Orchard covering Boldin
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no...there are 5 options. he and Whit play the ball....if he's on the line, there is no one over the top and a small 5 yrd pass becomes an 80 yrd TD....and Orchard is left to do what?....he's just there to slow Boldin down, but they hit him inside 5 yards.....its not like Orchard was running down the field trying to cover this guy....sheesh....have you never watched football?.....
Honestly....if you guys just wanna hack at the coach, then do it...but at least TRY to find a valid argument
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Wouldn't it be a better scheme to have a pro-bowl safety playing against their best WR, in the slot, then a rookie pass rushing OLB?
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You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
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If you are going to continually play Paul Kruger then you are misusing them.
HA!....I couldnt agree more......
They've cut his snaps by about 30 per game and, for the first time, today Armonty played the most.....Kruger has 5 tackles and 2 sacks in the last 7 games....TODAY Armonty had 7 tackles and 2 sacks....one game...
HA!....I couldnt agree more......
They've cut his snaps by about 30 per game and, for the first time, today Armonty played the most.....Kruger has 5 tackles and 2 sacks in the last 7 games....TODAY Armonty had 7 tackles and 2 sacks....one game...
To be fair, SF is shit. You know I like Armonty, but the big game he had today had alot to do with how bad SF is. The Browns are not a team that are going to be dropping 10 sacks on even an avg team...as is evidenced by this season right?
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You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
I think 24 points from the offense helped.
Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.
I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.
If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
In a 3-4 typical defense the Jack OLB is primarily a pass rusher. That requires a physique that isn't ideal for pass coverage. I don't mind the occasional zone coverage for an OLB but it didn't look like Orchard or Armonty Bryant vs Cinci were in zone coverage. If there are so many receivers out there that you need to put an OLB in coverage than maybe we should be in a nickel defense or dime defense. It's all about mismatches and I don't see the sense in making the opposing offenses job easier. We don't run a 4-3 defense where the OLB is expected to cover more.
In a 3-4 typical defense the Jack OLB is primarily a pass rusher. That requires a physique that isn't ideal for pass coverage. I don't mind the occasional zone coverage for an OLB but it didn't look like Orchard or Armonty Bryant vs Cinci were in zone coverage. If there are so many receivers out there that you need to put an OLB in coverage than maybe we should be in a nickel defense or dime defense. It's all about mismatches and I don't see the sense in making the opposing offenses job easier. We don't run a 4-3 defense where the OLB is expected to cover more.
I agree with this. Although I've given up trying to figure out who the jack and who the will is in our scheme. I don't think Oneil even knows. And it's not like it's some kind of "brilliant subterfuge" as evidenced by the fact that nearly every time we've tried it, we've gotten BURNED! This started back in preseason when I saw Kruger try and run with a TE across the middle on a 3rd and 15 against Buffalo....they converted it because, well, Kruger isn't a pass covering linebacker.
Some of you know full well I was screaming last year about why do we have two jack's on the field at the same time with Kruger and Sheard. And when we continued to do it this year I was still besides myself, it opens up way too many mismatches. In a 3-4 your will OLB'er HAS to be a smaller cover type that is also a speed rushing threat. That is Mingo. And if they didn't like Mingo they should have gotten another like him. You protect that will OLB'er in the run game with the 5 tech on his side. THe Jack is expected to be able to hold up on his own because he's more or less a slightly smaller DE that is athletic enough to drop back in zone. This defense is all over the place with it's personnel setups, if it worked consistently i'd have no complaints. We won today and that's great, but it's more because we played the one team in the league that at least right now with are more bereft of talent than we are...injuries included though.
Quinn was right to question that matchup. If it happened because we got substitutions mixed up or someone couldn't come into the game...hey fine you do with what you got. But we know now this is a willful scheme thing with this defense because we've seen it a number of times this year. And it makes no sense. It doesn't work. It will not work, not this year or the year after. A 260+ pound man isn't going to "learn the scheme" better to track men across the field many of whom run legit 4.3's. We'd be laughing our balls off if someone put a DE on Benjamin.
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I don't think they should rush every play, but I also don't think they should cover wr's either.
Cover the TE or the backs out of the backfield is fine, but not the best wr on the other team
Also even when the Raiders rushed only 3 guys, one of them was Mack. Mack wasn't covering a Wr at all today.
As for the different system, you are correct. They run a system that helps their players make plays. We don't do that.
We run a system that has us ranked last or very near last . And it seems like the coaches won't change their ways, even though the guys they have running the system, are not good at the system.
