Nate Orchard is a bust.
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Mud, the basis of your point seems to be "I know we drafted and signed a load of 4-3 DEs, but we decided to run a 3-4, so converted them all to OLBs and made them drop in to coverage, if they don't, who will?" There doesn't seem to be a problem there? We've drafted guys based on a single talent (pass rush) primarily, and then we expect them to do something else.
As for 4-3 OLBs, Kirksey was an OLB at college and is now ILB, I'm pretty sure he could do that job. Mingo would probably be quite effective. Robertson played there in his first year with the Browns. Dansby would be the Mike, sure, and we could use an extra backer or two, but it wouldn't be disastrous.
Shelton is the only concern I would have converting to a 4-3.
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Mud, the basis of your point seems to be "I know we drafted and signed a load of 4-3 DEs, but we decided to run a 3-4, so converted them all to OLBs and made them drop in to coverage, if they don't, who will?" There doesn't seem to be a problem there? We've drafted guys based on a single talent (pass rush) primarily, and then we expect them to do something else.
As for 4-3 OLBs, Kirksey was an OLB at college and is now ILB, I'm pretty sure he could do that job. Mingo would probably be quite effective. Robertson played there in his first year with the Browns. Dansby would be the Mike, sure, and we could use an extra backer or two, but it wouldn't be disastrous.
Shelton is the only concern I would have converting to a 4-3.
Mud, the basis of your point seems to be "I know we drafted and signed a load of 4-3 DEs, but we decided to run a 3-4, so converted them all to OLBs and made them drop in to coverage, if they don't, who will?" There doesn't seem to be a problem there? We've drafted guys based on a single talent (pass rush) primarily, and then we expect them to do something else.
As for 4-3 OLBs, Kirksey was an OLB at college and is now ILB, I'm pretty sure he could do that job. Mingo would probably be quite effective. Robertson played there in his first year with the Browns. Dansby would be the Mike, sure, and we could use an extra backer or two, but it wouldn't be disastrous.
Shelton is the only concern I would have converting to a 4-3.
Well...Im simply trying to defend Pettine for using the guys he has, because he is under attack, but has no OLBs to use....
We were "supposed" to be built as a 3-4 team going back 3 years now.....we were 3-4 with Horton....and Pettines system is 3-4 too.....so, we can say Pettine is wrong for wanting to use his system or the FO is wrong for acquiring all the wrong talent.....either would be a valid argument....(I think we brought Pettine here BECAUSE of his success with this system, right?)
So today with this current roster.....he has to use the OLBs he has....and everyone is screaming he is miss using them.....so whats he to do???....how is Pettine screwing up the D?....should we switch to a 4-3 in the middle of a season?.....just trash the system because our guys aren't good enough to execute it?......
Still waiting to hear....Out of these 4 OLBs......right now, who covers and who rushes???.....
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I hear what you're saying, and I'm not blaming any specific individual - there's plenty of blame to go around. It just seems like we're drafting the wrong guys for the system, and/or using the guys we draft in a way that curbs their main skill and exposes a weakness.
Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional.
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I hear what you're saying, and I'm not blaming any specific individual - there's plenty of blame to go around. It just seems like we're drafting the wrong guys for the system, and/or using the guys we draft in a way that curbs their main skill and exposes a weakness.
Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional.
Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional.
There it is.........thank you!....
And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense....
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Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional.
There it is.........thank you!....
And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense....
There it is.........thank you!....
And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense....
Dropping Kruger, not rushing Orchard, not playing to the strengths of our guys and not putting them in a position to succeed, *that* is on the coach, not the GM. Last year we played Jabaal Sheard at left OLB prety much every snap, IIRC, and now in New England they have him lining up all over the shop, at OLB, DE, I think even blitzing ILB at one point, but all playing to his strengths.
What does each guy do well? Maybe Orchard's a hand fighter, Kruger's a power guy, Mingo's a speed guy, so create mismatches against opposing linemen based on that. Have Mingo rush opposing equivalent of Mitchell Schwartz and his world renowned weakness to a speed rush, for example.
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There it is.........thank you!....
And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense....
Dropping Kruger, not rushing Orchard, not playing to the strengths of our guys and not putting them in a position to succeed, *that* is on the coach, not the GM. Last year we played Jabaal Sheard at left OLB prety much every snap, IIRC, and now in New England they have him lining up all over the shop, at OLB, DE, I think even blitzing ILB at one point, but all playing to his strengths.
What does each guy do well? Maybe Orchard's a hand fighter, Kruger's a power guy, Mingo's a speed guy, so create mismatches against opposing linemen based on that. Have Mingo rush opposing equivalent of Mitchell Schwartz and his world renowned weakness to a speed rush, for example.
What does each guy do well? Maybe Orchard's a hand fighter, Kruger's a power guy, Mingo's a speed guy, so create mismatches against opposing linemen based on that. Have Mingo rush opposing equivalent of Mitchell Schwartz and his world renowned weakness to a speed rush, for example.
Id say that rushing the passer is what they are supposed to do well.....although they never get any sacks.....
