Pettine, Not Farmer, To Blame?
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I get it.....Im just being difficult,,,,,,but what I truly think most people dont get....is the one common theme that ALL Super Bowl coaches had is....
They were almost ALL average coaches until they had great teams full of great players.....just a fact......
And, defensive vs offensive doesnt really matter to me.....both have proven to be SB winners.....tho Id prefer a strong defensive identity better for our division....
History has shown a couple of times, that if you have a talented team head coaches can be plug-n-play.I get it.....Im just being difficult,,,,,,but what I truly think most people dont get....is the one common theme that ALL Super Bowl coaches had is....
They were almost ALL average coaches until they had great teams full of great players.....just a fact......
And, defensive vs offensive doesnt really matter to me.....both have proven to be SB winners.....tho Id prefer a strong defensive identity better for our division....
How many time have you thought of George Siefert or Barry Switzer as great HC's?
I mean after all, they are Super Bowl winning head coaches.
However, once you think about the shadow that each crawled out from behind, and the loaded teams they coached...were they really that great?
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nah....
I think they should fire Pettine, Oneil, and Farmer immediately, or just after the
squealer game...
and move Flip to interim HC, hire Bernie Kosar as asst OC/play caller, find a
real DC with a real defense tha actually works, and isn't as complicated as
a works of Shakespeare...
and let the other interim GM that was there while Farmer had to take a hike... back in place.
Then hire a real GM next spring.
Piece of cake
nah....
I think they should fire Pettine, Oneil, and Farmer immediately, or just after the
squealer game...
and move Flip to interim HC, hire Bernie Kosar as asst OC/play caller, find a
real DC with a real defense tha actually works, and isn't as complicated as
a works of Shakespeare...
and let the other interim GM that was there while Farmer had to take a hike... back in place.
Then hire a real GM next spring.
Piece of cake
Hire Flip as the interim head coach? The guy who managed to score 10 points with future hall of fame Johnny Football
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Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...
Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
I would replace Farmer now, with Bernie Kosar yesterday.
And Pettine - if he won't replace Oneil with a guy with an
INTELLIGENT defense perspective....
Haslam has to get it right one of these days.
We might be long dead before that happens, Cal.
I think Flip stays.
Cal- I'm beginning to see a lot of a young Tom Coughlin in Pettine. Watch him get fired, and learn from his mistakes. (And Mike is Making plenty of them)
If we fail to get the same amount of players to the Pro Bowl that we got two years ago, even if those players are still on our team, wouldn't that be indicative of poor coaching?
Bingo. How can a defensive minded coach let his defense go from almost respectable, to dead skunk stinko in one year? Can't blame the crap run defense on Haden and Gipson being hurt. If he's not playing guys because their not "his" guys, or they have a bad attitude- I think it was said earlier- that's High School level BS.
Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
Cal- I'm beginning to see a lot of a young Tom Coughlin in Pettine. Watch him get fired, and learn from his mistakes. (And Mike is Making plenty of them)
Bingo. How can a defensive minded coach let his defense go from almost respectable, to dead skunk stinko in one year? Can't blame the crap run defense on Haden and Gipson being hurt. If he's not playing guys because their not "his" guys, or they have a bad attitude- I think it was said earlier- that's High School level BS.
Tom Coughlin? Did he coach in the NFL before Jacksonville? Because he had them in the afc championship game in his second year coaching there.
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Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.
Cal- I'm beginning to see a lot of a young Tom Coughlin in Pettine. Watch him get fired, and learn from his mistakes. (And Mike is Making plenty of them)
Bingo. How can a defensive minded coach let his defense go from almost respectable, to dead skunk stinko in one year? Can't blame the crap run defense on Haden and Gipson being hurt. If he's not playing guys because their not "his" guys, or they have a bad attitude- I think it was said earlier- that's High School level BS.
Tom Coughlin? Did he coach in the NFL before Jacksonville? Because he had them in the afc championship game in his second year coaching there.
Tom Coughlin? Did he coach in the NFL before Jacksonville? Because he had them in the afc championship game in his second year coaching there.
I was talking about style.
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Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...
Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...
Who knows. The team again is in turmoil....What a disgrace and embarrasement...
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Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.
I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.
As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart. -
Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.
I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.
As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.
Chris this is not the right place to plead your case.Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.
I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.
As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.
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Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.
I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.
As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.
I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.
As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.
Chris Tabor, ladies and gentlemen.
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Farmer is the only one that should be fired. Petine is doin the best with what he's got.
