Haslem and Farmer should be ashamed....
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I gotta wonder about Jimmy a bit tho. The media only got a "no comment" outa him after the game and read all sorts of things in it. Maybe he is going ignore the media frenzy and stand pat. Regardless, firing people now would help nothing
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Another example of the only voice we are hearing from....
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/browns_mike_pettine_your_build.html
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still time for those on the dark side with delusioned minds (gruden is coming....urban will sign....fire pet elevate flip) to get their story straight before another humiliating defeat of what they preach and believe in does not come true.
still got that case saying gruden nor urban coming so.......
where 'dem big mouths at?
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I'm a Muddite too. As he has said previously you can't fire the owner, but it's Haslam who has assembled a coaching staff of rookies who are supposed to be teaching, but in reality are still learning. Pettine is one of those and has a real tough job- even experienced HCs would suffer at Cleveland right now. I'm sure history will repeat itself though. We need a lot more experienced coaches for starters.
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I gotta wonder about Jimmy a bit tho. The media only got a "no comment" outa him after the game and read all sorts of things in it. Maybe he is going ignore the media frenzy and stand pat. Regardless, firing people now would help nothing
I gotta wonder about Jimmy a bit tho. The media only got a "no comment" outa him after the game and read all sorts of things in it.
No worse time to comment on the record that when you're frustrated/ pissed...
Just think what this place would be like if we all didn't follow this simple guideline.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I would be willing to give pettine another year with the assumption that whomever is in charge of defensive player personnel groupings and the overcomplicated read/react defense is replaced with a more traditional defensive scheme i would prefer and 4~3 with an emphasis on Interior Blitzer's. But with pettine at the head i just dont think that will happen as he is firmly a rex ryan man. To be honest if you wouldn't accept rob ryan or rex ryan as your HC. I don't see pettine as much different. Personally i just want smashmouth football back in cleveland ohio. These gimmick players and coaches are getting old. Also i would love to shift away from zone running and move back into power running.
I doubt pettine will do the things i want to see...but...i have seen hope in him...the type of players he prefers fit that system both offensively and defensively and i am hoping with time he realizes that the "speedy playmaker" defense looks real pretty when it works but it doesn't win championships. It is just not consistent enough.
Farmer should be let go at the end of the season. I just think he and pettine have two completely different visions on what makes a team good and the result is this mixture of two competing ideals. If i had to pick one to keep and one to fire it would be pettine over farmer.
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I gotta wonder about Jimmy a bit tho. The media only got a "no comment" outa him after the game and read all sorts of things in it.
No worse time to comment on the record that when you're frustrated/ pissed...
Just think what this place would be like if we all didn't follow this simple guideline.
No worse time to comment on the record that when you're frustrated/ pissed...Just think what this place would be like if we all didn't follow this simple guideline.
Not really what I meant tho. I'm thinking he might be changing his ways. What can he say? We suck? Fire em all? The worst right now might be to say "we're riding it out". But a no comment and walk away may just mean we get the same HC and gm next year. I can't see him hiring a new gm and make him keep the coach when it's his job to hire the hc. About the only real cure is to ride it out and get a team assembled under 1 gm hc combo.
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I've been trying to say it myself. The shit starts at the top and flows down. And Pettine sure comes off as a stand up guy. He has had to answer for mistakes at the owner and GM level as well as his own....which he admits. And that's on top of trying to coach the talent he has to be game ready and dealing with player egos....without help or support from the top. He's got more backbone than the other 2 combined
And Pettine sure comes off as a stand up guy....... He's got more backbone than the other 2 combined
Agreed....he's not perfect, but damned if he isnt trying....and he has the biggest balls any of our coaches have had in quite some time.....
Shit, we agree again. Hell has officially frozen.
Well....it is that time of year....
Great job Mud!
I don't understand why Pettine has to answer for the clusterfuck that Farmer has assembled every Monday.
Right.....and I dont blame him for getting a bit of attitude toward some of these guys.....he is human after all....
Its hard to stay happy, when you're working your ass off and you keep getting knocked back by people who arent....
Mud, you pist. but positive. keep steamrolling straight ahead!!
Yes eye am.....frustrated at leased....
Other than lame defenses of his logo, even Snyder is more scarce now in DC.
Yes he is.....though he has the one other team with 8 Coaches since 1999....
I know Jimmy wants to seem like he's one of those guys who wont "accept" losing, but sometimes those types of guys are the ones making irrational decisions.....
