Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I remember very specifically when I believe the concussion happened. A defender hit Manziel from the side and their helmets banged together very hard. On the replay, I remember thinking how lucky Manziel was that he wasn't concussed. I'm willing to bet that's when it occurred.
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Doesn't sound simple at all and I guess I don't understand your point. Seems to me the team Dr could find evidence of a sprain. Seems like the same Dr could ask a few questions or even pull out a flashlight and check the eyes.
I guess if anybody didn't want a player to play you can tell the team Dr you were a little worried since his speech seemed a little slurred. Could you check that out, doc?
That seems easier to me than the coach telling the doctor this guy's got a pulled muscle and the player saying I feel fine.
But most importantly, what are we arguing about?
WSS
Doesn't sound simple at all and I guess I don't understand your point. Seems to me the team Dr could find evidence of a sprain. Seems like the same Dr could ask a few questions or even pull out a flashlight and check the eyes.
I guess if anybody didn't want a player to play you can tell the team Dr you were a little worried since his speech seemed a little slurred. Could you check that out, doc?
That seems easier to me than the coach telling the doctor this guy's got a pulled muscle and the player saying I feel fine.
But most importantly, what are we arguing about?
WSS
I didnt know we were arguing......
I just posted the protocol, cause people were implying there might be a conspiracy here and protocol would pretty much eliminate that possibility....
And then you questioned it.....so, Id ask YOU what your argument is...
Look....team doctors work for the team, so you can probably get them to do or say whatever.....and they aren;t gonna check a player unless they are asked to....
But.....with concussions....team doctors have no say and are NOT involved....thats my point....you cant FAKE a concussion, unless it's the player trying to fool the league doctors.....
But you DEFINITELY can fake sprains and strains....just say your hamstring is tight or hurts....and KABLAMMO!!!,...instant injury that no one is gonna check....
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Tell you what, call me when the rest of the team blocks tackles and runs the ball.
Even your boy Hoyer looked OK on the occasions they did that. At least once in awhile.
Again with the argument shift?
My boy, along with McC and Davis, look like NFL QBs. It's easy to see... not slight.
No argument shift whatsoever.Again with the argument shift?
My boy, along with McC and Davis, look like NFL QBs. It's easy to see... not slight.
A hot dog quarterback can't make a shitty team a winner. But a great team can make a shitty quarterback a star. And speaking of who looks like what does Mike Pettine look like an NFL head coach to you?
WSS
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For the record I'd say he [coach] does not but I'd be willing to give him another year to see if continuity and experience can improve upon that.
WSS
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Tell you what, call me when the rest of the team blocks tackles and runs the ball.
Pretty sure all those things happened last week.....
Strong running game?.....check........Big Defensive stops?......check......No dropped passes?.......check.....Solid O line play?.....check........Solid QB play?.......nope
And yes he had a bad game. No doubt. Wasn't throwing the ball well. Did add 100 yards to the rushing game.Pretty sure all those things happened last week.....
Strong running game?.....check........Big Defensive stops?......check......No dropped passes?.......check.....Solid O line play?.....check........Solid QB play?.......nope
I'm not making excuses for a bad performance, just saying that people have bad performances. You learn by playing.
On the other hand threw for a shitload of yards against the Pittsburgh squealers.
WSS
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Here's how my mind has changed for what it's worth. When we drafted Johnny I expected great things. I was disappointed when the first season didn't deliver great things and I worried that he might not be able to play in the NFL. This season I have changed my mind and believe that he can play and play well with the proper support.
I don't know how much evidence we'll be able to glean from the next two games with terrible defensive backs, no starting guards, which I believe are imperative to success, and with the likes of Dwayne Bowe and Terrelle Pryor to throw to.
Hopefully Mike Pettine prove me wrong and Johnny proves the haters wrong and next season is a pleasant surprise.
WSS
fucking trent dilfer won a superbowl with the proper support, so anything is possible that is if we get the support we need...
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But on the field and in practice/preparation all his teammates and coaches are pleased with the changes and leadership in the huddle.
Ag,
That is strictly a comparative statement to the 2014 JM you want Mud revise as they are "the initial things he brought last year".
You can't have it both ways.
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On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
My question is this: How can guys come in on Wednesday and say they have a concussion? I mean, a blow to the head is a blow to the head....why would it take so long to diagnose?
And....have the plays where these concussions occurred been identified?
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On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
My question is this: How can guys come in on Wednesday and say they have a concussion? I mean, a blow to the head is a blow to the head....why would it take so long to diagnose?
And....have the plays where these concussions occurred been identified?
My question is this:
1) How can guys come in on Wednesday and say they have a concussion?
2) I mean, a blow to the head is a blow to the head....why would it take so long to diagnose?
3) And....have the plays where these concussions occurred been identified?
1) I would guess that they just walk in and report that their head hurts or they are having symptoms....
