A 4-12 team is a 4-12 team.....
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OK, so....we go and draft 1 or 2 stars..... One should be with our 1st draft pick. I doubt one would be a FA.
Another could be a lower pick if we are lucky.
And maybe one could come from the rookies and 2d year men we already have.
(and get those guys back healthy)
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Another approach well constructed... The ensuing debate of it ought to be an interesting as the last one. It has brought two related points back to my mind.
1. In the 2014 draft we only took 5 players because a full need assessment was not completed and scouting was incomplete. Delays in filling both staff and FO positions were the cause. Rather than guess, picks were limited and accumulated for 2015.
2. Prior to the start of the season by and large, I think even to the point of forming a consensus, that we here believed that we had improved our depth at least in part by picking more starter level talent. Only 2 rookie names appear under Pet's name: Shelton and Johnson.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
no matter how many good players or play makers we get, an inept front office will find a way to screw it up.
Great break down on the players under coaches Mud
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no matter how many good players or play makers we get, an inept front office will find a way to screw it up.
Great break down on the players under coaches Mud
Great break down on the players under coaches Mud
Thanks.....sometimes it helps to see it in writing.....not a true breakdown, just a list.....but it IS telling, isnt it?
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Another approach well constructed... The ensuing debate of it ought to be an interesting as the last one. It has brought two related points back to my mind.
1. In the 2014 draft we only took 5 players because a full need assessment was not completed and scouting was incomplete. Delays in filling both staff and FO positions were the cause. Rather than guess, picks were limited and accumulated for 2015.
2. Prior to the start of the season by and large, I think even to the point of forming a consensus, that we here believed that we had improved our depth at least in part by picking more starter level talent. Only 2 rookie names appear under Pet's name: Shelton and Johnson.
The ensuing debate of it ought to be an interesting as the last one. It has brought two related points back to my mind.
2. Prior to the start of the season by and large, I think even to the point of forming a consensus, that we here believed that we had improved our depth at least in part by picking more starter level talent. Only 2 rookie names appear under Pet's name: Shelton and Johnson.
I do think we have improved some of the depth and we have some youth that might "someday" become top players....just hasnt happend yet.....
Next year Id expect Orchard & Duke to be everyday starters......but, cant think of any other new players(from '14-'15) that look ready to be everyday players....and cant think of ANY that Id expect to be Pro-Bowl caliber stars...(maybe Bito)....
Desir, Gaines, Erving, Crow, Kirksey, Cooper, Telfer, M. Johnson, Ekpre Olomu, Gilbert, Manziel and the rest are completely unproven and, right now, look like possible role players or average NFL starters at best....
But dont see any future stars that are obvious.....
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I want to see more of both Gaines and Cooper in these next 4 games.
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Great break down on the players under coaches Mud
Thanks.....sometimes it helps to see it in writing.....not a true breakdown, just a list.....but it IS telling, isnt it?
This is what I've been bitching about most of the season.Thanks.....sometimes it helps to see it in writing.....not a true breakdown, just a list.....but it IS telling, isnt it?
Farmer has brought in a couple of decent FA signings, but his ability to hit on a first round impact players sucks ass.
Outside of the OL, and secondary, this team is talent deprived.
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So I did a little exercise trying to sort out the player "improvements" on this team vs the losses....
First thing I did was go back to Mangini/Shurmur/Chud etc....as they were all fired for being bad...right?
The teams records over those years looks like this 4-12, 5-11, 5-11, 4-12, 5-11, 4-12 & 7-9 (Pett)...
So the coach we're gonna fire has the BEST record in the last 8 seasons......but.as a basis, lets assume that Pettine inherited a 4-12 team....because he did and the history indicates that.......
And...I KNOW....a lot of people think we installed major improvements....but have we really???....
I see a few seeds that have been planted, but none have really flourished yet....and I see a 4-12 team that has YET to have one single contributing star or difference maker added .....or drafted.....
So....lets look at the 4-12 team Chud had and compare it with the team Pettine has had for this season...shall we?????......Players are listed are the ones who played the majority of snaps/reps
POS: CHUD Pettine
WR1 GORDON BENJIMAN
WR2 LITTLE HARTLINE
OT THOMAS THOMAS
OG GRECO GRECO
C MACK MACK
OG LAUVAO BITO
OT SCHWARTZ SCHWARTZ
TE CAMERON BARNIDGE
QB WEEDEN(CAMPBELL) MCCOWN(MANZIEL)
RB MCGAHEE CROW
FB OBY JOHNSON
DE RUBIN STARKS
NT TAYLOR SHELTON
DE BRYANT BRYANT
OLB KRUGER KRUGER
MLB ROBERTSON ROBERTSON
MLB JACKSON DANSBY
OLB SHEARD BRYANT
CB 1 HADEN WILLIAMS
SS WARD WHITNER
FS GIPSON GIPSON
CB 2 SKRINE DESIR (GAINES)
OK....so there are the 22 primary positions and the players who played the majority of snaps. Ive highlighted(in red) the players that "I" consider to have "had the best performances" for their perspective teams....not necessarily the best players overall.....so a good example of the would be me picking Phil Taylor over Danny Shelton, which is simply because Taylor had a decent year in2013, while Shelton played like a rookie.....