Jerry, Snyder and Davis come to mind quickly....
Id like to see if some Rooney rubbed off on him.....cause I dont think he has EVER fired a coach after one or 2 years.......
Its ok to be sold on something by Mud. ........ but Mud has pulled me back from the dark side.....
I got some land in Florida......
Glad you rejoined us and can now enjoy some Mudshine....
I'm a Muddite too. As he has said previously you can't fire the owner, but it's Haslam who has assembled a coaching staff of rookies who are supposed to be teaching, but in reality are still learning. Pettine is one of those and has a real tough job- even experienced HCs would suffer at Cleveland right now. I'm sure history will repeat itself though. We need a lot more experienced coaches for starters.
There it is.....rookies make mistakes(coaches, players and owners).......
If the WHOLE team is made up of rookies.....there are gonna be MORE mistakes.....it's just common sense.....
Lets see how they develop before we start cutting em......
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I don't despise Pettine - but it's his defense that does not work, the Browns defensive
players are playing all out.
but they certainly look po'd after seeing that the defense is making them look foolish.
and with the frustration goes mistakes.
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I agree with a lot of your original post. Injuries happen to just about every team in the NFL, so it's the responsibility of the GM to have the cupboard stocked at least A LITTLE bit so the drop off isn't so cataclysmic. When is the last time we drafted an impact player in the first round? I mean, it's not THAT hard. How many people were screaming for Derek Carr? Anthony Barr? Aaron Donald? Even Bridgewater isn't doing too poorly, and the reason is he plays on a team that can RUN THE BALL and has a decent defense. What about all of the WR's Farmer whiffed on, and then in his typical arrogant self, he says that the WR position isn't that important (I'm paraphrasing, but he said something like that).
Here's the thing: Just because we fire Pettine and his staff, doesn't mean that we're going to be able to find somebody BETTER. Farmer has to go too, right? What coach worth his salt will want a job with no security, a joke of a GM, and a culture that won't allow for 3-4 years of building? I've heard some say Gruden was advocating for the job, but I didn't get that sense at all. I think he was just pointing out the massive failures of our team as a whole. Mud has kind of changed my mind a little bit in regards to thinking it was all a scheme problem. Does Pettine deserve some blame? Of course he does, but he hasn't exactly been given the keys to a high performing squad, and his talent level is extremely poor. We don't have ANY talent (for the most part), and Pettine doesn't really have a say in that.
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I want Pettine to go to Clock Management Rehab, and drop the whole "We Own that" shit. I would be willing to give him another year if both conditions are met.
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I don't despise Pettine - but it's his defense that does not work, the Browns defensive
players are playing all out.
but they certainly look po'd after seeing that the defense is making them look foolish.
and with the frustration goes mistakes.
but they certainly look po'd after seeing that the defense is making them look foolish.
Perspective is everything I guess.....Im thinking the players are making Pettine look foolish.....
Cal....you cant go on about our lack of talent, then blame coaching when we "continue" to lose.......this team hasnt been good for 20 years, so how is it that Pettine suddenly made them bad?....and if he has made them bad, WHEN did we get good?
Does Pettine deserve some blame? Of course he does, but he hasn't exactly been given the keys to a high performing squad....
Yes he does....and NO he hasnt.....agreed
I want Pettine to go to Clock Management Rehab, and drop the whole "We Own that" shit. I would be willing to give him another year if both conditions are met.
Yeah...ok....rookie errors, which we all knew would happen....but still cry when it does.....(no saying the NEXT rookie wont do the same).....
And owning it is better than not......too bad more of our players dont do the same......
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but they certainly look po'd after seeing that the defense is making them look foolish.
Perspective is everything I guess.....Im thinking the players are making Pettine look foolish.....
Cal....you cant go on about our lack of talent, then blame coaching when we "continue" to lose.......this team hasnt been good for 20 years, so how is it that Pettine suddenly made them bad?....and if he has made them bad, WHEN did we get good?
Does Pettine deserve some blame? Of course he does, but he hasn't exactly been given the keys to a high performing squad....
Yes he does....and NO he hasnt.....agreed
I want Pettine to go to Clock Management Rehab, and drop the whole "We Own that" shit. I would be willing to give him another year if both conditions are met.
Yeah...ok....rookie errors, which we all knew would happen....but still cry when it does.....(no saying the NEXT rookie wont do the same).....
And owning it is better than not......too bad more of our players dont do the same......