2) During a game, if a player receives a mjor blow to the head, there are league spotters who have the authority to conduct a sideline check....this happens often.....but not always........Sometimes a player feels fine and no one notices the hit, so it goes undiagnosed, unless the player says something.....
3) I have no clue...but doubt that its a critical thing to know....if he has a concussion, he has a concussion.....and thats all that really matters, right?>...
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My question is this:
1) How can guys come in on Wednesday and say they have a concussion?
2) I mean, a blow to the head is a blow to the head....why would it take so long to diagnose?
3) And....have the plays where these concussions occurred been identified?
1) I would guess that they just walk in and report that their head hurts or they are having symptoms....
2) During a game, if a player receives a mjor blow to the head, there are league spotters who have the authority to conduct a sideline check....this happens often.....but not always........Sometimes a player feels fine and no one notices the hit, so it goes undiagnosed, unless the player says something.....
3) I have no clue...but doubt that its a critical thing to know....if he has a concussion, he has a concussion.....and thats all that really matters, right?>...
1) I would guess that they just walk in and report that their head hurts or they are having symptoms....
2) During a game, if a player receives a mjor blow to the head, there are league spotters who have the authority to conduct a sideline check....this happens often.....but not always........Sometimes a player feels fine and no one notices the hit, so it goes undiagnosed, unless the player says something.....
3) I have no clue...but doubt that its a critical thing to know....if he has a concussion, he has a concussion.....and thats all that really matters, right?>...
Well, on the last point, it just seems that Johnny did fine....sort of...in the latter part of the game. Nothing affected him there.
And what is the issue about saying right now that he is out for Sunday.
Wouldn't it be better to wait and see. There are still 3 days between now and then. How cant they tell right now that he wouldn't be capable of playing Sunday?
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1) I would guess that they just walk in and report that their head hurts or they are having symptoms....
2) During a game, if a player receives a mjor blow to the head, there are league spotters who have the authority to conduct a sideline check....this happens often.....but not always........Sometimes a player feels fine and no one notices the hit, so it goes undiagnosed, unless the player says something.....
3) I have no clue...but doubt that its a critical thing to know....if he has a concussion, he has a concussion.....and thats all that really matters, right?>...
Well, on the last point, it just seems that Johnny did fine....sort of...in the latter part of the game. Nothing affected him there.
And what is the issue about saying right now that he is out for Sunday.
Wouldn't it be better to wait and see. There are still 3 days between now and then. How cant they tell right now that he wouldn't be capable of playing Sunday?
And what is the issue about saying right now that he is out for Sunday..........Wouldn't it be better to wait and see. ........... How cant they tell right now that he wouldn't be capable of playing Sunday?
I think it just boils down to practicing for the game.....and if Johnny cant practice, then he wont be prepared......
Maybe, if he recovers today or something, they could get him some reps....otherwise im guessing they'd rather just go with the guy who practiced all week.....
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On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
My question is this: How can guys come in on Wednesday and say they have a concussion? I mean, a blow to the head is a blow to the head....why would it take so long to diagnose?
And....have the plays where these concussions occurred been identified?
My question is this: How can guys come in on Wednesday and say they have a concussion? I mean, a blow to the head is a blow to the head....why would it take so long to diagnose?
And....have the plays where these concussions occurred been identified?
Adrenalin can play a role the day of the injury. I've seen NFL players pop up after a big hit and shake their head and continue to play. The "head shake" should be an unmissable red flag, yet it does not seem to be.
As for the diagnosis "delay"... Some symptoms can be delayed for days. My money here is on light sensitivity showing up.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/concussion/basics/symptoms/con-20019272
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
and another important point...or change.....is that players are now educated on concussions, the symptoms and the consequences....
So...
1) They recognize the symptoms now....
2) They have recourse and a direction(protocol) if they experience the symptoms...(before?..not so much)...
3) They better understand the damage their brain is taking....
So....while old school players did whatever they had to do to play.....todays players are a little more educated(and smarter?) now that we've had a few Mike Websters and Junior Seaus....
Chris Borland anyone????.....perfect example of a hard nosed player quitting just because he loves his brain more than football or $$$$......and the education he received on concussions probably had a lot to do with this choice...
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Kinda hard to fake much of any injury now. Look up what an MRI shows. Hamstring, sprain or strain, it shows all. Concussion?, Kinda hard to fake that now too. 21st century guys.
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Kinda hard to fake much of any injury now. Look up what an MRI shows. Hamstring, sprain or strain, it shows all. Concussion?, Kinda hard to fake that now too. 21st century guys.
Kinda hard to fake much of any injury now. Look up what an MRI shows. Hamstring, sprain or strain, it shows all.
My only point is that there is no protocol to check strains and sprains.....if team wants to keep a guy out, they can simply say he pulled a hamstring and no one will question it....or call for an MRI......
Now....if a player says he's hurt, then maybe the team can or will check that out....but not the league.....
