Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I don't think anyone here actually believes that the recent "off the field " problems have contributed one way or the other toward his progression as a professional quarterback.
Some of you will argue that the fact that he wasn't honest with the staff are egregious but still even you you have to convince yourselves that the action of being out for a night hampered his actual progress.
I would imagine that there will be photo ops between the Super Bowl and the opening of training camp which will probably freak some people here out.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Oh, I think we'll know by draft time if JM can get the off field issue resolved or not, because if it's not, he has show no ability whatsoever to hide it.
Yeah...I miss read that.....and I agree about the off the field stuff.....the long lay off will reveal where he is at.....
Can you imagine the fury in Pettine if he's fired, then some new coach comes in with his D staff, keeps flip, and Manziel plays lights out?
Ha!.....something to keep him awake at night.........for years to come......
And as much of an I told you so moment that might be hope it doesn't happen. I hope everyone stays in place and the cards fall in our favor next season for everyone.Yeah...I miss read that.....and I agree about the off the field stuff.....the long lay off will reveal where he is at.....
Ha!.....something to keep him awake at night.........for years to come......
WSS
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I don't think anyone here actually believes that the recent "off the field " problems have contributed one way or the other toward his progression as a professional quarterback.
Some of you will argue that the fact that he wasn't honest with the staff are egregious but still even you you have to convince yourselves that the action of being out for a night hampered his actual progress.
I would imagine that there will be photo ops between the Super Bowl and the opening of training camp which will probably freak some people here out.
WSS
... you have to convince yourselves that the action of being out for a night hampered his actual progress.
Steve,
No, I do not have to convince myself of any such thing.
Hope y'all are sitting because (shocker) I'm going the other way...
JM pissed away 2014. Nothing changes that. By contrast 2015 had been a joy. Then came the lie... that's a whole new level of mistrust that require a whole new level of promise to be demonstrated in the closing games. So far I haven't seen it in 2 games.
But that's only half my equation...
If I become convinced that there's a low maintenance QB with a high degree of franchise potential in the 2016 draft, I pull the trigger.
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... you have to convince yourselves that the action of being out for a night hampered his actual progress.
Steve,
No, I do not have to convince myself of any such thing.
Hope y'all are sitting because (shocker) I'm going the other way...
JM pissed away 2014. Nothing changes that. By contrast 2015 had been a joy. Then came the lie... that's a whole new level of mistrust that require a whole new level of promise to be demonstrated in the closing games. So far I haven't seen it in 2 games.
But that's only half my equation...
If I become convinced that there's a low maintenance QB with a high degree of franchise potential in the 2016 draft, I pull the trigger.
If I become convinced that there's a low maintenance QB with a high degree of franchise potential in the 2016 draft, I pull the trigger.
LOL! Good luck with that. So far I certainly have not seen one "with a high degree of franchise potential". We all would have been hearing rave reviews well before now a la Manning or Luck.
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Manning and Luck were lead-pipe-cinch, franchise prospects with unquestioned performance floors. Both had demonstrated the ability to consistently throw with anticipation in college. The only discussion around them was how high was their ceiling.
I am not talking about odds that high. As of now I do not need odds anywhere near that high to surpass JM's potential... but there are 2 games to go.
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Aha - A different definition of "high franchise potential" than mine. I was assuming you meant like the last 3 QB's taken in the top 3 since that is where we will be picking. And if we take one of those out there this year as our top choice that is looking like it will be that high, then we have done the classic "reach", not BPA.
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There ya go...
For me "franchise" is a third tier designation... what you were thinking would be my "elite" candidate.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
There ya go...
For me "franchise" is a third tier designation... what you were thinking would be my "elite" candidate.
There ya go...
For me "franchise" is a third tier designation... what you were thinking would be my "elite" candidate.
Second tier?
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Second tier?
I'm open to Tier names as I don't have a good one for it, but like Flugs listed in another thread there are a few members.
I'd put Wilson in the 2nd tier with Brees, Palmer, and Newton. Luck can go either way but Indy doesn't look like a safe place to play QB right now.
I think Rivers and Eli may belong in there as well. Members can definitely show elite stuff... just may be a matter of showing it over a longer period of time.
Tier 3: The Franchise guys... Bunch of good, solid QBs here like Flacco that will be provide years of good play and with the right cast around them can take their team very far.
Tier 4: The Placeholders...
Tier 5: The Auditioners...
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@NateUlrichABJ
#Browns QB Johnny Manziel said he has ton of respect for Pettine, whether I liked demotion or not, it wasn't coach's fault I did what I did
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Aw, man... just as the decision was getting easier...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
... you have to convince yourselves that the action of being out for a night hampered his actual progress.
Steve,
No, I do not have to convince myself of any such thing.