A coach gotta have talent to succeed. Great talent trumps great coaching.
You think Belicheck could take this group and turn them into a winner?
The Cowboys under Barry Switzer won the Super Bowl because they had talent. Barry Switzer was a bum.
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Unless the browns can actually upgrade the coach or gm with a viable and proven upgrade they should stay the course through next year with these guys.
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I know HC's are important, but I think most of the nuts and bolts stuff is really on the position coaches(teaching individual technique, etc) and the schemes and game plans fall on the coordinators.....
HC has to pick them....assemble a cast, so to speak.....and with a new guy, that may take a while....you can only hire those who are available and Pettine was behind the gun from day one....
THAT is the one concession I see with the proven HC....he has more credibility to assemble a top notch staff....which would make a difference.....cause almost our entire staff is new at their job....both coordinators AND the GM.....alon with pettine
The only attribute I really value in a HC is how they maximize the talent of their players as a whole. That's really it. For the most part, in my eyes, playcalling duties need to lie with each coordinator - with the HC dictating general flow of game. Player progression needs to lie with position coaches - with the HC dictating the general overall picture of what he wants each player to be.
The HC manages the team. Coordinators manage their respective rosters. Position coaches manage individual players.
GM stocks the roster. HC figures out how to use the players he's given to win then assembles a staff to suit. Coordinators develop the offense/defense. Position coaches refine the talent.
That's how it works in a successful system. What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision, a defensive coordinator who is awful at his job, and an offensive coordinator who is turning garbage into legitimate production...for one half at a time.
That's how it works in a successful system. What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...
Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...
Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.
Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
That's how it works in a successful system. What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...
Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...
Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.
Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?
Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...
Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.
Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?
Having the vision may be in concert, but is the method of fulfilling that vision in concert? That is the real question. And something on both sides of the ball is causing that vision to fail miserably at the moment. We don't run worth a crap and we don't stop the run worth a crap. Something is spoiling the recipe for successful vision fulfillment. And I'm not smart enough to decipher if it's on or the other or both who are responsible for that failure. Too many "group" decisions to obscure the picture and no one is owning up.
One thing I am very certain of in this league though, if you do not have a legitimate threat in the passing game, then every decent defense will stonewall your run game. And that is an area that I do not think either has come to terms with in fulfilling the offensive vision. The same argument can be made in term of not having a legitimate pass rush and edge setting. We either do not have the players or we don't have the scheme to make it work. Whatever it is it is causing the fulfillment of the vision to fail.
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That's how it works in a successful system. What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...
Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...
Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.
Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?
Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...
Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.
Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?
I don't think the vision has changed, but Pettine isn't seemingly getting it done. The moves Farmer made coincided with that vision, mostly. Two runningbacks in the draft. Offensive lineman in the first round. Defensive lineman in the first round. Cornerback in the first round. Top five FA CB. Veteran LB, veteran SS.
Yet, here we are with a defensive roster that is, on paper, a talented bunch...and our defense is shit. Here we are with an offensive line that is ranked second in the league, and we can't run the ball.
To me, that sounds like a failure in coaching - not in personnel. A lot of people like to say "oh we could have had so-and-so" without considering the fact that they had no idea who "so-and-so" was come draft time and they probably agreed with most of Farmer's draft when it happened. Hindsight is 20/20.
I feel a lot of people chastising Farmer really would hate it if I went back and looked at old pre-draft or draft day threads.
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I know HC's are important, but I think most of the nuts and bolts stuff is really on the position coaches(teaching individual technique, etc) and the schemes and game plans fall on the coordinators.....
HC has to pick them....assemble a cast, so to speak.....and with a new guy, that may take a while....you can only hire those who are available and Pettine was behind the gun from day one....
THAT is the one concession I see with the proven HC....he has more credibility to assemble a top notch staff....which would make a difference.....cause almost our entire staff is new at their job....both coordinators AND the GM.....alon with pettine
The only attribute I really value in a HC is how they maximize the talent of their players as a whole. That's really it. For the most part, in my eyes, playcalling duties need to lie with each coordinator - with the HC dictating general flow of game. Player progression needs to lie with position coaches - with the HC dictating the general overall picture of what he wants each player to be.
The HC manages the team. Coordinators manage their respective rosters. Position coaches manage individual players.
GM stocks the roster. HC figures out how to use the players he's given to win then assembles a staff to suit. Coordinators develop the offense/defense. Position coaches refine the talent.
