weapons, and the defense learns how to make a stop, this shit is going to continue.Canton Dawg...I coudn't agree more, but the pocket was often disrupted WAY too early, and it broke down too much...even when the Bengals rushed 3 or 4. Heck, there was one play where the Bengals rushed THREE and the DT sacked Manziel. And it was a sack that he couldn't come close to avoiding. Our probowl lineman Alex Mack just passed off the rusher to...to...nobody. It was sad. And another thing, there aren't many QB's in the LEAGUE that can move the ball consistently without a running game, and probably zero second-year QB's. We ran the ball ONE TIME in the second half. How is that possible?
Yes, Manziel needs to develop more in the pocket. Most people would totally agree on that. But when receivers aren't making plays, there is absolutely NO running game, and nobody is open when you're in the pocket...what is the kid supposed to do? Did anyone else notice that our WR's weren't ever open? How many passes were batted down by the Bengals because Johnny had to squeeze it in to an impossible window?
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Let me point something out to everyone about our "defensive minded coach", and after you read this, you will probably be as mad as I am because it's simple football, yet it's something that happens far too often to us. Here we go:
On an early drive in the first quarter, the Bengals found themselves on a 3rd and 11, deep inside their own territory. I believe the score was still 0-0 (so you know it was early). Our DC decides to blitz TWO defensive backs, Williams and Campbell, in an effort to stymie the Bengals' drive. As a result, our DT/OLB Armonty Bryant was left to cover Marvin Jones. That was not a typo. We sent not one, but TWO DB's after the quarterback, leaving a 255 pound defender scrambling to cover the elusive Marvin Jones. The result? Jones runs a quick slant, Dalton delivers an easy strike, and the play goes for approximately 30 yards.
Guys, that's like JV football crap right there. It's such an easy pitch and catch that I can't believe to imagine how our coach did not see it ahead of time. If you don't believe me, go and look for yourself. Armonty Bryant is not supposed to be able to stop that kind of route, and why would you do that on 3rd down and long anyways? That quick slant takes hardly any time to execute, so no blitz in the world could get there quickly enough.
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I saw that play, and I'm thinking WTF? May as well had Danny Shelton covering his ass.
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Let me point something out to everyone about our "defensive minded coach", and after you read this, you will probably be as mad as I am because it's simple football, yet it's something that happens far too often to us. Here we go:
On an early drive in the first quarter, the Bengals found themselves on a 3rd and 11, deep inside their own territory. I believe the score was still 0-0 (so you know it was early). Our DC decides to blitz TWO defensive backs, Williams and Campbell, in an effort to stymie the Bengals' drive. As a result, our DT/OLB Armonty Bryant was left to cover Marvin Jones. That was not a typo. We sent not one, but TWO DB's after the quarterback, leaving a 255 pound defender scrambling to cover the elusive Marvin Jones. The result? Jones runs a quick slant, Dalton delivers an easy strike, and the play goes for approximately 30 yards.
Guys, that's like JV football crap right there. It's such an easy pitch and catch that I can't believe to imagine how our coach did not see it ahead of time. If you don't believe me, go and look for yourself. Armonty Bryant is not supposed to be able to stop that kind of route, and why would you do that on 3rd down and long anyways? That quick slant takes hardly any time to execute, so no blitz in the world could get there quickly enough.
I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
What should Pettine do? He didn't tell him to taunt or line up offsides? Bench him the rest of the game? Turbin didn't play at all on Thursday and I'm pretty sure we all know why..
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
He did. His shitty receievers dropped that ball. Fran Tarkenton. Biran Sipe.
He did. His shitty receievers dropped that ball. Fran Tarkenton. Biran Sipe.
Tarkenton & Sipe could throw from the pocket.
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Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
This is right on point.
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None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
Not so fast. Read what you're actually responding to.
The team that drafted Manziel should have had this thought out long before midway through season #2 of the QB they prioritized high enough to be the 2nd QB drafted in round 1. It should have been all set before he was announced as our draft pick. That's not any fan's fault in here.
If this defense is going to continue to forfeit any chances of winning by perpetuating a 32nd ranked defense, schematically speaking - you might want to get that to the extent it doesn't matter which QB starts.
If we're gonna lose with a 36 year old QB having trouble surviving 2 different starts (NY & Arizona) already - there's nothing wrong with fans wanting to see more than 4 starts in 2 years from a first round QB before this franchise flushes another first round pick down the toilet that it could ill-afford to do. How about being pissed at the alleged Democracy that prioritized Manziel ahead of 2 other QBs while there isn't a sum of 2 testicles willing to coach up this investment through the types of growing pains Jax went through with their 3rd overall pick (Bortles), who's 2 years older than Manziel. Oakland had some growing pains with Carr as well or we wouldn't have seen Jax drafting 3rd again in 2015 with Oakland drafting 4th. Ever hear the saying "No Guts - No Glory?"
When Marvin Lewis is saying we gotta figure out a way to keep Manziel in the pocket in the second half - should we feel happy Pettine was also saying that? Which defensive minded coach was being the knucklehead? My guess is it was the Head Coach that felt compelled to re-wire his QB at halftime and it worked just as perfectly as you wanted it to. Dallas fans hated Troy Aikman when he was 4 starts old too - to the extent they thought Jimmy Johnson was out of his mind for not agreeing with them that Steve Walsh was obviously their future. The good news for all those posing for Jeff Foxworthy jokes in Dallas is that Head Coach had the grapefruits to endure the growing pains. He understood "no guts - no glory." Marty Shottenheimer didn't want to throw his 5'11" QB out in San Diego after Brees' 3rd NFL season ended with SD sporting the worst record in the NFL via QB stats looking very much like ones Colt McCoy would later sport here. The GM more concerned about season ticket holders voicing they wanted a real QB (that doesn't need a step stool) used their 1st overall pick on a QB (then traded Eli for Rivers). When Rivers held out the length of training camp, guess what 4th year QB made the Pro Bowl after leading his team to a 12-4 record? Drew Brees - who knew? When did acing the QB position by the 4th start go viral around the NFL? And why are we choosing to pretend Cincy wasn't undefeated and coming off holding Pitt's passing game to 10 points?
The 5'11" Joe Theisman thrived off the bootleg waggle passes out of pocket under Joe Gibbs in Washington after coming down from the CFL. What does Mike Pettine know that Joe Gibbs was so incapable of understanding? He also made plenty of good passes in the pocket especially since professionals like Art Monk actually caught passes that hit their hands.
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If staying in the,pocket is so damn important then why is Josh McCown a broken battered man!
Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
What should Pettine do? He didn't tell him to taunt or line up offsides? Bench him the rest of the game? Turbin didn't play at all on Thursday and I'm pretty sure we all know why..
What should Pettine do? He didn't tell him to taunt or line up offsides? Bench him the rest of the game? Turbin didn't play at all on Thursday and I'm pretty sure we all know why..
OMG- he FUMBLED. Pettine hates fumbles even more than he hates pipsqueak running quarterbacks.
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