As for Brady Quinn saying stuff about our def, I have no reason to think he has ANY idea that he knows what he is talking about.
But when Jon Gruden says he has NO idea what the Browns defense is doing, I have to believe he DOES know what he's talking about
I guess we will just have to disagree.
But when Jon Gruden says he has NO idea what the Browns defense is doing, I have to believe he DOES know what he's talking about
Yeah I think if he's befuddled than that says something. Isn't the Tampa 2 named after his 4-3 defense?
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You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
I think 24 points from the offense helped.
Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.
I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.
If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.
I think 24 points from the offense helped.
Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.
I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.
If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.
Q: Under Gabbert their scoring has been???
A: Up slightly to 17.3 ppg...
And SF's defense was averaging 24.3 ppg allowed... so don't pretend a strong offensive showing paved the way to victory.
As for being the only one... he's not. Mud's just the only one to put together detailed support cases on the defensive side... the kind of cases you enjoy making and debating.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
But when Jon Gruden says he has NO idea what the Browns defense is doing, I have to believe he DOES know what he's talking about
Yeah I think if he's befuddled than that says something. Isn't the Tampa 2 named after his 4-3 defense?
Yeah I think if he's befuddled than that says something. Isn't the Tampa 2 named after his 4-3 defense?
You and 149 are kidding, right?
You both know Gruden never coached D in his collegiate/Pro life... strickly coached Offense, right?
And you know the Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and his DC, Lane Kiffin... You know the HC that Jon replaced, but was smart enough to keep his DC?
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The D didn't do bad today. Let's see if it becomes a trend. Lets ride the win for now.
Don't celebrate too hard Johnny!
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Yeah I think if he's befuddled than that says something. Isn't the Tampa 2 named after his 4-3 defense?
You and 149 are kidding, right?
You both know Gruden never coached D in his collegiate/Pro life... strickly coached Offense, right?
And you know the Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and his DC, Lane Kiffin... You know the HC that Jon replaced, but was smart enough to keep his DC?
You and 149 are kidding, right?
You both know Gruden never coached D in his collegiate/Pro life... strickly coached Offense, right?
And you know the Tampa 2 was the brain child of Dungy and his DC, Lane Kiffin... You know the HC that Jon replaced, but was smart enough to keep his DC?
no I didn't know htat, I thought Gruden was a D guy.
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Yup...
All those confusing facts... will you never stop?
Here's another one... excepting injury, Khalil is on field for every defensive snap the Raiders see.
Ha.....and just to see and, hopefully, settle it...I just found and watched the play again.....over and over....
1st down(following a punt)....and they have run personel with 2 wr, 2 te and a rb.....we counter with standard 3-4-4....
they break huddle and every man goes to the line, with the QB in an empty backfield....meaning 5 receiver set....
our guys adjust.....CB's take the wides.....inside backers take the TE's and orchard takes the slot(Kruger is rushing)....Gipson and Dansby play back 5 yards - spread and wait to play the ball.....
When snapped...Orchard looks to have first 5 yards of responsibility, with Gipsonright behind and coming up to play the ball...
To me.....defensed perfectly personnel wise and really the only option...which is why Brady Quinn comes off like a dumb ass.....didnt even see it was a 5 receiver set/////
Ha.....and just to see and, hopefully, settle it...I just found and watched the play again.....over and over....
1st down(following a punt)....and they have run personel with 2 wr, 2 te and a rb.....we counter with standard 3-4-4....
they break huddle and every man goes to the line, with the QB in an empty backfield....meaning 5 receiver set....
our guys adjust.....CB's take the wides.....inside backers take the TE's and orchard takes the slot(Kruger is rushing)....Gipson and Dansby play back 5 yards - spread and wait to play the ball.....
When snapped...Orchard looks to have first 5 yards of responsibility, with Gipsonright behind and coming up to play the ball...
To me.....defensed perfectly personnel wise and really the only option...which is why Brady Quinn comes off like a dumb ass.....didnt even see it was a 5 receiver set/////
That sounds like "graduate level" stuff Mud...
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Maybe i'm not remembering the play right but was't Orchard up at the line? Playing tight bump and run? I'm perfectly ok with him dropping into a zone and possibly giving up a short pass to Boldin but keeping him infront of him. If that's what was gonna happen hey fine, no complaints from me. But as we've seen a couple times this season, Oneil's put our OLB'ers in man coverage against slot wr's.
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Maybe i'm not remembering the play right but was't Orchard up at the line? Playing tight bump and run? I'm perfectly ok with him dropping into a zone and possibly giving up a short pass to Boldin but keeping him infront of him. If that's what was gonna happen hey fine, no complaints from me. But as we've seen a couple times this season, Oneil's put our OLB'ers in man coverage against slot wr's.
