Jonathan Paul Manziel
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He definitely has improved.....but, to balance all the enthusiasm......his best game is still slightly "below" McCowns average for the year.....and we ALL know what so many have said about him , right?
So....with McCown, what is known as "average" and "13 year back up quality".....is consider "great"(by some) when Johnny does it...
Actually Mudfly, I would disagree with you. And I have the evidence to support it. Let's agree that QB rating is established as an accurate tool to assess a QB's performance. If you look at QB ratings for 2015, Manziel has the best game of the year for the Browns (by far) in Week 2 against the Titans. In fact, that was the 19th best game by a Cleveland QB EVER (with 15+ attempts). Kosar had a better game on 4 occasions in his career. Vinny did it twice, as did Couch. Quinn? McCoy? Hoyer? McCown? Never.
Over the last 6 games of the season, Manziel's two games have QB ratings both above 92 (week 10 at 95.8, last week at 92.1), and those other 4 games with those other QB's were all below 90. Lowest QBratings for the year? McCown's 63.3 in Week 6, and Austin Davis' 71.2 a week ago.
As far as QB play ON THE FIELD is concerned, the evidence is pretty clear who the best option is for the Browns. The two of three wins with Manziel underscores it as well. When you consider Manziel doesn't have a single season of games (cumulative) under center, and I would think there is plenty of room for enthusiasm. At least as far as the QB position goes.
He definitely has improved.....but, to balance all the enthusiasm......his best game is still slightly "below" McCowns average for the year.....and we ALL know what so many have said about him , right?
So....with McCown, what is known as "average" and "13 year back up quality".....is consider "great"(by some) when Johnny does it...
Let's agree that QB rating is established as an accurate tool to assess a QB's performance.
No, let's not....because I don't think it is all that accurate.
If you look at QB ratings for 2015, Manziel has the best game of the year for the Browns (by far) in Week 2 against the Titans. In fact, that was the 19th best game by a Cleveland QB EVER (with 15+ attempts). Kosar had a better game on 4 occasions in his career. Vinny did it twice, as did Couch. Quinn? McCoy? Hoyer? McCown? Never.
Over the last 6 games of the season, Manziel's two games have QB ratings both above 92 (week 10 at 95.8, last week at 92.1), and those other 4 games with those other QB's were all below 90. Lowest QBratings for the year? McCown's 63.3 in Week 6, and Austin Davis' 71.2 a week ago.
As far as QB play ON THE FIELD is concerned, the evidence is pretty clear who the best option is for the Browns. The two of three wins with Manziel underscores it as well. When you consider Manziel doesn't have a single season of games (cumulative) under center, and I would think there is plenty of room for enthusiasm. At least as far as the QB position goes.
I think what there is room for is tempered optimism. JFF has played well against the bums of the league: Titan/49ers (The Browns really are a better team than all these). Against a good team, say, the Steelers....he got a lot of yards but few points...and scoring points is what it is all about.
But I do think the next 3 games could be very telling.
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He definitely has improved.....but, to balance all the enthusiasm......his best game is still slightly "below" McCowns average for the year.....and we ALL know what so many have said about him , right?
So....with McCown, what is known as "average" and "13 year back up quality".....is consider "great"(by some) when Johnny does it...
Actually Mudfly, I would disagree with you. And I have the evidence to support it. Let's agree that QB rating is established as an accurate tool to assess a QB's performance. If you look at QB ratings for 2015, Manziel has the best game of the year for the Browns (by far) in Week 2 against the Titans. In fact, that was the 19th best game by a Cleveland QB EVER (with 15+ attempts). Kosar had a better game on 4 occasions in his career. Vinny did it twice, as did Couch. Quinn? McCoy? Hoyer? McCown? Never.
Over the last 6 games of the season, Manziel's two games have QB ratings both above 92 (week 10 at 95.8, last week at 92.1), and those other 4 games with those other QB's were all below 90. Lowest QBratings for the year? McCown's 63.3 in Week 6, and Austin Davis' 71.2 a week ago.