That's how it works in a successful system. What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision, a defensive coordinator who is awful at his job, and an offensive coordinator who is turning garbage into legitimate production...for one half at a time.
OK... but that's different from:
What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...
I also don't think the vision has changed.
I've no doubt Pet desired a primo CB. I've no idea whose idea it was that Gilbert was that primo CB. I do not know the CB positions as well as I do others, but beyond the basic, man/zone and press/off decision points, I have a hard time seeing "scheme fit" being as big of an issue there as it is for other positions.
D-line... we have one example of a player with a speed/power combo that can be effective in any situation... on any down. That this is compounded by player misuse as tia, Cleve, 23 and you sometimes claim citing gap techs, etc., is not really in doubt, but I think it is the lesser factor.
At the core of our Defensive personnel issues IMO are still our LBs. Magnified in a 3-4 look, it is still significant in a 4-3. Again looking at speed/power combo talent, who pops up?
There is talent in the front 7, but it is not versatile. When it is not versatile, you have to guess which combination to use in which situation and the near universally hated shuttling ensues. If an opposing NFL OC can't plan for that, they are not even worthy of being a collegiate OC.
I don't think the "agreement" on the vision has changed. I do think the execution by both parties has fallen short. Whether Pet/Farm is a marriage that can survive depends on the willingness of each to accept their personal portion of the blame. So far who seems to be doing that?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
OK... but that's different from:
What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...
I also don't think the vision has changed.
I've no doubt Pet desired a primo CB. I've no idea whose idea it was that Gilbert was that primo CB. I do not know the CB positions as well as I do others, but beyond the basic, man/zone and press/off decision points, I have a hard time seeing "scheme fit" being as big of an issue there as it is for other positions.
D-line... we have one example of a player with a speed/power combo that can be effective in any situation... on any down. That this is compounded by player misuse as tia, Cleve, 23 and you sometimes claim citing gap techs, etc., is not really in doubt, but I think it is the lesser factor.
At the core of our Defensive personnel issues IMO are still our LBs. Magnified in a 3-4 look, it is still significant in a 4-3. Again looking at speed/power combo talent, who pops up?
There is talent in the front 7, but it is not versatile. When it is not versatile, you have to guess which combination to use in which situation and the near universally hated shuttling ensues. If an opposing NFL OC can't plan for that, they are not even worthy of being a collegiate OC.
I don't think the "agreement" on the vision has changed. I do think the execution by both parties has fallen short. Whether Pet/Farm is a marriage that can survive depends on the willingness of each to accept their personal portion of the blame. So far who seems to be doing that?
OK... but that's different from:
I also don't think the vision has changed.
I've no doubt Pet desired a primo CB. I've no idea whose idea it was that Gilbert was that primo CB. I do not know the CB positions as well as I do others, but beyond the basic, man/zone and press/off decision points, I have a hard time seeing "scheme fit" being as big of an issue there as it is for other positions.
D-line... we have one example of a player with a speed/power combo that can be effective in any situation... on any down. That this is compounded by player misuse as tia, Cleve, 23 and you sometimes claim citing gap techs, etc., is not really in doubt, but I think it is the lesser factor.
At the core of our Defensive personnel issues IMO are still our LBs. Magnified in a 3-4 look, it is still significant in a 4-3. Again looking at speed/power combo talent, who pops up?
There is talent in the front 7, but it is not versatile. When it is not versatile, you have to guess which combination to use in which situation and the near universally hated shuttling ensues. If an opposing NFL OC can't plan for that, they are not even worthy of being a collegiate OC.
I don't think the "agreement" on the vision has changed. I do think the execution by both parties has fallen short. Whether Pet/Farm is a marriage that can survive depends on the willingness of each to accept their personal portion of the blame. So far who seems to be doing that?
Okay, I misspoke. Pettine doesn't seem to have disagreed with the vision - he's disagreed with the way we're going about achieving it - namely in the players he's been given. The more I look at it, the more that OBR report makes sense - Pettine is simply playing favorites.
There's no doubt in my mind that Bowe can positively contribute to this team in some fashion. Why isn't he out there? Because he's not healthy? He's seemed pretty healthy all year. You're telling me that he can't trot out in obvious passing situations in a 4-wide set and run a mid tree route to free up someone underneath or over top? There's also no doubt in my mind that Gilbert can grade out positively if he's given more than KR/PR duties. Should he be a full-time starter? Based on what we've seen thus far - no. But I have a very hard time believing that he can't beat out K'Wuan, Desir, etc. for some rotational duties right now. Yet these guys aren't ever seeing the field for what reason again? Because our offense and defense is such a perfectly oiled machine that they don't fit in there and they would be detrimental to our success thus far?