And what i see are the following points:
1) there are 4 "upgrades" compared to 8 "downgrades"....plus 10 that I consider a wash....
2) a couple washes were actually injured this year, so I still have to give Chuds team the advantage, which means an addition few "downgrades"...IE: Gipson & Mack were worse due to injury.....so 10 areas got worse and 4 area got better...
3) Not one single difference maker added...not one star ro game changer......the only "star" quality players we added were Dansby and Whitner, who are both older and on the downside of their careers and they both replaced some of our better players to begin with.....so, to me, Dansby for Jackson and Whitner for Ward were NOT significant upgrades...ok upgrades?.....sure....but not a big change...
4) Hartline, Bito and McCown all represent upgrades....but again....Hart and McCown have always been very average players and are now on the downside too....so not exactly STARS or huge difference makers....though I do give this staff credit for getting McCowns best year ever)(good job)..
So...in the end....and my point here.....is that Chud had a 4-12 team and I think THAT team actually had better players than this years team....(partly due to the serious injuries to Haden, Mack & Gipson)
And when you take a 4-12 team and remove 3(out of 5) ALL Pro players....and then throw a MUCH harder schedule at it, what really is the expectation????....an improved record?
The good news is that I didnt see Pettine inheriting any good players to develop(seeds)....but it appears he has some now....Bito, Shelton, Campbell, Orchard & Duke look like they might be some really good players over time......Gaines, Desir, Erving & Crow show promise and, at least, should be solid role players.....and there is still a glimmer of hope for Johnny......
But none of these "seeds" has been around long enough to be stars or difference makers, so we are still waiting.....
It takes stars to win.....and we havent added any since Chud....weve' swapped a few Ward 4 Whitner.....Cameron 4 Barnidge......Gordon 4 Benji.....but thats it......
And we let Sheard go and replaced him with crap(solomon/Mingo)....which seems to have really hurt this team this year.....
So....if anyone can justify how the above team is somehow supposed to be so MUCH better than Chuds team.....please explain where.....
So....lets look at the 4-12 team Chud had and compare it with the team Pettine has had for this season...shall we?????......Players are listed are the ones who played the majority of snaps/reps
POS: CHUD Pettine
WR1 GORDON BENJIMAN
WR2 LITTLE HARTLINE
OT THOMAS THOMAS
OG GRECO GRECO
C MACK MACK
OG LAUVAO BITO
OT SCHWARTZ SCHWARTZ
TE CAMERON BARNIDGE
QB WEEDEN(CAMPBELL) MCCOWN(MANZIEL)
RB MCGAHEE CROW
FB OBY JOHNSON
DE RUBIN STARKS
NT TAYLOR SHELTON
DE BRYANT BRYANT
OLB KRUGER KRUGER
MLB ROBERTSON ROBERTSON
MLB JACKSON DANSBY
OLB SHEARD BRYANT
CB 1 HADEN WILLIAMS
SS WARD WHITNER
FS GIPSON GIPSON
CB 2 SKRINE DESIR (GAINES)
t2) a couple washes were actually injured this year, so I still have to give Chuds team the advantage, which means an addition few "downgrades"...IE: Gipson & Mack were worse due to injury.....so 10 areas got worse and 4 area got better...
So...in the end....and my point here.....is that Chud had a 4-12 team and I think THAT team actually had better players than this years team....(partly due to the serious injuries to Haden, Mack & Gipson)
And when you take a 4-12 team and remove 3(out of 5) ALL Pro players....and then throw a MUCH harder schedule at it, what really is the expectation????....an improved record?
It takes stars to win.....and we havent added any since Chud....weve' swapped a few Ward 4 Whitner.....Cameron 4 Barnidge......Gordon 4 Benji.....but thats it......
So....if anyone can justify how the above team is somehow supposed to be so MUCH better than Chuds team.....please explain where.....
some of your best stuff here mud. Only thing that I can add is I liked Chud in a Toledo connection but the QB play was not good with Weeds nor Campbell. It's always been our QB play that get's coaches fired since the rebirth.. It maybe Pets D game that cost his. we shall see.. Oneil must be one hell of a friend.
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Jackson is a leader for the Colts, TJ Ward has added to Denvers dominance, Sheard is playing exceptionally well and a difference maker in New England
We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.