As far as QB play ON THE FIELD is concerned, the evidence is pretty clear who the best option is for the Browns. The two of three wins with Manziel underscores it as well. When you consider Manziel doesn't have a single season of games (cumulative) under center, and I would think there is plenty of room for enthusiasm. At least as far as the QB position goes.
He definitely has improved.....but, to balance all the enthusiasm......his best game is still slightly "below" McCowns average for the year.....and we ALL know what so many have said about him , right?
So....with McCown, what is known as "average" and "13 year back up quality".....is consider "great"(by some) when Johnny does it...
Actually Mudfly, I would disagree with you. And I have the evidence to support it. Let's agree that QB rating is established as an accurate tool to assess a QB's performance. If you look at QB ratings for 2015, Manziel has the best game of the year for the Browns (by far) in Week 2 against the Titans. In fact, that was the 19th best game by a Cleveland QB EVER (with 15+ attempts). Kosar had a better game on 4 occasions in his career. Vinny did it twice, as did Couch. Quinn? McCoy? Hoyer? McCown? Never.
Over the last 6 games of the season, Manziel's two games have QB ratings both above 92 (week 10 at 95.8, last week at 92.1), and those other 4 games with those other QB's were all below 90. Lowest QBratings for the year? McCown's 63.3 in Week 6, and Austin Davis' 71.2 a week ago.
As far as QB play ON THE FIELD is concerned, the evidence is pretty clear who the best option is for the Browns. The two of three wins with Manziel underscores it as well. When you consider Manziel doesn't have a single season of games (cumulative) under center, and I would think there is plenty of room for enthusiasm. At least as far as the QB position goes.
Right....not putting too much stock in this argument, because passer rating is one small part or the equation.....and picking ONE game and using that as your argument doesnt work.....hell I could pick his worst game and then debate that he's the worst ever too(cause he DID have the worst game ever for a Browns QB).....
BTW....Gerome Harrison has the Browns all time best ever rushing game for a Browns running back.....whats that tell ya....cause I can tell ya it doesnt mean he's the best Browns RB ever....
Body of work is the only way to rate a player.....and Johnnys body of work is limited and divided....
Part I was terrible.......Part II is showing promise........Part III is yet to come.....
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He definitely has improved.....but, to balance all the enthusiasm......his best game is still slightly "below" McCowns average for the year.....and we ALL know what so many have said about him , right?
So....with McCown, what is known as "average" and "13 year back up quality".....is consider "great"(by some) when Johnny does it...
Actually Mudfly, I would disagree with you. And I have the evidence to support it. Let's agree that QB rating is established as an accurate tool to assess a QB's performance. If you look at QB ratings for 2015, Manziel has the best game of the year for the Browns (by far) in Week 2 against the Titans. In fact, that was the 19th best game by a Cleveland QB EVER (with 15+ attempts). Kosar had a better game on 4 occasions in his career. Vinny did it twice, as did Couch. Quinn? McCoy? Hoyer? McCown? Never.
Over the last 6 games of the season, Manziel's two games have QB ratings both above 92 (week 10 at 95.8, last week at 92.1), and those other 4 games with those other QB's were all below 90. Lowest QBratings for the year? McCown's 63.3 in Week 6, and Austin Davis' 71.2 a week ago.
As far as QB play ON THE FIELD is concerned, the evidence is pretty clear who the best option is for the Browns. The two of three wins with Manziel underscores it as well. When you consider Manziel doesn't have a single season of games (cumulative) under center, and I would think there is plenty of room for enthusiasm. At least as far as the QB position goes.
Right....not putting too much stock in this argument, because passer rating is one small part or the equation.....and picking ONE game and using that as your argument doesnt work.....hell I could pick his worst game and then debate that he's the worst ever too(cause he DID have the worst game ever for a Browns QB).....
BTW....Gerome Harrison has the Browns all time best ever rushing game for a Browns running back.....whats that tell ya....cause I can tell ya it doesnt mean he's the best Browns RB ever....