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I will say this in fairness to Manziel. The suspension of the WR, the loss of TE Jordan Cameron, and the seeming failure to invest adequately in the skill positions would have a negative effect on any young QB. If you look at the great QBs over the decades, you will invariably see those teams invest heavily in skill positions after acquiring the franchise signal caller. Pittsburgh followed the Bradshaw drafting with Franco Harris and Lynn Swann in the first rounds. Aikman was followed in subsequent drafts by Emmitt Smith, Alvin Harper, Jimmy Smith, and Kevin Williams. Peyton Manning was drafted in the Colts by 1998. The Colts provided him with Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. The Steelers followed the Roethlisberger draft with Heath Miller, Santonio Holmes, and Rashad Mendenhall. Luck was given Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and TY Hilton in the same draft, and Donte Moncrief and Phillip Dorsett in later drafts. The Raiders gave Carr Amari Cooper the next year. I think if there is going to be any hope of Manziel developing into the QB Browns fans hope, you have to give him the tools around him to succeed.
But he has to do his part.
I agree about skill position players, but in fairness, we never skipped a beat at TE. Cameron was replaced by Barnidge, who has played better, and has stayed healthier.
And McCown and Hoyer had the same weapons as Johnny.
In the 7 games where McCown took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 21.8 points per game and 290.1 passing yards per game.
In the 7 games where Manziel took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 15.3 points per game and 195.5 passing yards per game.
But, since the defense had its two best games of the year with Johnny under center, and held the lowly Titans to 14 and the lowly 49ers to 10 ... Johnny was better.
Our third best defensive game was holding the Chiefs to 17, but our QB was 13-32 in that game.
We gave up 24 or more points in all of McCowns starts ... but I'm sure that was his fault. Johnny "inspired" the defense.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I agree about skill position players, but in fairness, we never skipped a beat at TE. Cameron was replaced by Barnidge, who has played better, and has stayed healthier.
And McCown and Hoyer had the same weapons as Johnny.
In the 7 games where McCown took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 21.8 points per game and 290.1 passing yards per game.
In the 7 games where Manziel took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 15.3 points per game and 195.5 passing yards per game.
But, since the defense had its two best games of the year with Johnny under center, and held the lowly Titans to 14 and the lowly 49ers to 10 ... Johnny was better.
Our third best defensive game was holding the Chiefs to 17, but our QB was 13-32 in that game.
We gave up 24 or more points in all of McCowns starts ... but I'm sure that was his fault. Johnny "inspired" the defense.
Zombo
I stand corrected about the TE position, but the overall analysis remains unchanged. If ANY QB is to succeed in Cleveland, he'll need more help.
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Devils advocate here.....
.....Assuming Gordon comes back next year(which Im feeling is gonna happen)....
He's the #1 WR....for sure.....
Benji is #2 WR....for sure.....
Hawkins is likely the #3 or slot guy(and one of the best, at that).....
And Barnidge is your TE......
And Duke is your HB.....
The only place I truly see a deep need for "skill player upgrades" are at QB.....and maybe RB with Crowell.....
So....assuming the above.....where do the "new skill players" go.....or who do they replace and why?
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Devils advocate here.....
.....Assuming Gordon comes back next year(which Im feeling is gonna happen)....
He's the #1 WR....for sure.....
Benji is #2 WR....for sure.....
Hawkins is likely the #3 or slot guy(and one of the best, at that).....
And Barnidge is your TE......
And Duke is your HB.....
The only place I truly see a deep need for "skill player upgrades" are at QB.....and maybe RB with Crowell.....
So....assuming the above.....where do the "new skill players" go.....or who do they replace and why?
Devils advocate here.....
.....Assuming Gordon comes back next year(which Im feeling is gonna happen)....
He's the #1 WR....for sure.....
Benji is #2 WR....for sure.....
Hawkins is likely the #3 or slot guy(and one of the best, at that).....
And Barnidge is your TE......
And Duke is your HB.....
The only place I truly see a deep need for "skill player upgrades" are at QB.....and maybe RB with Crowell.....
So....assuming the above.....where do the "new skill players" go.....or who do they replace and why?
Again, I said it before......whatever personnell guy we have coming in here (and I don't think it will be Ray Farmer).....it would not surprise me if a WR and a RB were taken fairly high.
I mean....we have to make up for Farmer's fuckups with Terence West and Vince Mayle.
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So....you dont think Duke is a suitable(or even excellent) follow up to West?.....
And....assuming he returns.....would Josh Gordon not be a quality #1 in place of Mayle?
So....you dont think Duke is a suitable(or even excellent) follow up to West?.....
And....assuming he returns.....would Josh Gordon not be a quality #1 in place of Mayle?
Sure.....both would be right. I am just saying, don't be surprised if our next GM goes Ghoolie on us and wants more weaponry at the offensive skill positions.
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