Off of the top of my head -I think we have a rather versatile front 3/4. Starks has proven throughout his career to be rather effective as a 3 or a 5 tech. Shelton is a hard 1 tech, I believe. The rest of our line can seemingly play two positions, based on size and speed and general skillsets. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, I am just going purely off of what I envision them as right now. Our LB's, on the other hand, are not versatile in the least...and that is where some of our problem is. We're forcing Kruger out of position, we're forcing Orchard out of position, we're forcing Mingo out of position. I don't think any one of them is a coverage backer. To me, that's a coaching issue and not a personnel issue - because I really like the Orchard pick.
Show me a defense that lives and dies on OLBer's being coverage backers and I'll show you a defense that I can very easily beat.
I have tremendously cooled on Pettine over the past two weeks. He's giving off the vibe of a very inflexible coach who can't adapt his gameplan to what he's given - and that's not a good thing at all.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Agree with your general questioning and understand your "cooling". I have openly questioned the evidence of Pet adapting his scheme to personnel... the approach he trumpeted upon his arrival... for weeks now.
But I do not see the player evaluations you seem to see.
- I see your use of "trot" when it comes to Bowe as appropriate to his route running as well as his field entry/ exit.
- Who besides Des Bryant play the run and pass close to equally well?
- What team is not forced to cover RBs or TEs with LBs multiple times a game?
Yes... Kruger is abysmal in coverage and the times we have chosen to put him in that role deserve ridicule. Mingo setting the edge is nearly as bad. But you cannot hide these players weaknesses... at least not all at the same time.
Orchard strikes me as our most balanced OLB. As yet he may not be at an adequate level in either role, but he has shown signs of being coachable, e.g., his 3rd&2, stay-at-home sack of a bootlegging Dalton a week ago.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Agree with your general questioning and understand your "cooling". I have openly questioned the evidence of Pet adapting his scheme to personnel... the approach he trumpeted upon his arrival... for weeks now.
But I do not see the player evaluations you seem to see.
- I see your use of "trot" when it comes to Bowe as appropriate to his route running as well as his field entry/ exit.
- Who besides Des Bryant play the run and pass close to equally well?
- What team is not forced to cover RBs or TEs with LBs multiple times a game?
Yes... Kruger is abysmal in coverage and the times we have chosen to put him in that role deserve ridicule. Mingo setting the edge is nearly as bad. But you cannot hide these players weaknesses... at least not all at the same time.
Orchard strikes me as our most balanced OLB. As yet he may not be at an adequate level in either role, but he has shown signs of being coachable, e.g., his 3rd&2, stay-at-home sack of a bootlegging Dalton a week ago.
Agree with your general questioning and understand your "cooling". I have openly questioned the evidence of Pet adapting his scheme to personnel... the approach he trumpeted upon his arrival... for weeks now.
But I do not see the player evaluations you seem to see.
- I see your use of "trot" when it comes to Bowe as appropriate to his route running as well as his field entry/ exit.
- Who besides Des Bryant play the run and pass close to equally well?
- What team is not forced to cover RBs or TEs with LBs multiple times a game?
Yes... Kruger is abysmal in coverage and the times we have chosen to put him in that role deserve ridicule. Mingo setting the edge is nearly as bad. But you cannot hide these players weaknesses... at least not all at the same time.
Orchard strikes me as our most balanced OLB. As yet he may not be at an adequate level in either role, but he has shown signs of being coachable, e.g., his 3rd&2, stay-at-home sack of a bootlegging Dalton a week ago.
There's a difference between tasking a LB to cover multiple times a game, and taking a bona fide Buck LBer and throwing him in coverage for a majority of his snaps and, for all intents and purposes, both Mingo and Kruger are Buck LBer's. The only reason they exist on a football team is to get pressure on pass plays and contain on rushes. Putting them in coverage is a liability, and it's what opposing offensive coordinators game plan for.
Mingo is too weak to play on the right and Kruger isn't rangey enough to play on the left but it seems like that's where I've seen them frequently. Orchard may be the most versatile of the bunch, but he's a rookie and we're tasking him with basically being the jack of all trades backer, so there will be growing pains.