Body of work is the only way to rate a player.....and Johnnys body of work is limited and divided....
Part I was terrible.......Part II is showing promise........Part III is yet to come.....
Body of work is the only way to rate a player.....and Johnnys body of work is limited and divided....
Part I was terrible.......Part II is showing promise........Part III is yet to come.....
I do believe I detect a note of, dare I say it, HOPE!
You and Tour are starting to scare me.BTW Tour-please grade out that OL. Best blocking of the year both in running game between the tackles and in QB protection. Let us know if the TE's and RB's did well with protection as well. Sure seemed all in sync.
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I'm just glad we won
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Ag.....Ive always had hope.....and always get excited when Johnny plays.....and pray and pray that he will succeed here.....
And....Im waiting for the day that you get to stand on the table and scream at the top of your lungs...."I TOLD YA SO"...
Because...for me.....THAT will b a great day!......
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He definitely has improved.....but, to balance all the enthusiasm......his best game is still slightly "below" McCowns average for the year.....and we ALL know what so many have said about him , right?
So....with McCown, what is known as "average" and "13 year back up quality".....is consider "great"(by some) when Johnny does it...
Actually Mudfly, I would disagree with you. And I have the evidence to support it. Let's agree that QB rating is established as an accurate tool to assess a QB's performance. If you look at QB ratings for 2015, Manziel has the best game of the year for the Browns (by far) in Week 2 against the Titans. In fact, that was the 19th best game by a Cleveland QB EVER (with 15+ attempts). Kosar had a better game on 4 occasions in his career. Vinny did it twice, as did Couch. Quinn? McCoy? Hoyer? McCown? Never.
Over the last 6 games of the season, Manziel's two games have QB ratings both above 92 (week 10 at 95.8, last week at 92.1), and those other 4 games with those other QB's were all below 90. Lowest QBratings for the year? McCown's 63.3 in Week 6, and Austin Davis' 71.2 a week ago.
As far as QB play ON THE FIELD is concerned, the evidence is pretty clear who the best option is for the Browns. The two of three wins with Manziel underscores it as well. When you consider Manziel doesn't have a single season of games (cumulative) under center, and I would think there is plenty of room for enthusiasm. At least as far as the QB position goes.
Right....not putting too much stock in this argument, because passer rating is one small part or the equation.....and picking ONE game and using that as your argument doesnt work.....hell I could pick his worst game and then debate that he's the worst ever too(cause he DID have the worst game ever for a Browns QB).....
BTW....Gerome Harrison has the Browns all time best ever rushing game for a Browns running back.....whats that tell ya....cause I can tell ya it doesnt mean he's the best Browns RB ever....
Body of work is the only way to rate a player.....and Johnnys body of work is limited and divided....
Part I was terrible.......Part II is showing promise........Part III is yet to come.....
Right....not putting too much stock in this argument, because passer rating is one small part or the equation.....and picking ONE game and using that as your argument doesnt work.....hell I could pick his worst game and then debate that he's the worst ever too(cause he DID have the worst game ever for a Browns QB).....
BTW....Gerome Harrison has the Browns all time best ever rushing game for a Browns running back.....whats that tell ya....cause I can tell ya it doesnt mean he's the best Browns RB ever....
Body of work is the only way to rate a player.....and Johnnys body of work is limited and divided....
Part I was terrible.......Part II is showing promise........Part III is yet to come.....
I think we are really still in part one. He has had what? 5-6 starts? That is part one.
Once he gets past say 10 starts, then he starts into part 2. (Like where Weeden/Frye/McCoy went before him).
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Ag.....Ive always had hope.....and always get excited when Johnny plays.....and pray and pray that he will succeed here.....
And....Im waiting for the day that you get to stand on the table and scream at the top of your lungs...."I TOLD YA SO"...
Because...for me.....THAT will b a great day!......
Ag.....Ive always had hope.....and always get excited when Johnny plays.....and pray and pray that he will succeed here.....
And....Im waiting for the day that you get to stand on the table and scream at the top of your lungs...."I TOLD YA SO"...
