Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Canton Dawg...I coudn't agree more, but the pocket was often disrupted WAY too early, and it broke down too much...even when the Bengals rushed 3 or 4. Heck, there was one play where the Bengals rushed THREE and the DT sacked Manziel. And it was a sack that he couldn't come close to avoiding. Our probowl lineman Alex Mack just passed off the rusher to...to...nobody. It was sad. And another thing, there aren't many QB's in the LEAGUE that can move the ball consistently without a running game, and probably zero second-year QB's. We ran the ball ONE TIME in the second half. How is that possible?
Yes, Manziel needs to develop more in the pocket. Most people would totally agree on that. But when receivers aren't making plays, there is absolutely NO running game, and nobody is open when you're in the pocket...what is the kid supposed to do? Did anyone else notice that our WR's weren't ever open? How many passes were batted down by the Bengals because Johnny had to squeeze it in to an impossible window?
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I keep saying it over and over again but a short QB will not see short receivers by staying in the pocket.
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
He did. His shitty receievers dropped that ball. Fran Tarkenton. Biran Sipe.
:neutral_face: -
Canton Dawg...I coudn't agree more, but the pocket was often disrupted WAY too early, and it broke down too much...even when the Bengals rushed 3 or 4. Heck, there was one play where the Bengals rushed THREE and the DT sacked Manziel. And it was a sack that he couldn't come close to avoiding. Our probowl lineman Alex Mack just passed off the rusher to...to...nobody. It was sad. And another thing, there aren't many QB's in the LEAGUE that can move the ball consistently without a running game, and probably zero second-year QB's. We ran the ball ONE TIME in the second half. How is that possible?
Yes, Manziel needs to develop more in the pocket. Most people would totally agree on that. But when receivers aren't making plays, there is absolutely NO running game, and nobody is open when you're in the pocket...what is the kid supposed to do? Did anyone else notice that our WR's weren't ever open? How many passes were batted down by the Bengals because Johnny had to squeeze it in to an impossible window?
Your absolutely correct, we have not one standout skill position player (except Barnidge). But that's something we all knew heading into this season, (thanks Ray). Unfortunately for Johnny, the Bengals implemented the defensive strategy of keeping him in the pocket in the second half of the game. With very good results. Guess what, all of the upcoming defensive coordinators are going to do? Until we get some offensive weapons, and the defense learns how to make a stop, this shit is going to continue.Canton Dawg...I coudn't agree more, but the pocket was often disrupted WAY too early, and it broke down too much...even when the Bengals rushed 3 or 4. Heck, there was one play where the Bengals rushed THREE and the DT sacked Manziel. And it was a sack that he couldn't come close to avoiding. Our probowl lineman Alex Mack just passed off the rusher to...to...nobody. It was sad. And another thing, there aren't many QB's in the LEAGUE that can move the ball consistently without a running game, and probably zero second-year QB's. We ran the ball ONE TIME in the second half. How is that possible?
Yes, Manziel needs to develop more in the pocket. Most people would totally agree on that. But when receivers aren't making plays, there is absolutely NO running game, and nobody is open when you're in the pocket...what is the kid supposed to do? Did anyone else notice that our WR's weren't ever open? How many passes were batted down by the Bengals because Johnny had to squeeze it in to an impossible window?
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Let me point something out to everyone about our "defensive minded coach", and after you read this, you will probably be as mad as I am because it's simple football, yet it's something that happens far too often to us. Here we go:
On an early drive in the first quarter, the Bengals found themselves on a 3rd and 11, deep inside their own territory. I believe the score was still 0-0 (so you know it was early). Our DC decides to blitz TWO defensive backs, Williams and Campbell, in an effort to stymie the Bengals' drive. As a result, our DT/OLB Armonty Bryant was left to cover Marvin Jones. That was not a typo. We sent not one, but TWO DB's after the quarterback, leaving a 255 pound defender scrambling to cover the elusive Marvin Jones. The result? Jones runs a quick slant, Dalton delivers an easy strike, and the play goes for approximately 30 yards.