Cal....you cant go on about our lack of talent, then blame coaching when we "continue" to lose.......this team hasnt been good for 20 years, so how is it that Pettine suddenly made them bad?....and if he has made them bad, WHEN did we get good?
First half of 2014... remember? We were in first place and everything.
Hadn't thought about it until now, but the contrast between the elation created by that period of overachievement and the despair of our 2015 performance may make the fall seem a lot greater than it actually has been.
Add that we thought we knew why we fell off in late 2014 and felt we'd addressed the issues...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I also think we were the benefactors of an easy schedule during that time.
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Cal....you cant go on about our lack of talent, then blame coaching when we "continue" to lose.......this team hasnt been good for 20 years, so how is it that Pettine suddenly made them bad?....and if he has made them bad, WHEN did we get good?
First half of 2014... remember? We were in first place and everything.
Hadn't thought about it until now, but the contrast between the elation created by that period of overachievement and the despair of our 2015 performance may make the fall seem a lot greater than it actually has been.
Add that we thought we knew why we fell off in late 2014 and felt we'd addressed the issues...
First half of 2014... remember? We were in first place and everything.
Add that we thought we knew why we fell off in late 2014 and felt we'd addressed the issues...
And we all gave Pettine credit for over achieving and winning with a team no one else wanted....and almost doubling the win total in one year, even though he had very limited talent and a thrown together staff and virtually no difference makers or play makers or QB.....
Then...this year, even with the brutal schedule....we assumed he would work similar magic.......
And, now, it hasnt happened....and he sucks....
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The premise of this thread is fair enough: Don't blame just Pettine.....blame also Haslam and Farmer.
So be it. They certainly need to share responsibility.
When you have a national radio show like Mike and Mike saying this is the worst run organization in sports.....I think the owner should suffer some anger and embarassment over that.
Of course....however, this does not absolve Pettine. For, while it may be said that this is the worst run organization is sports.....also let it be said that is may be by far the worst coached team in sports. In the NFL certainly.
So while Farmer and Haslam get put on the hook....that doesn't mean that Pettine and his inept minions get let off. Not by any means.
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The premise of this thread is fair enough: Don't blame just Pettine.....blame also Haslam and Farmer.
So be it. They certainly need to share responsibility.
When you have a national radio show like Mike and Mike saying this is the worst run organization in sports.....I think the owner should suffer some anger and embarassment over that.
Of course....however, this does not absolve Pettine. For, while it may be said that this is the worst run organization is sports.....also let it be said that is may be by far the worst coached team in sports. In the NFL certainly.
So while Farmer and Haslam get put on the hook....that doesn't mean that Pettine and his inept minions get let off. Not by any means.
When you have a national radio show like Mike and Mike saying this is the worst run organization in sports....
Right...they called it the worst run organization in sports........not the worst Coached.....
And if Jimmy and Farmer haven't given Pettine the things a "good organization" would(they haven't).....how can he be judged so harshly?
Have they put him in the best position to win?......
Nope.....Dont think so.....
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When you have a national radio show like Mike and Mike saying this is the worst run organization in sports....
Right...they called it the worst run organization in sports........not the worst Coached.....
And if Jimmy and Farmer haven't given Pettine the things a "good organization" would(they haven't).....how can he be judged so harshly?
Have they put him in the best position to win?......
Nope.....Dont think so.....
Right...they called it the worst run organization in sports........not the worst Coached.....
And if Jimmy and Farmer haven't given Pettine the things a "good organization" would(they haven't).....how can he be judged so harshly?
Have they put him in the best position to win?......
Nope.....Dont think so.....
Tweedledum, Tweedledee. I call it the worst coached team in the NFL........regardless of what anyone else thinks.
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Thats right.....Haslem and Farmer....
They ARE the ones running this ship, right?
Haslem is the bigshot owner who was gonna make this team right.....and Farmer is the arrogant - know it all - GM who restocked this team with greatness....right?
So....Haslam has already fired 2 complete NFL staffs, and by all appearances, is about to fire his third in just 3 years....and, somehow, he'll try to sell us that its "those guys he's fired" that were the problem....even though HE has hired them all and is their leader....
And if he is the leader, why is he not saying one thing?......Ill tell you why.....he doesnt know what to say, He's lost. And as long as he has Pettine to take the heat, he's gonna let him stand out there alone and answer to this shit storm.....as if it's Pettines fault this team has not improved....
