Browns skill players....best ever?
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Well....with all this so called talent.....why couldn't they score more points?
And beyond that....even with this being the case.....it cannot help shore up the epic poor defense that was played this year.
Yes....this is receiving only(to the Duke question).....
...and has zero to do with the Defense.....and everything to do with people saying we dont have weapons for our QB's.....
Not really. It seems that the bad teams in the 2010s likely put up bigger offensive numbers than the really good teams in past decades.
I mean.....figure this: Terry Bradshaw had about a 1:1 TD pass to Int. ratio. Do you think any QB this day and age could keep his job doing that? Yet he won 4 titles.
That is just the way the game is now.
I dont care about Terry Bradshaw(who I think was average, at best).....this is about the Browns....
And our offensive #'s are the same now as they were in the 80's and 90's(with Bernie)......same overall yards...same passing yards....same rushing yards....etc....
Yes....this is receiving only(to the Duke question).....
...and has zero to do with the Defense.....and everything to do with people saying we dont have weapons for our QB's.....
I dont care about Terry Bradshaw(who I think was average, at best).....this is about the Browns....
Do you just want to ignore the fact that the game has vastly changed since then?
And our offensive #'s are the same now as they were in the 80's and 90's(with Bernie)......same overall yards...same passing yards....same rushing yards....etc....
Perhaps so....as with those offensive numbers in the 80s/90s the Browns had one of the top 5 offenses in the league......but now, with those same numbers, the Browns have a offense that ranks in the lower 20s.
So you have to take the way the game is played into account.
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Yes....this is receiving only(to the Duke question).....
...and has zero to do with the Defense.....and everything to do with people saying we dont have weapons for our QB's.....
I dont care about Terry Bradshaw(who I think was average, at best).....this is about the Browns....
Do you just want to ignore the fact that the game has vastly changed since then?
And our offensive #'s are the same now as they were in the 80's and 90's(with Bernie)......same overall yards...same passing yards....same rushing yards....etc....
Perhaps so....as with those offensive numbers in the 80s/90s the Browns had one of the top 5 offenses in the league......but now, with those same numbers, the Browns have a offense that ranks in the lower 20s.
So you have to take the way the game is played into account.
Yes....this is receiving only(to the Duke question).....
...and has zero to do with the Defense.....and everything to do with people saying we dont have weapons for our QB's.....
I dont care about Terry Bradshaw(who I think was average, at best).....this is about the Browns....
Do you just want to ignore the fact that the game has vastly changed since then?
And our offensive #'s are the same now as they were in the 80's and 90's(with Bernie)......same overall yards...same passing yards....same rushing yards....etc....
Perhaps so....as with those offensive numbers in the 80s/90s the Browns had one of the top 5 offenses in the league......but now, with those same numbers, the Browns have a offense that ranks in the lower 20s.
So you have to take the way the game is played into account.
No....Im not ignoring it......what Im doing is pointing out that we have guys capable of making LOTS of catches and LOTS of yards.....and, when we had "one of the best offenses in the league" (as you put it)....we did it with fairly average skill guys like Brian Brennan, Reggie Langhorne, Reggie Rucker, Ernest Byner, etc.....
And I think the guys we have now can do the things that those guys did......
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I luv ya Mud, you're like a fight trainer........ I get my ass kicked for 3 minutes, stumble over to the corner and there you are, telling me "I got this, great round son!"
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Yes....this is receiving only(to the Duke question).....
...and has zero to do with the Defense.....and everything to do with people saying we dont have weapons for our QB's.....
I dont care about Terry Bradshaw(who I think was average, at best).....this is about the Browns....
Do you just want to ignore the fact that the game has vastly changed since then?
And our offensive #'s are the same now as they were in the 80's and 90's(with Bernie)......same overall yards...same passing yards....same rushing yards....etc....
Perhaps so....as with those offensive numbers in the 80s/90s the Browns had one of the top 5 offenses in the league......but now, with those same numbers, the Browns have a offense that ranks in the lower 20s.
So you have to take the way the game is played into account.
No....Im not ignoring it......what Im doing is pointing out that we have guys capable of making LOTS of catches and LOTS of yards.....and, when we had "one of the best offenses in the league" (as you put it)....we did it with fairly average skill guys like Brian Brennan, Reggie Langhorne, Reggie Rucker, Ernest Byner, etc.....
And I think the guys we have now can do the things that those guys did......
No....Im not ignoring it......what Im doing is pointing out that we have guys capable of making LOTS of catches and LOTS of yards.....and, when we had "one of the best offenses in the league" (as you put it)....we did it with fairly average skill guys like Brian Brennan, Reggie Langhorne, Reggie Rucker, Ernest Byner, etc.....
And I think the guys we have now can do the things that those guys did......
Yea....but they had Bernie Kosar throwing to them.
Do you think we have a QB as good as Bernie Kosar on this team?
I mean.....if you look at the two teams, right now the Browns probably have a better receiving corps than the Patriots.