Hope y'all are sitting because (shocker) I'm going the other way...
JM pissed away 2014. Nothing changes that. By contrast 2015 had been a joy. Then came the lie... that's a whole new level of mistrust that require a whole new level of promise to be demonstrated in the closing games. So far I haven't seen it in 2 games.
But that's only half my equation...
If I become convinced that there's a low maintenance QB with a high degree of franchise potential in the 2016 draft, I pull the trigger.
Steve,
No, I do not have to convince myself of any such thing.
Hope y'all are sitting because (shocker) I'm going the other way...
JM pissed away 2014. Nothing changes that. By contrast 2015 had been a joy. Then came the lie... that's a whole new level of mistrust that require a whole new level of promise to be demonstrated in the closing games. So far I haven't seen it in 2 games.
But that's only half my equation...
If I become convinced that there's a low maintenance QB with a high degree of franchise potential in the 2016 draft, I pull the trigger.
LOL
I sat down for nothing.
WSS
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He did not even do that well in garbage time...
I agree with what everyone has said. What worries me is we're going to ruin any chance that Manziel has by not providing him a capable team around him (sound familiar?) Christ, at one time Manziel was throwing the ball to Marlan Moore, Terrell Pryor, Jim Dray, and Travis Benjamin. But offense is just one part of it. What happens when Manziel can play with a solid defense? We got a glimpse of it against Tennessee and San Francisco. When he gets the ball back from a punt or a turnover, he starts to find a rhythm. A rhythm isn't exactly easy to find when your defense doesn't force a damn punt and the QB is sitting on the bench for extended amounts of time.
It's not easy to evaluate a young QB when the team is playing AT perhaps the toughest venue in professional sports, who just happens to have a crazy defense. And by the way, traveling to Kansas City might be the SECOND toughest place to play in the NFL, so he has THAT going for him...which is nice. And the icing on the cake is the Steelers game at home. The same Steelers team that somehow almost put up a 40 burger on the best defense in the league.
It is hard for us to evaluate a QB based upon a one-time, real-time, broadcast view. It is not when you have an All-22 cut-down and 24 hours.
Excepting his feet, JM is showing most of what you want to see in a QB prospect. I can let yesterday's fumble go as a one-off, flash regression since his ball position has been much improved this year. I can't give credit for mastering play-calling late in a sophomore season. There was a lot of frantic clapping going on yesterday... some starting with 5 seconds on the play clock while our Center was still communicating line calls.
I thought the contrast between JM and Wilson was interesting especially when it came to their scrambling. JM just looked "frantic" in comparison. My impression was that this was symptomatic of their relative game speed perceptions, i.e., the game has yet to fully slow down for JM. It still may...
Additionally as I've written elsewhere, JM is not yet anticipating throws. This is the big hurdle to attaining "franchise" status. Displaying anticipation does not require a better defense, a close game or even an improved WR corps... it does not even require completions.
Not sure what triggers "anticipation" unless it's something akin to visualizing a golf shot, except at hyper speed. But I'm willing to bet it is a switch that suddenly clicks and the light goes on...
Bottom line: Mind is not changed yet, but two weeks to go...
Not sure what triggers "anticipation" unless it's something akin to visualizing a golf shot, except at hyper speed. But I'm willing to bet it is a switch that suddenly clicks and the light goes on...
It's honestly a combination of things. Knowledge of the playbook, route concepts, chemistry with receivers combined with diagnosing the defense while coming off your reads yet staying in rhythm and being accurate.
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VesnaKociper said:
What stands out to me, is the consistency. Draft a lot of offensive linemen, lets guys like Big Ben, AP, Julio Jones etc get away, and then wonder why the fucking team still sucks.
I will fix this for you: Draft a lot of offensive skill players that suck, like Braylon, Weeden, Richardson, Quinn, Manziel, K2, and wonder why the fucking team still sucks.
And, FYI, even if they had drafted all the guys you wanted them to draft....the team could still suck, give the way our defense has played this year. No OL, no WR/QB/RB/TE can make up for how bad that defense has been coached.
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VesnaKociper said:
Dumbest fucking fans in ALL of the NFL.
You guys really are dickheads. Gullible dickheads.
Pettine is the problem. His fucking guys don't tackle, block, catch, follow assignments or play with discipline.
VesnaKociper said:
Draft a lot of offensive linemen, lets guys like Big Ben, AP, Julio Jones etc get away, and then wonder why the fucking team still sucks.
See..... this is why you are the one who is a dickhead......
So.....your brilliant analysis is that it's definitely bad drafts....but oh wait... on this thread, it's the Coach ......
....Yet, everyone else is a gullible dumbass for thinking its either bad drafts...or the coach......wtf????....