Guys, that's like JV football crap right there. It's such an easy pitch and catch that I can't believe to imagine how our coach did not see it ahead of time. If you don't believe me, go and look for yourself. Armonty Bryant is not supposed to be able to stop that kind of route, and why would you do that on 3rd down and long anyways? That quick slant takes hardly any time to execute, so no blitz in the world could get there quickly enough.
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I saw that play, and I'm thinking WTF? May as well had Danny Shelton covering his ass.
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Let me point something out to everyone about our "defensive minded coach", and after you read this, you will probably be as mad as I am because it's simple football, yet it's something that happens far too often to us. Here we go:
On an early drive in the first quarter, the Bengals found themselves on a 3rd and 11, deep inside their own territory. I believe the score was still 0-0 (so you know it was early). Our DC decides to blitz TWO defensive backs, Williams and Campbell, in an effort to stymie the Bengals' drive. As a result, our DT/OLB Armonty Bryant was left to cover Marvin Jones. That was not a typo. We sent not one, but TWO DB's after the quarterback, leaving a 255 pound defender scrambling to cover the elusive Marvin Jones. The result? Jones runs a quick slant, Dalton delivers an easy strike, and the play goes for approximately 30 yards.
Guys, that's like JV football crap right there. It's such an easy pitch and catch that I can't believe to imagine how our coach did not see it ahead of time. If you don't believe me, go and look for yourself. Armonty Bryant is not supposed to be able to stop that kind of route, and why would you do that on 3rd down and long anyways? That quick slant takes hardly any time to execute, so no blitz in the world could get there quickly enough.
I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
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I mean, it was a 14-10 game at halftime, and it never felt that close. Even in the third quarter when it was 17-10, did anyone really feel like it was a one score game? Our defense couldn't get off the field AGAIN on 3rd down, and not only that, it looked far too easy. At one point Dalton hit like 11 in a row or something, and the coverage was terrible. The pass rush was terrible. I hold my breath whenever we blitz because we NEVER GET HOME and somebody is always running willy-nilly free down the field.
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
What should Pettine do? He didn't tell him to taunt or line up offsides? Bench him the rest of the game? Turbin didn't play at all on Thursday and I'm pretty sure we all know why..
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
He did. His shitty receievers dropped that ball. Fran Tarkenton. Biran Sipe.
He did. His shitty receievers dropped that ball. Fran Tarkenton. Biran Sipe.
Tarkenton & Sipe could throw from the pocket.
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Are you saying Manziel is as good as Wilson???......seriously???......or that they even have the same game?
I dont know for sure, but Id bet the Pettine would leave skid marks rushing to make that trade, if offered the chance ....
I must have missed all those games where Manziel was IA for the Browns......
None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
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Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
Bottom line, if JM wants become a quality NFL QB he's going to have to learn how to throw out of the pocket.
This is right on point.
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None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
Not so fast. Read what you're actually responding to.
The team that drafted Manziel should have had this thought out long before midway through season #2 of the QB they prioritized high enough to be the 2nd QB drafted in round 1. It should have been all set before he was announced as our draft pick. That's not any fan's fault in here.
If this defense is going to continue to forfeit any chances of winning by perpetuating a 32nd ranked defense, schematically speaking - you might want to get that to the extent it doesn't matter which QB starts.
If we're gonna lose with a 36 year old QB having trouble surviving 2 different starts (NY & Arizona) already - there's nothing wrong with fans wanting to see more than 4 starts in 2 years from a first round QB before this franchise flushes another first round pick down the toilet that it could ill-afford to do. How about being pissed at the alleged Democracy that prioritized Manziel ahead of 2 other QBs while there isn't a sum of 2 testicles willing to coach up this investment through the types of growing pains Jax went through with their 3rd overall pick (Bortles), who's 2 years older than Manziel. Oakland had some growing pains with Carr as well or we wouldn't have seen Jax drafting 3rd again in 2015 with Oakland drafting 4th. Ever hear the saying "No Guts - No Glory?"