Kruger rushes 83% of his pass snaps...(last year he rushed 88%)(so, about the same)
Armonty rushes 85% of his pass plays....
Orchard rushes 60% of his pass plays....
Mingo rushes 40% of his pass plays....
So, Id say coach IS playing to their strengths.....as Orchard and Mingo are best at cover and Kruger and Armonty are rush only guys.....and, in a very small percentage of pass plays(1 in 10), they switch up to keep the other team honest...OR....the other team(QB) forces the issue by taking advantage of these guys limitations and adjusting at the line to force a Kruger or Armonty into coverage, when they'd rather not be....
We could go on......but in my world, these OLBs aint getting it and no coach would be getting what he needs from them....3-4 or 4-3.....if you cant tackle and you cant cover, then you are not a good olb no matter what the system is.....period....
And the % I just posted are pretty consistent with the rest of the OLB's in the league....our guys are being asked to do what ALL of the 3-4 OLB's are doing...every team....same percentages....
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My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system.
I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward.
Mike
Mack: injuries might be affecting that?
Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise
Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.
Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.
Crowell: no idea.
The above are all O players, and Pett has less to do with that than the D players, so it's quite possibly that the change in OC contributed as much as any thing else. Where Hawkins and Gabriel have gone down, from a combined 1,668 yards last year, Benjamin and Barnidge are already at almost 1,600 combined, so I'll call that at worst a push, and at best getting more out of them.
The others - Thomas, Mack & Crowell, and throw in Bitonio who has not been at the same level by all accounts - are all OL players, and Crowell whose game is a direct product of the OL. Speculation on my part, but I think this is down to a combination of a rookie OC, and *no* OL coach, after boozy-mcfeely got suspended at the start of the season.
Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.
Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.
Amen, brother, Mud...
Mack: injuries might be affecting that?
Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise
Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.
Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.
Crowell: no idea.
Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.
Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.
Nice analysis... I'd only add that:
- Hawk's career year was fueled in part by being fed last year by a QB that suited his game better than either of our 2 starters to date, Hoyer. Hoyer had the best combination of read and release while Hawks routes did and still do depend upon timing. It's possible that AD may now step to the head of that column. Also possible that AD has been throwing to Hawk a lot on the side as Hawk has been working his way back.
- Both Hawk and Gabe have been pushed a little deeper in the rotation by Benji's re-emergence and Hart's addition.
Bottom line, We need versatile OLB's that play multiple roles and we dont have them......and that is not Pettines fault.....(which is my point)....
At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves...
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Amen, brother, Mud...
Mack: injuries might be affecting that?
Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise
Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.
Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.
Crowell: no idea.
Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.
Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.
Nice analysis... I'd only add that:
- Hawk's career year was fueled in part by being fed last year by a QB that suited his game better than either of our 2 starters to date, Hoyer. Hoyer had the best combination of read and release while Hawks routes did and still do depend upon timing. It's possible that AD may now step to the head of that column. Also possible that AD has been throwing to Hawk a lot on the side as Hawk has been working his way back.
- Both Hawk and Gabe have been pushed a little deeper in the rotation by Benji's re-emergence and Hart's addition.
Bottom line, We need versatile OLB's that play multiple roles and we dont have them......and that is not Pettines fault.....(which is my point)....
At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves...
At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves...
armonty and desmond have a decent tool set. The others, not so much. Big reason I want Bosa, whether we stay in a 3-4 or move to 4-3. I see more pass rushing variety out of Bosa than any of our guys. I'd prefer we move to a 4-3 so that we could retain armonty and Orchard, both of whom I think make better 4-3 DE's although Orchard has proven we could use him on days we feel the need to drop one of the guys on the line into coverage more
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Did slight the Bryant boys a tad perhaps, especially Armonty.
And so were clear, I'm not saying Bosa is not a top DL prospect, just not sold on a #1 overall status. So when I ask for a 2015 game, or two or three, to watch that makes the #1 case, I am being serious.
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At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves...
armonty and desmond have a decent tool set. The others, not so much. Big reason I want Bosa, whether we stay in a 3-4 or move to 4-3. I see more pass rushing variety out of Bosa than any of our guys. I'd prefer we move to a 4-3 so that we could retain armonty and Orchard, both of whom I think make better 4-3 DE's although Orchard has proven we could use him on days we feel the need to drop one of the guys on the line into coverage more
armonty and desmond have a decent tool set. The others, not so much. Big reason I want Bosa, whether we stay in a 3-4 or move to 4-3. I see more pass rushing variety out of Bosa than any of our guys. I'd prefer we move to a 4-3 so that we could retain armonty and Orchard, both of whom I think make better 4-3 DE's although Orchard has proven we could use him on days we feel the need to drop one of the guys on the line into coverage more
Again, I feel you guys should give a long look at an under philosophy with the personnel we have combined with what Pettine likes to do.
Did slight the Bryant boys a tad perhaps, especially Armonty.
And so were clear, I'm not saying Bosa is not a top DL prospect, just not sold on a #1 overall status. So when I ask for a 2015 game, or two or three, to watch that makes the #1 case, I am being serious.
I'll work on that this weekend.
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