Maybe i'm not remembering the play right but was't Orchard up at the line? Playing tight bump and run? I'm perfectly ok with him dropping into a zone and possibly giving up a short pass to Boldin but keeping him infront of him. If that's what was gonna happen hey fine, no complaints from me. But as we've seen a couple times this season, Oneil's put our OLB'ers in man coverage against slot wr's.
same difference.....the safeties were playing zone(safety valves) and it was a quick 4 yd slant and Orchard really just had to bump him off the line....like I said, Gipson was right there(10 yards off the line & 5yds behind Orchard and Gaines) to pick up coverage or make the tackle, depending on which one the ball went to.....
By design, we were set to prevent the long pass and keep things underneath....and it worked.....
3 plays later, the series was over.......honestly. the ONLY reason this thread is even here is because Brady Quinn made a stupid comment.....
We used our OLBs to cover 10 other pass routes, but no one is taking about that....why?.....because the TV talking heads didnt point it out for them and because the plays worked like they are supposed to....
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I would guess Jon Gruden knows more about defenses then ANYONE on this forum. Being an offensive coach means he studies defenses. And when he says the Browns defense is playing something he doesn't know what it was, I will take his word for it
Almost everyone on here thinks Bernie can pick apart a defense. But he's an offensive guy so what does he know
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
Of course Gruden was smart to keep Kiffin as def cord in Tampa. If Gruden came here do you think he's keep O'neil? No way
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Brady Quinn is a doofus...
Look...OLBs have to cover....at least one on every play....thats what they do.....so if it's not Orchard, its gonna be Kruger or Armonty or Mingo....
Everybodies popular choice is Mingo...but then you're playing your worst backer every play....so instead, we use Orchard, Kruger and Armonty more often...but ONE of ems gonna have to cover...
And on the play in question?....Orchard had decent coverage, just gabbbed the guy....it happens...
....
BQ is a dumbass and didnt understand defenses...THAT s why he sucked...
Brady Quinn is a doofus...
Look...OLBs have to cover....at least one on every play....thats what they do.....so if it's not Orchard, its gonna be Kruger or Armonty or Mingo....
Everybodies popular choice is Mingo...but then you're playing your worst backer every play....so instead, we use Orchard, Kruger and Armonty more often...but ONE of ems gonna have to cover...
And on the play in question?....Orchard had decent coverage, just gabbbed the guy....it happens...
....
BQ is a dumbass and didnt understand defenses...THAT s why he sucked...
So, what are the cornerbacks and safeties? Potted plants? The opponents best WR probably being covered by a LB only is absurd.
Should they be giving help coverage? Sure....but not primary coverage.
They should be covering RBs coming out on the field.
And hell, if it is a "passing down" then you would have the nickel defense in, no? 5 DBs.
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Brady Quinn is a doofus...
Look...OLBs have to cover....at least one on every play....thats what they do.....so if it's not Orchard, its gonna be Kruger or Armonty or Mingo....
Everybodies popular choice is Mingo...but then you're playing your worst backer every play....so instead, we use Orchard, Kruger and Armonty more often...but ONE of ems gonna have to cover...
And on the play in question?....Orchard had decent coverage, just gabbbed the guy....it happens...
....
BQ is a dumbass and didnt understand defenses...THAT s why he sucked...
So, what are the cornerbacks and safeties? Potted plants? The opponents best WR probably being covered by a LB only is absurd.
Should they be giving help coverage? Sure....but not primary coverage.
They should be covering RBs coming out on the field.
And hell, if it is a "passing down" then you would have the nickel defense in, no? 5 DBs.
So, what are the cornerbacks and safeties? Potted plants? The opponents best WR probably being covered by a LB only is absurd.
Should they be giving help coverage? Sure....but not primary coverage.
They should be covering RBs coming out on the field.
And hell, if it is a "passing down" then you would have the nickel defense in, no? 5 DBs.
It wasn't a "passing" down, as Ive already said several times......it was 1st down, deep in their own territory and they had run personnel in.....2 te's and RB.....which is gonna be a run the high percentage of the time.....you dont normally play nickle personnel against 2 TE's and a RB....
and Orchard only had him for the first few yards, with Gipson right there to take the route.....
Again...there were 5 receivers at the line(and an empty backfield)).....we defensed it to keep the pass underneath and not allow a big gain....and it worked....
yet, somehow, it didnt?......
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