When Marvin Lewis is saying we gotta figure out a way to keep Manziel in the pocket in the second half - should we feel happy Pettine was also saying that? Which defensive minded coach was being the knucklehead? My guess is it was the Head Coach that felt compelled to re-wire his QB at halftime and it worked just as perfectly as you wanted it to. Dallas fans hated Troy Aikman when he was 4 starts old too - to the extent they thought Jimmy Johnson was out of his mind for not agreeing with them that Steve Walsh was obviously their future. The good news for all those posing for Jeff Foxworthy jokes in Dallas is that Head Coach had the grapefruits to endure the growing pains. He understood "no guts - no glory." Marty Shottenheimer didn't want to throw his 5'11" QB out in San Diego after Brees' 3rd NFL season ended with SD sporting the worst record in the NFL via QB stats looking very much like ones Colt McCoy would later sport here. The GM more concerned about season ticket holders voicing they wanted a real QB (that doesn't need a step stool) used their 1st overall pick on a QB (then traded Eli for Rivers). When Rivers held out the length of training camp, guess what 4th year QB made the Pro Bowl after leading his team to a 12-4 record? Drew Brees - who knew? When did acing the QB position by the 4th start go viral around the NFL? And why are we choosing to pretend Cincy wasn't undefeated and coming off holding Pitt's passing game to 10 points?
The 5'11" Joe Theisman thrived off the bootleg waggle passes out of pocket under Joe Gibbs in Washington after coming down from the CFL. What does Mike Pettine know that Joe Gibbs was so incapable of understanding? He also made plenty of good passes in the pocket especially since professionals like Art Monk actually caught passes that hit their hands.
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If staying in the,pocket is so damn important then why is Josh McCown a broken battered man!
Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Actually, we did get home once, and the dipshit gets called for a taunting penalty. Then compounds it by lining up offside later in the drive. Where's the accountability for that sort of crap, Mr. Pettine?
What should Pettine do? He didn't tell him to taunt or line up offsides? Bench him the rest of the game? Turbin didn't play at all on Thursday and I'm pretty sure we all know why..
What should Pettine do? He didn't tell him to taunt or line up offsides? Bench him the rest of the game? Turbin didn't play at all on Thursday and I'm pretty sure we all know why..
OMG- he FUMBLED. Pettine hates fumbles even more than he hates pipsqueak running quarterbacks.
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None of us have absolutely any idea if he CAN be as good. What the Browns are doing is not playing to his strengths, I didn't want us to draft Johnny but they did so what they're doing trying to make a short QB stay in the pocket and throw yo short receivers is beyond what I can comprehend.
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
I'm curious as to what strengths you'd like the Browns to play to and how yourself would draw up a gameplan, schematically speaking, for Johnny?
I'm more curious why a team moved up to draft someone they have no idea how to use?
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I'm more curious why a team moved up to draft someone they have no idea how to use?
Thus implying you know how to use Johnny's abilities ?
It's quite simple, there is NO NFL or
Collegiate offense that exists solely on the ability to gain yardage after the play has broken down or having to rather constantly improvise.
Structure, rythmn, communication and harmony in execution are the only things that will work.
If Manziel is unable to make even the most routine reads and throws from the pocket; if he is unable to keep the offense flowing, on time and I sync then he's really no QB at all.
His growth as a QB will only continue to trend downward should he not be able to find comfort and vision behind a solid group of pass protectors.
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Opal, it's a matter of seeing plays... in or out of the pocket. A couple of the plays made after bailing were missed from in the pocket...
1. the pass to MJ; and
2. the TD to Duke.
You simply don't get hero points at this level for solving the crisis you create.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it gets done.
Bullshit. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut. QB's do not make simple execution look difficult and find success in this league. Doesn't happen.
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The passpro and runblock issues are with everyone other than the OL - the TE, FB, and RB are all failing laughably at nearly every block they attempt to make.
Read more on PFF if you're interested, but that's the reality.
Our OL is the second-best in the league. The FB is not NFL-caliber, and makes PFF's worst11 nearly every week. Dray and Housler.. can we cut them already?
Also: JFF and Drew Brees are exactly the same size- 6'0, 209. They can, in fact, "see over the line."
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
I'm more curious why a team moved up to draft someone they have no idea how to use?