Because...for me.....THAT will b a great day!......
I know, Mud...me too. It really crushed me when I read he screwed up a few weeks ago. I felt that 6 games would be a good chunk to really evaluate him, and let the fans enjoy a little excitement. Then when the news came in...ugh. I almost couldn't believe it. But now Manziel has 4 games, which is a quarter of the season, but it's not a great sample. I'm not trying to already make excuses for the guy, but going to Seattle, then to K.C., and then home against the Steelers who will probably need a win to get into the postseason isn't exactly the most ideal set of circumstances. I'm not saying we should only see Johnny play against teams like the 49's, but AT Seattle and K.C. is just about as tough as it gets in the entire damn league. Oh, and all three of our opponents are obviously ON FIRE right now, LOL.
Johnny isn't going to be judged (in my eyes) solely on winning or losing. It's a team game, and we're playing very tough teams. Johnny DOES have to show continued improvement, and I think he will. Avoid the silly interceptions, protect the ball (fumbles), and continue to move through the reads when time allows. As I've said before, Johnny also needs to learn when to run and gash the defense. As tough as our competition is, I'm hoping for the best!
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Yep....I think the staff can evaluate him, even if we lose or play tough teams.....weve seen Johnny against two lousy teams(Tenn & SF) and he did fine....and won.....
So....really....he just needs to continue his positive progression.....work on footwork.....protect the ball.....correct teaching points from the previous week... etc
If he does, I think it could buy him another year and possibly the nod as starter going into next season...
Or.....it could buy us a better draft pick if the Browns dont trust him enough to keep around....
The truth is, Im not sure his play is all that matters...it looks like he can play...so, will the Browns have enough faith to keep him?.....or not?.....nobody knows.....
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Dude, Tour. You are above this lame arse criticism. Come on man. Even Pett didn't care.
lol... I think I've earned at least one lame-ass critique... if in fact that's what I have here...
Zombo said:
Whenever I see this thread, I read the word "energetic" with a lisp.
... but with no "s" in the word does it sound any different?
Johnny isn't going to be judged (in my eyes) solely on winning or losing.
Agree... should be something we can all agree upon... even those that have judged McC exclusively upon his W/L record.
No doubt it's a tough stretch, but that's good. We'd learn next to nothing if we played SF three more times.
Sunday will be interesting... there's a good chance that the game's two leading rushers will be QBs.
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Yep....I think the staff can evaluate him, even if we lose or play tough teams.....weve seen Johnny against two lousy teams(Tenn & SF) and he did fine....and won.....
So....really....he just needs to continue his positive progression.....work on footwork.....protect the ball.....correct teaching points from the previous week... etc
If he does, I think it could buy him another year and possibly the nod as starter going into next season...
Or.....it could buy us a better draft pick if the Browns dont trust him enough to keep around....
The truth is, Im not sure his play is all that matters...it looks like he can play...so, will the Browns have enough faith to keep him?.....or not?.....nobody knows.....
Yep....I think the staff can evaluate him, even if we lose or play tough teams.....weve seen Johnny against two lousy teams(Tenn & SF) and he did fine....and won.....
So....really....he just needs to continue his positive progression.....work on footwork.....protect the ball.....correct teaching points from the previous week... etc
If he does, I think it could buy him another year and possibly the nod as starter going into next season...
Or.....it could buy us a better draft pick if the Browns dont trust him enough to keep around....
The truth is, Im not sure his play is all that matters...it looks like he can play...so, will the Browns have enough faith to keep him?.....or not?.....nobody knows.....
You pretty much nailed it. It's almost like his ability on the field is second to his conduct. I'm not saying he's "Josh Gordon", but Josh an excellent example of supreme talent that couldn't figure it out off the field. And it's one thing to gamble with a WR and hope he figures it out, but gambling on your QB is a different animal entirely. And if Johnny can't pull his head from ass over a damn bye week, what will he do with several months off? Ugh...