DAMN THE TORPEDOES! FULL SPEED AHEAD! -
The ensuing debate of it ought to be an interesting as the last one. It has brought two related points back to my mind.
2. Prior to the start of the season by and large, I think even to the point of forming a consensus, that we here believed that we had improved our depth at least in part by picking more starter level talent. Only 2 rookie names appear under Pet's name: Shelton and Johnson.
I do think we have improved some of the depth and we have some youth that might "someday" become top players....just hasnt happend yet.....
Next year Id expect Orchard & Duke to be everyday starters......but, cant think of any other new players(from '14-'15) that look ready to be everyday players....and cant think of ANY that Id expect to be Pro-Bowl caliber stars...(maybe Bito)....
Desir, Gaines, Erving, Crow, Kirksey, Cooper, Telfer, M. Johnson, Ekpre Olomu, Gilbert, Manziel and the rest are completely unproven and, right now, look like possible role players or average NFL starters at best....
But dont see any future stars that are obvious.....
Can you give some insight on Erving? Is it because he's playing out of position. There are teams that would kill to have him. What's the future for him?I do think we have improved some of the depth and we have some youth that might "someday" become top players....just hasnt happend yet.....
Next year Id expect Orchard & Duke to be everyday starters......but, cant think of any other new players(from '14-'15) that look ready to be everyday players....and cant think of ANY that Id expect to be Pro-Bowl caliber stars...(maybe Bito)....
Desir, Gaines, Erving, Crow, Kirksey, Cooper, Telfer, M. Johnson, Ekpre Olomu, Gilbert, Manziel and the rest are completely unproven and, right now, look like possible role players or average NFL starters at best....
But dont see any future stars that are obvious.....
DAMN THE TORPEDOES! FULL SPEED AHEAD! -
Jackson is a leader for the Colts, TJ Ward has added to Denvers dominance, Sheard is playing exceptionally well and a difference maker in New England
We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.
Jackson is a leader for the Colts, TJ Ward has added to Denvers dominance, Sheard is playing exceptionally well and a difference maker in New England
We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.
Farmer has been able to resigned 2 players. John Hughes & Barney. Till we build a steady organization with less drama & not changing systems like panties, theses type players will continue to walk to greener pastures. Gipson, Mack & Schwartz up next & Schwartz should already be done with his output this season?
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Mud, one thing I'd change is making this year's Schwartz better than Chud's schwartz, and this year's Robertson better than Chud's Robertson. To say both guys are the same therefore played at the same level is wrong, both are much better players than they were.
That might be two things, I guess.
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Losing Sheard really pissed me off, and watching him have another solid game the other night drove me insane. Man, do we need people like him or what? I don't remember the exact circumstances of his departure, so I'm not really sure if we could've even resigned him. Hindsight is obviously 20/20, but there were many fans and analysts that weren't happy about him leaving.
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Both of these teams had some heartbreaking close losses/couldn't finish.
2013 it was New England (ugh ... still hurts) and Jax games.
But take a look at this year's close losses and let me know if it changes your perception of this team:
SD 30 Browns 27 ... Chargers missing game-winning FG, Browns called offsides, Charger get to kick again from shorter distance, and win. EVIDENCE SHOWS BROWNS WERE NOT OFFSIDES McCown 356 yds and a rating of 119. Time of possession: Browns 34:19 To 24:14
Den 26 Browns 23 OT ... Browns intercept Manning 3 times, including one in overtime in Browns territory,but then go backward featuring Robert Turbin running around end against Bronco defense.. This one is on us ... but we should have won it.
Ravens 33 Browns 27 ... Browns engineer comeback, line up for winnng FG and it is blocked, bounces right to the ravens, and they return it all the way for a TD with tim expired. EVIDENCE SHOWS RAVENS WERE LINED UP OFFSIDES.
So we are three plays from 6-7. If we were 6-7 right now, with all of the injuries (McCown, Hawk, Gabe, Bito, Haden, Gipson, etc.) against a tough schedule in a tough division, does it change your perspective of this team?
Does it make you look at Pettine differently ... grinding at 6-7 with roster holes?
How bout Farmer? Still missing on the big picks but finding some promising gems.
McCown? I think most of us respect his job, but for those hate him becuase of his record, he is 4-4 as a Brown instead of 1-7 in this scenario.
Just something to consider.
Here is how I would describe my relationship with Mike Pettine: I only hate him on Sundays.
I like the way he handles the roster. I like the way he handles/handled the Brat Pack from last year (Gilbert, Johnny, West). I like the way he talks in his pressers. He comes off as honest, thoughtful, dedicated, committed and forthright.