And Farmer?....where the fuck is he??????......Why does Pettine have to answer to Johnny, Bowe, Housler, Gilbert, West, etc etc etc.....????......Farmer has been absent this ENTIRE season and the one time we saw him, he was as smug and arrogant as they come. Really really a turn off for this fan. Whose fault is it that we have SO MANY overpaid non performing players? Whose fault is it that we claim to draft character, yet our roster has the head case Gilbert, party boy drunk QB, pot head WR in waiting, 4 th highest paid LB in the league, with 12 tackles, 12m WR who doesnt even try to play and a GM who gets himself suspended....
Yet, lets leave Pettine out there....all alone....to explain it away AND take ALL the heat.....(Oneill too, as if he's the reason this team sucks....which is so ridiculous I dont know what to say....we sucked before him and well suck after him).....I promise
For the 2 guys who are REALLY supposed to be LEADERS and the decision makers and the guys who are running things...Haslem and Farmer sure are absent....and definitely NOT being accountable in any way for this shit storm....
TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP FROM THE TOP DOWN......
Whether or not you think Pettine is a good coach, he is not the reason this team has been bad for 20 years...or the last 2 years......but he is the only one sitting out there....like a man....and answering questions and standing up to the heat......the other guys are hiding like the pussies that they are.
So....for all of you who think its Pettine or Jim Oneills fault that this team sucks....think again....
Everyone wants Pettine gone because he's the "leader" and not getting his minions to do their jobs....THINK AGAIN........
I say he's in the middle....FARMER and Haslem are his bosses and they aint leading shit....and they'll want you to believe they given Pettine "everything he needs to succeed"....which is a crock...
So....they'll let Pettine take the heat....twist in the wind....then they'll fire him(scapegoat)....and everyone will cheer!!....YAY!....
And then Haslem and Farmer will hire some new coach that is supposed to win with crap.....and the cycle starts again.....and they will just continue to give us more shit and less leadership......and this untalented team will continue to make coaches look bad....etc etc
Its a bad look and I got more respect than ever for Pettine, for just sitting up there alone and being the goat....while the rest of the organization hides....
Haslem is quickly becoming Daniel Snyder....didnt he learn ANYTHING from the Rooneys????
Thats right.....Haslem and Farmer....
They ARE the ones running this ship, right?
Haslem is the bigshot owner who was gonna make this team right.....and Farmer is the arrogant - know it all - GM who restocked this team with greatness....right?
So....Haslam has already fired 2 complete NFL staffs, and by all appearances, is about to fire his third in just 3 years....and, somehow, he'll try to sell us that its "those guys he's fired" that were the problem....even though HE has hired them all and is their leader....
And if he is the leader, why is he not saying one thing?......Ill tell you why.....he doesnt know what to say, He's lost. And as long as he has Pettine to take the heat, he's gonna let him stand out there alone and answer to this shit storm.....as if it's Pettines fault this team has not improved....
And Farmer?....where the fuck is he??????......Why does Pettine have to answer to Johnny, Bowe, Housler, Gilbert, West, etc etc etc.....????......Farmer has been absent this ENTIRE season and the one time we saw him, he was as smug and arrogant as they come. Really really a turn off for this fan. Whose fault is it that we have SO MANY overpaid non performing players? Whose fault is it that we claim to draft character, yet our roster has the head case Gilbert, party boy drunk QB, pot head WR in waiting, 4 th highest paid LB in the league, with 12 tackles, 12m WR who doesnt even try to play and a GM who gets himself suspended....
Yet, lets leave Pettine out there....all alone....to explain it away AND take ALL the heat.....(Oneill too, as if he's the reason this team sucks....which is so ridiculous I dont know what to say....we sucked before him and well suck after him).....I promise
For the 2 guys who are REALLY supposed to be LEADERS and the decision makers and the guys who are running things...Haslem and Farmer sure are absent....and definitely NOT being accountable in any way for this shit storm....
TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP FROM THE TOP DOWN......
Whether or not you think Pettine is a good coach, he is not the reason this team has been bad for 20 years...or the last 2 years......but he is the only one sitting out there....like a man....and answering questions and standing up to the heat......the other guys are hiding like the pussies that they are.
So....for all of you who think its Pettine or Jim Oneills fault that this team sucks....think again....
Everyone wants Pettine gone because he's the "leader" and not getting his minions to do their jobs....THINK AGAIN........
I say he's in the middle....FARMER and Haslem are his bosses and they aint leading shit....and they'll want you to believe they given Pettine "everything he needs to succeed"....which is a crock...