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I was always a guy who "hoped" for the best with Johnny, but I was never high on drafting him, and I didn't give him much of a chance after his troubles as a rookie. But after all the drama, the suspensions, the "incidents"...I have to say that my opinion on his skills is changing.
Johnny didn't play awesome yesterday, but what he did was prove that the moment wasn't too big for him. He was prepared, knew the cadence, and we had zero pre-snap penalties...not easy to do in Seattle, and made further difficult with Greco's injury. He was under heavy pressure, yet he didn't abandon the pocket early, and he kept his head on the receivers. He made several inaccurate throws that were dropped by sub-par receivers, but even he said that he could've thrown the ball better. The opening 15 play drive that resulted in a touchdown was a thing of beauty. I believe it was the first touchdown that Seattle had given up in their last 21 drives.
What stood out to me was the severe lack of talent surrounding our quarterback. Where is the guy that can break a tackle and get into the end zone? The player that can adjust to a ball that's not thrown perfectly? The holes for our RB to burst through when we're in the red zone?
And that's just on offense. What does Johnny look like playing along side a defense that can get the ball back on 3rd down? A defense that can generate a couple of turnovers? A defense that can force FG's instead of perpetually conceding 7?
Johnny isn't perfect, so I hope nobody out here thinks I'm proclaiming him the savior of our franchise. What I AM saying is, Johnny is getting better. He doesn't look lost out there, in fact, he looks dangerous. He has a quick release, plenty of arm for intermediate routes, and he looks quicker this year. In fact, I would argue that he doesn't run nearly enough. His accuracy wasn't great during this past game, but it was still good considering the constant pressure he was under. What I don't know, and what nobody CAN know, is whether or not Johnny can remain mature enough to avoid getting into trouble.
I don't want to trade him, I don't want to draft a QB early in 2016, and I want to build a competent team around him.
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J.Football has changed my mind, also. I don't think he will ever be Drew Brees, but with a good offensive line and good receivers, I think he can be a decent qb....especially when you need to improvise. At this point I would like to see Pettine gone, but keep Manziel.
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Regarding talent level on O, I honestly think we're set for at least a winning season/playoff push, if not superbowl, with each of these guys playing to their ability:
Thomas - HOF-in-5
Bitonio - sophomore slump?
Mack - yeah he might want out, so it's over to Erving...!
Greco - solid, unspectacular
Schwartz - as far as right tackles go, top tier; side note, a true browns success story of draft and develop
Barnidge - where did he come from?
Benjamin - not as a #1, but that's not what he's built for. Like schwartz, draft and develop
Johnson - already one of the better pass catching backs around
Gordon (suspension pending) - he's the #1 Benjamin needs, if he can get on the field consistently.
We need to either remember how to run block or find a power back who can find the holes if they're there.
Big question marks on Manziel, and depth. Another TE is needed, as Dray has shown a propensity to be a revolving door in blocking and have revolving hands when receiving.
Edit: Pryor should have caught the slant pass on the first drive. Needs work, but could be very useful.
Hartline, Hawkins & Gabriel - sure, slot guys/WR3.
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i liked to see him on the sidelines talking to his offensive linemen and watching replays. having him under center also seems to open up more holes for crowell, since defenses have to watch both Manziel and the running back. It would be nice to draft a big WR that can win 1 on 1 battles or a TE that can actually block. I think the depth at QB is there, with McCown and either Davis or Shaw backing up Manziel. The Browns need more talent at CB, secondary is not the same without Haden and Tramon is slowing down.
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I'm definitely encouraged and I'm excited to see how he improves each week. There's no doubt in my mind if he can put it all together he can play at a high level in the league, but that's a HUGE if of course. Of course, he's still got areas to get better at which I'm hoping to see the next two weeks. He has to continue to improve on the field blitz against pressure and throwing it away, but those both fall heavily into the "rookie" aspects of the position.
Bottom line though is Manziel can play, and I mean really play the position which is something I haven't seen in a long time here.
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I think Johnny can do well if we are able to run the ball and create more play action opportunities. He looked good in the game where Crow ran well.