But when I see him on Sundays standing there, unable to manage a clock, unable to stop a team from running on us, getting gutted by the Bungles twice in year two, losing close games that were so winnable ... I want to kick him in the teeth.
But if I had to choose one to keep, Pet of Farmer, I would keep Pet. I doubt it ends up that way though.
Zombo
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Mud, one thing I'd change is making this year's Schwartz better than Chud's schwartz, and this year's Robertson better than Chud's Robertson. To say both guys are the same therefore played at the same level is wrong, both are much better players than they were.
That might be two things, I guess.
Mud, one thing I'd change is making this year's Schwartz better than Chud's schwartz, and this year's Robertson better than Chud's Robertson. To say both guys are the same therefore played at the same level is wrong, both are much better players than they were.
Yeah, I could definitely agree with that....didnt really want to get too into it with this guy or that....as the primary point was to show no serious upgrades happened anywhere....just small incremental stuff....And that some big drop offs like Gordon, Mack or Sheard happened, with no comparable or better replacements.. ...
So....in the end......my question is simply how much better is this team than that 4-12 team?.....
Zombo said:
Both of these teams had some heartbreaking close losses/couldn't finish.
But take a look at this year's close losses and let me know if it changes your perception of this team:
So we are three plays from 6-7. If we were 6-7 right now, with all of the injuries (McCown, Hawk, Gabe, Bito, Haden, Gipson, etc.) against a tough schedule in a tough division, does it change your perspective of this team?
Just something to consider.
But if I had to choose one to keep, Pet of Farmer, I would keep Pet. I doubt it ends up that way though.
Zombo
I think we are kind of in the same boat...maybe?......as I agree with you on some of those wins that got snatched away.....and if you factor in the loss of our pass D, then it really hits home.....
Plus....like you did here....we can take a walk back to last season and see we won a few that we were kinda lucky to win and that coulda shoulda been losses.....and to me, some of those games really showed toughness late, the ability to adjust at the half and a team willing to fight to the end.....all of which came off as good coaching......
.....like the record comeback against Tennessee ......or our last second victories over NO and Atl.....
So....like you said, with a few plays that go the other way, we could be 6-7 right now........and if a few plays went the other way last year, we could have just as easily been 4-12.....
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Jackson is a leader for the Colts, TJ Ward has added to Denvers dominance, Sheard is playing exceptionally well and a difference maker in New England
We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.
Jackson is a leader for the Colts, TJ Ward has added to Denvers dominance, Sheard is playing exceptionally well and a difference maker in New England
We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.
The Browns lost "chemistry" when their entire defensive line left: Sheard, Rubin, Taylor, Kitchen, Winn.
But, that said, that group didn't make anyone forget the Fearsome Foursome or the Purple People Eaters.
The kids we have now could turn out better...with time....and proper coaching. (which they have not gotten to this point)
And,yes, DQwell was a good leader....but he was not a good tackler....unless you are talking 8-10 yards downfield.
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Jackson is a leader for the Colts, TJ Ward has added to Denvers dominance, Sheard is playing exceptionally well and a difference maker in New England
We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.
The Browns lost "chemistry" when their entire defensive line left: Sheard, Rubin, Taylor, Kitchen, Winn.
But, that said, that group didn't make anyone forget the Fearsome Foursome or the Purple People Eaters.
The kids we have now could turn out better...with time....and proper coaching. (which they have not gotten to this point)
And,yes, DQwell was a good leader....but he was not a good tackler....unless you are talking 8-10 yards downfield.
And,yes, DQwell was a good leader....but he was not a good tackler....
Well, he has a hell of a lot of tackles for being "not a good tackler", considering that he's approaching top 10 all time right now with 1100 + tackles.......
If he plays a couple more years, he has a good chance to finish as one of the TOP 5 tacklers in NFL history....
But, I do get your point.....they weren't "good" tackles......ha!
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Chud had a better defensive personnel in my opinion. I recall that being a pretty good year for our guys and when we thought we could emerge into an elite secondary with a couple more pieces.
But really, they were both pretty bad teams.
If we can get the 2013 Gordon, Haden, Mack, Gipson to get back into form in 2016 things look a lot better for us than they do otherwise.
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If a tackle happens 5 yards further up the field than it should have, is it still a good tackle?
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Zombo that's my go to take on any Browns season.
Any time the team plays well enough to win and is robbed by such a tiny twist of fate it's infuriating.
And as much as I don't agree with what I think Mike Pettine's shortcomings might be, if I were Jimmy I keep the staff in place for another year. As a matter of fact I'd make that announcement today.
Next season we should face a slightly easier schedule and add one more year to the team familiarizing themselves with whatever system is in place.
He gives us another 4 and 12 or 5 and 11 season, fire him with no regret.
WSS
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