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it's amazing the reaction i have after reading a ghoolie post.
don't know whether to take a shower or pull a cork.
we are all dickheads and the dumbest fans in the NFL, meanwhile he proclaims to be a browns fan as well.....so he must be a dumb dickhead fan too, correct?
or just another steeler's troll.
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As our luck would have it, we play 3 of the 4 hottest teams in the NFL to end our tortured season. I guess the only question I have is, "What? Was Carolina busy?!"
It's not easy to evaluate a young QB when he's playing very good teams that have infinite more talent on paper than we do. So what will you be looking for as proof of progress from Manziel against a red hot Kansas City team?
First thing for me in this game is not turning it over. Chief's defense is making a killing on turnovers, and they rank towards the top of the league in defensive TD's (I think). Not only do they turn the ball over, the score points when they get it. To make it worse, the Chief's offense doesn't turn it over much either. I want to see Johnny protect the football, secure the ball when he's throwing, and continue to play with intelligence.
I want to continue to see Johnny in command of the offense in yet another hostile environment. He did pretty well last week, and I don't think we had any pre-snap penalties. I know that might sound minor, but it's not. We don't have the type of offense that can "play behind the sticks", and a five yard penalty can very easily mean "punt" to us.
Additionally, I want to see better accuracy from Manziel this weekend. He was victimized by several drops last week, that's not secret, but the balls also weren't where they needed to be either. This is the NFL, and I'm not making excuses for our WR's, but even Johnny said that he didn't put the ball where he should've. The Taylor Gabriel drop is a good example. Again, he should've caught it...easily...but Johnny threw a pretty bad ball. Instead of confidently zipping it to a WIDE OPEN Gabriel, he tried to almost float it to him and the result was a high toss. He zips that ball to Gabriel in stride and it could've resulted in a big play.
I also want to see Johnny take a few more chances. I could be dead wrong, but I think he's so scared to make a mistake in the red zone that he's not making confident throws in the pay dirt. Virtually ALL young QB's struggle in red zone scoring, but Johnny needs to trust his knowledge and trust his arm. It doesn't help that he's "blessed" with tiny WR's, but I want to see Manziel take a few shot. And not just in the red zone, I want to see him take a few deep shots. His deep ball is pretty damn good, and we haven't seen much of it lately.
Lastly, I want to see Manziel RUN the ball more. Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know. The coaches want to see him improve within the pocket, BUT...I actually think his scrambling ability can HELP him improve from the pocket. Johnny gashes the defense for a few chunk runs (and slides), then the defense will have to react to it. Maybe they can't blitz as aggressively. Maybe they have to place a type of "spy" on him. All I know is, Johnny has left some big gains on the table, and while I admire his efforts to make throws from the pocket, a proficient mobile QB knows when to pass and when to run. Remember those few runs that Russell Wilson had? They are back breaking, and he was so open, that he was able to slide.
Ok, sorry for yet another long-winded post, but I have faith in Johnny. I'm starting to see the allure of his abilities. His quick release, his agility, his improvisation skills. It might not be realistic for Johnny to improve EVERY game. I mean, who doesn't have a bad game from time to time? Unfortunately for Johnny, time is running out and he needs to show SOME kind of improvement on a weekly basis. The Chiefs barely beat a bad Charges team 10-3, with the Bolts missing 4 times from the red zone as time expired to force overtime. If our defense can SOMEHOW prevent the Chiefs from scoring 30 this game, maybe we'll get to see Johnny in a pressure situation with a chance to steal a game.
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I pretty much agree. Of course not only are we playing two of hottest teams in the league we are doing so with a crumbling defense that was already bad before the DUI and firearms charges.
Also the fact that we're going without starting guards which i think is disastrous.
And no matter what anyone thinks of the receiving corps I doubt that Terrelle Pryor and Dwayne Bowe are striking fear into the hearts of the Chiefs or the squealers.
And the last two games, much like political shows on cable TV, are only there to reinforce the positions of haters or the fanboys.
And if all the information we get is from those self anointed experts here, on the radio, newspapers and television is true then it won't matter anyway since apparently everyone from the president to the GM to the coach to the ball boy to the guy that cleans the toilets in the stadium will all be fired within the next 3 weeks...
Seriously I don't expect much positive to come from these last two games from a decimated team and I would bet against any epiphany.
Still, that was good post.
WSS
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LOL. Take a breath jiggins. I needed warm milk and a nap 3/4 through that.
Bowe/Pryor may want to show KC/Oak, Cinn how wrong they were for kicking such gifted talented productive WRs to the curb......hiccup hiccup.
Not a Manziel fan but to be fair he doesn't have alot to work with.
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time to see what the JV squad's got.
like the waning last minutes of a college basketball blowout............let everyone play.
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