A lot of us share this exact frustration for a franchise that can't afford to flush first round draft picks down the toilet.
This is what happens to urgency when you swap out front offices and coaching staffs every 2 years. They're thinking - "we have plenty of time to coach up our guys into what we want." While experience and snake bite scars of watching this sequel from the fan base has us watching things like:
Gabriel going from reliable hands in 2014 to post traumatic syndrome-induced dropsies (after St Louis) - we forget all about his reliability when averaging 17.3 yards a catch. Instead, we're wondering where the coach em up upside went to the extent we're questioning his existence in our starting line up.
Run blocking going from much more consistency in 2014 to very little consistency in 2015 despite the continuity of Assistant Line Coach George DeLeone (McNabb's former OC at SU) remaining on staff.
On defense, we're seeing inconsistent to piss poor leverage from defensive linemen out of stance. Speaking of leverage, our outside leverage is the worst in the league which is why contain is seldom seen. How often in 2 years do you see our defender that makes first contact with the ball carrier take him down on the spot? Bad habits like poor pad height some 4 years into a college prospect's film study might not be easy to correct so there is a buyer beware in the draft sense here. I see Shelton varying his pad height so coaching can intervene with bad habits in some situations. The times he's looking good vrs double teams is when he's not surrendering his base/legs right out of stance by standing straight up first.
Last year, we all watched play like a Brown next man up get us to a 7-4 start. This year, we're 2-7 with it looking like that philosophy is losing passengers (players) fast. When guys aren't buying into a scheme (as looks to be happening with the same defensive scheme in Buffalo) - the coaching staff loses the players. The biggest thing on the radio by former Titan Blaine Bishop this week is not 1 player spoke up for Whisenhunt in any small way following the walking papers.
A few of our veteran players were very vocal when Josh Lenz and his work ethic got cut as we kept a very disinterested Dwayne Bowe and his guaranteed 9 million $ contract. Sound like a Raymond Clayborne contract when a long time hard working vet like Clay Matthews wasn't worthy of a new contract? That kind of thing will crush a locker room fast and our fanbase (as much as new hotshots dismiss us) - have seen the outcomes of it all already.
So where do we turn against an undefeated team we would have been tied with at halftime if Starks had 2 brain cells on speaking terms? A 22 year old QB making his 4th start on a shortened work week against an undefeated team that held Ben Rapen's passing game to 10 points and countless turnovers. As I said for all those that DVR'd the game, Marvin Lewis was bitching at halftime we gotta keep this QB in the pocket. Even scarier, our HC that watched the first half was saying the same exact thing. Which coach knew our QB better? And even more disturbing - why? If people watched Manziel on that 92 yard drive and they're in here telling everyone Manziel doesn't have any strengths at all - choose wisely. Most young QBs need experience such as Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, John Elway, Steve Young, Steve McNair, Aaron Rodgers (how many years before start #1?), and even Tom Brady wore blue jeans to his first 15-16 NFL games. Our 22 year old only started 2 years in college so there was already an experience issue at hand before our brain trust made their bed they suddenly don't want to sleep in. When it gets to texting and an OC needing out - what are we as a fan base supposed to be pumped about? Oh yeah, a 36 year old QB getting his ribs cracked in the pocket. Wonderful!
If people are still at Manziel is our biggest enemy - they aren't ever going to get the magnitude of this epic screw up of drafting a QB that there was such an unexpressed disinterest in until our staff is trying to justify making a 2-3 year intern out of the guy. The time to figure if his limitations are doable or not isn't after you draft him especially when it was felt there were much healthier QB alternatives we wouldn't had to trade up for. Lost in all this is we have a 22 year old QB that has improved considerably from his first 2 starts to starts #3 and #4. Even in the second, when had a lot of 3rd and long situations - our QB's passes were hitting targets in the hands rather than him getting intercepted 3 times like Cincy's D did to Ben Rapen. Pitt only scored 10 points too but their defense only gave up 16 so there was a much better margin of error keeping QB's hopes alive.
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Mack is by far the worst starting OL on the Browns this year, and it's not close. The other 4 are top10 in the league at their position.
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