As for Bowe, there isn't sufficient enough game tape on him for me to make an assessment on his ability, but he's a damn sight more talented on paper than Hartline. With our relatively poor production from a WR not named Benjamin, it's hard for me to believe that Bowe can't crack the lineup if even for more than two plays a game. I'd venture a bet that he's no slower than Larry Fitzgerald is this year, yet Fitz is still quick enough to have an impact. Bowe's speed, or lack thereof, is only exacerbated by the fact that he's been on the field with Gabriel, Hawkins, Benjamin etc. He didn't look any slower than Barnidge...you're saying we can't put Bowe in the slot and have him draw a LB in coverage on third downs?
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Read Jim O'Neil's biography on Clevelandbrowns.com
It tells the story:
In 2014, we were
5th in red zone defense
11th in 3rd down defense
9th in points per game
1st in QB rating
2nd in INTs
9th in yards per play
But it leaves out the run D, which was still terrible; however, overall the group was effective (9th in points per game). How can you come back with mostly the same talent, even improved in some areas IMHO and go to 26th in points allowed and 24th in QB rating? Not to mention, get EVEN WORSE at rush D.
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TC,
We can't even put Barn in the slot and draw LB coverage on 3rd...
Not that Bowe's spirit would be indestructible IF in fact he has been wronged out of spite, but I see nothing remotely close to Fitz. Fitz's move to the slot has revitalized him... not back to the near-burner, 4.5-ish speed he once had, but he has been reborn. And Fitz is still quick, which I see as a separate asset from speed.
On your left/rights... Offensive or Defensive? Kruger lived on our Defense's left last year as a pass -rusher/edge setter while Mingo lived on our bench. *** Hyperbole Alert***
Had to look up "Buck LB", but yes, Kruger is the very definition of one. Mingo? Fits the definition, but not the role. Pet himself has said he is our best cover OLB. That might be a very sad statement, but it is what it is...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
TC,
We can't even put Barn in the slot and draw LB coverage on 3rd...
Not that Bowe's spirit would be indestructible IF in fact he has been wronged out of spite, but I see nothing remotely close to Fitz. Fitz's move to the slot has revitalized him... not back to the near-burner, 4.5-ish speed he once had, but he has been reborn. And Fitz is still quick, which I see as a separate asset from speed.
On your left/rights... Offensive or Defensive? Kruger lived on our Defense's left last year as a pass -rusher/edge setter while Mingo lived on our bench. *** Hyperbole Alert***
Had to look up "Buck LB", but yes, Kruger is the very definition of one. Mingo? Fits the definition, but not the role. Pet himself has said he is our best cover OLB. That might be a very sad statement, but it is what it is...
TC,
We can't even put Barn in the slot and draw LB coverage on 3rd...
Not that Bowe's spirit would be indestructible IF in fact he has been wronged out of spite, but I see nothing remotely close to Fitz. Fitz's move to the slot has revitalized him... not back to the near-burner, 4.5-ish speed he once had, but he has been reborn. And Fitz is still quick, which I see as a separate asset from speed.
On your left/rights... Offensive or Defensive? Kruger lived on our Defense's left last year as a pass -rusher/edge setter while Mingo lived on our bench. *** Hyperbole Alert***
Had to look up "Buck LB", but yes, Kruger is the very definition of one. Mingo? Fits the definition, but not the role. Pet himself has said he is our best cover OLB. That might be a very sad statement, but it is what it is...
Offensive, sorry. Kruger can't match up with elite left tackles and beat them consistently, but he is physical enough to match up with generally more stout RT's and prove to be effective.
Now we've got him shifting across the field as a strongside coverage backer more often than not and I just don't see the point in it. He's proven time and again he is a pass rusher first and foremost. Mingo was the right pick physically, he's a tweener with great speed and solid potential as a rusher, but he's apparently our best coverage backer?
That kind of epitomizes my point from before - it's like Farmer is stocking the team with players to fill roles, and then Pettine is using them outside of their role. Granted Mingo was technically a holdover from a previous regime, but his skillset lends himself to being a pass rusher and he's not being used as one.
Wasn't Malcolm Johnson supposed to be an effective receiving threat at FB? He's rangy, quick and has solid hands...yet he's a complete non-factor in the passing (and running) game. Stuff like that is what bothers me. It seems like, on paper, we have the talent to run the system we originally claimed we would run. But now we're averaging something like 65% of our plays as passing plays? Josh McCown is getting 50 pass attempts a game? How is that anything like what they claimed they would run?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride
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