So....they'll let Pettine take the heat....twist in the wind....then they'll fire him(scapegoat)....and everyone will cheer!!....YAY!....
And then Haslem and Farmer will hire some new coach that is supposed to win with crap.....and the cycle starts again.....and they will just continue to give us more shit and less leadership......and this untalented team will continue to make coaches look bad....etc etc
Its a bad look and I got more respect than ever for Pettine, for just sitting up there alone and being the goat....while the rest of the organization hides....
Haslem is quickly becoming Daniel Snyder....didnt he learn ANYTHING from the Rooneys????
I agree Farmer sucks and Haslem has made a ton of mistakes. Mud, one of your biggest gifts is being able to make sense of things that don't make sense and articulating them so they make perfect sense. Always a compelling read in here. However, I couldn't tell who you were trying to convince more between yourself and your readers with the Poor Mike stuff.
First, there's only 1 owner that gave Mike Pettine a shot. Do you really think Haslem, fresh off the 4-12 train wreck from 2013, was thinking - I can't wait to make life Hell on my new Head Coach?
Second, Pettine hired his own coaching staff. He opted to keep Tabor as the Special Teams Coordinator for the sake of continuity, hired a rookie DC in 2014 and then hired a rookie OC in 2015. I'll start with continuity in saying I've never seen our return team flagged more in a 3 year period which has often meant starting drives between our 5 and 15 yard line. Baltimore was very thankful we kept him here so they could score on his unit twice. Somebody posted in the O'Neil thread how many categories our defense ranked dead last. Our running game was ranked 31st heading into the Cincy game while our most efficient QB wasn't surviving life in this pocket. The situational football practiced showed me 2 consecutive weeks where the QB we were counting on as time was expiring Monday or near half on Sunday no sense of time management or urgency like this coaching staff. And how comforting was it to read our Offensive Line Coach had a history of troubles with alcohol to the extent 1 more incident = game over. For a guy that doesn't want to count on rookies at important positions or look to people with a history of alcoholism - what did his choices of coaches say about that? Poor Mike?
Third, there were many articles and pressers that mentioned this coaching staff and the Head Coach had a lot of input/say on the draft. Do we really think that was because Ray Farmer is a just a selfless great guy without an ego welcoming teamwork? Or, maybe - just maybe, the owner (Haslem) encouraged them to work together?
Fourth, if this staff didn't lose this team - does Travis Benjamin have to announce when he becomes a free agent next year he'd like to stay only if we have the right staff in place? Players aren't stupid. Veterans pretty much know if a scheme is going to sink or swim. Cal posted Mario Williams' complaint about the same defensive scheme Buffalo has right now frustrating their front 7 with too much thinking and not enough sic em, sock em and sack em. Even a frequent Pro Bowl player like Kyle Williams wasn't having one of his better seasons before landing on IR. A lot of our higher investments on defense were off to a bad start this year especially Joe Haden (even before he got injured), Kruger, Whitner, Des Bryant, etc. The more that continued - the more frustration intercepted trust of schemes. It's way easier to play like a Brown when there's a reward for their efforts on the scoreboard at the end of 3 hours. On the other hand, when you lose all of your last 5 games and only start the next year 2-10 - questions arise. What is the 2-15 record/trend showing us aside from ranking 32nd in many defensive categories and 31st at running the football? Good teaching? Sound schemes? Or, just all Ray Farmer's and Jimmy Haslem's fault?
My worry was never Jimmy O'Neil and still isn't. My worry is what he represents. A Head Coach that wants to shove his ego down our esophagus that his Rex Ryan Defense just HAS to work above and beyond bringing in an experienced DC with new ideas above and beyond the only scheme Pettine has ever known.If he has to fire O'Neil - he'll probably just hire a Defensive Coach from Ryan's staff that Buffalo's vets are less than thrilled with.
Surprisingly, I agree with Pettine that they're trying. I'm sure we're agreeing for different reasons. He wants/needs fans to rally with Poor Mike was never given anything to work with. I'm coming from Hey Welcome to Cleveland - this is exactly what you signed up for. Teach, train, develop, evaluate, prepare, practice, kickoff and kickass. Rinse and repeat. If that's too tough - next?
I don't want to start over every 2 years either but that shouldn't mean we need to hand tenure to a trend of 2-15 with 37-3 as our most recent loss. I'm not seeing enough silver linings or promise to assure me otherwise. My guess is what Haslem learned from the Rooneys is when your program has a winning tradition - you get much better candidates interested in your Head Coach vacancies.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!"
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