I don't think he will ever be the guy you sit back and let him gun sling the whole game.
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Manziel did OK - given the opponent and venue. He didn't have much help, but did make some poor reads and decisions - also threw high and behind on some of the longer throws.
We have two more games yet though, so let's see what happens after that. If he beats Pittsburgh in Cleveland in January then I'll be feeling better about him.
The main thing the premature circle jerkers after last week that said the team was way more energized and better and running game was opened up by Manziel learned something though. That is, not every team is the 2015 49ers.
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I agree with what everyone has said. What worries me is we're going to ruin any chance that Manziel has by not providing him a capable team around him (sound familiar?) Christ, at one time Manziel was throwing the ball to Marlan Moore, Terrell Pryor, Jim Dray, and Travis Benjamin. But offense is just one part of it. What happens when Manziel can play with a solid defense? We got a glimpse of it against Tennessee and San Francisco. When he gets the ball back from a punt or a turnover, he starts to find a rhythm. A rhythm isn't exactly easy to find when your defense doesn't force a damn punt and the QB is sitting on the bench for extended amounts of time.
It's not easy to evaluate a young QB when the team is playing AT perhaps the toughest venue in professional sports, who just happens to have a crazy defense. And by the way, traveling to Kansas City might be the SECOND toughest place to play in the NFL, so he has THAT going for him...which is nice. And the icing on the cake is the Steelers game at home. The same Steelers team that somehow almost put up a 40 burger on the best defense in the league.
I'd love to see what Johnny can do in a close game. What's he look like when we're down 4 with 2 minutes left, and we need a TD? Or what's he play like when we're up 2 points and we have to close the game out? When we get down 17 points or more, the opposition knows we're passing it, and they can just tee off. That's difficult for the most seasoned QB's, let alone a second year guy with limited experience and more limited weapons.
Johnny has impressed me, and I didn't think I'd say that. Not only that, but the guy is FUN to watch! I like watching him execute a nice fake, looking down field, not knowing if he will run or pass...it's exciting. He's not fumbling the ball anymore (I don't think yesterday really counts), he's not throwing a ton of poor passes, and he largely looks in control. And that ball comes out HOT. I think the accuracy will come around a bit, and I really do believe that Manziel provides a spark to everyone on the team.
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Manziel did OK - given the opponent and venue. He didn't have much help, but did make some poor reads and decisions - also threw high and behind on some of the longer throws.
We have two more games yet though, so let's see what happens after that. If he beats Pittsburgh in Cleveland in January then I'll be feeling better about him.
The main thing the premature circle jerkers after last week that said the team was way more energized and better and running game was opened up by Manziel learned something though. That is, not every team is the 2015 49ers.
Manziel did OK - given the opponent and venue. He didn't have much help, but did make some poor reads and decisions - also threw high and behind on some of the longer throws.
We have two more games yet though, so let's see what happens after that. If he beats Pittsburgh in Cleveland in January then I'll be feeling better about him.
The main thing the premature circle jerkers after last week that said the team was way more energized and better and running game was opened up by Manziel learned something though. That is, not every team is the 2015 49ers.
No, you're right, but in the same spirit, not every team is Seattle either. And not every game is AT a place like Seattle. Not making excuses, as you are correct. His accuracy was iffy at times, but as you stated, he didn't have a bunch of help. Hindsight is 20/20, and I do believe that McCown gave us the best chance to win more games, but the problem is, what good did McCown playing do for the FUTURE of our team? Now we're starting to see some progress out of a first round draft pick (the HELL you say?!), and we're running out of season. How much progress can we really expect against the 3 hottest teams in the damn league (besides the ridiculous Panthers, who somehow weren't on our schedule)?
The damn Steelers scored a shitload of points against a nasty defense. God help our boys when they come to town. So once again, Manziel will be down 20 points and we'll be throwing it every down, and he'll be running for his life. I don't expect to beat K.C., but even they scored about 35 points this week (albeit against a bad Ravens team). If we can win one, it'll be next week. I'd love it.
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