But they have Tom Brady. What do you think Tom Brady could do with our bunch?
I guess, the thing you point out is: Quarterbacks matter.
Fair to say?
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Not to mention they signed former 1000 yard receivers in Hartline and Bowe ?
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Yes....very fair to say.....And my point exactly...
Been hearing our QB's aren't getting a fair shake because they have no weapons.....
And I disagree......(and above are the stats to support that notion).....
Yes....very fair to say.....And my point exactly...
Been hearing our QB's aren't getting a fair shake because they have no weapons.....
And I disagree......(and above are the stats to support that notion).....
Well, lets put it this way: I don't think anyone who is an "expert" at this is going to rate our offensive skill players other than QB as anywhere other than very low on the pecking order around the league.
But, yes, with the right triggerman....I do think these guys are serviceable.
But that is not to say that I don't think they need help.
It would NOT surprise me at all to see the Browns draft WR and RB help high in the next draft.
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Yes....very fair to say.....And my point exactly...
Been hearing our QB's aren't getting a fair shake because they have no weapons.....
And I disagree......(and above are the stats to support that notion).....
Well, lets put it this way: I don't think anyone who is an "expert" at this is going to rate our offensive skill players other than QB as anywhere other than very low on the pecking order around the league.
But, yes, with the right triggerman....I do think these guys are serviceable.
But that is not to say that I don't think they need help.
It would NOT surprise me at all to see the Browns draft WR and RB help high in the next draft.
Well, lets put it this way: I don't think anyone who is an "expert" at this is going to rate our offensive skill players other than QB as anywhere other than very low on the pecking order around the league.
But, yes, with the right triggerman....I do think these guys are serviceable.
But that is not to say that I don't think they need help.
It would NOT surprise me at all to see the Browns draft WR and RB help high in the next draft.
Im not so sure about that myself......
Based on talent alone, Id put Josh Gordon up there with any receiver in the league....very much a legit #1 receiver(and the difference maker we are missing)
Benji would rate as good as anybody in the league as a #2......right?....he's top 25 right now....so, as a #2, he'd be right at the top
Barnidge is rated 4th in the league at TE.....in catches and yards.....so, how could you call him "low in the pecking order"??
Duke is rated #4 in the league for catches and yards too.........so another skill player at the top.....
So.....dont know why our guys shouldnt be considered top guys....they are all ranked with the top guys......and they are doing it on a disfunctional team with a messed up QB situation and no running game.....
So...call it what you want Gip.....all these guys have been as good as anyone else.....and collectively, there are very few teams with a WR, RB and TE all ranked at the top as receivers.....and add Josh Gordon to that mix and you want to call them "serviceable"...low on the pecking order?.....I dont get how that is.....
Id say.....so far....our "skill position" weakness is at QB and RB.....because I think with a running game and an EVEN better QB, it only stands to reason these guys would do even better.....
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I luv ya Mud, you're like a fight trainer........ I get my ass kicked for 3 minutes, stumble over to the corner and there you are, telling me "I got this, great round son!"
Only real provisos I see, mud, are that:
- successful run games take plays away from pass attacks. Most extreme example was Bernie having a pair of 1000-yd RBs in the same season.
- % of time playing from behind vs. with the lead. Passing yards come easier in garbage time with the lead out of reach.
I luv ya Mud, you're like a fight trainer........ I get my ass kicked for 3 minutes, stumble over to the corner and there you are, telling me "I got this, great round son!"
lol.....
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I suppose you should ask yourself, is best ever good enough? And far will that get ya?
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I luv ya Mud, you're like a fight trainer........ I get my ass kicked for 3 minutes, stumble over to the corner and there you are, telling me "I got this, great round son!"
I luv ya Mud, you're like a fight trainer........ I get my ass kicked for 3 minutes, stumble over to the corner and there you are, telling me "I got this, great round son!"
HA!.....the only way to win is to believe you can.....
There is "some" good in this team......sprinkled about....
Only real provisos I see, mud, are that:
- successful run games take plays away from pass attacks. Most extreme example was Bernie having a pair of 1000-yd RBs in the same season.
- % of time playing from behind vs. with the lead. Passing yards come easier in garbage time with the lead out of reach.
Both fair points with merit.....
And if we get 2 thousand yard rushers(uber rare) then Im sure the receivers will have lower numbers......Bernies top receivers that year had 700 and 500 yards....(Newsome & Brennan, btw)
The next season..Mack & Byner combined for about 900 yds and the receivers totals gained incrementally.....still no big numbers guys, as Bernie spread it around to lots of receivers......
Again.....my point is that the guys we have "catching the ball" are good enough if we get....
1) Good blocking and protection from the O line
2) Consistent(or improved) production from the running game
3) A quarterback who can get the ball out quickly and accurately
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Well, lets put it this way: I don't think anyone who is an "expert" at this is going to rate our offensive skill players other than QB as anywhere other than very low on the pecking order around the league.
But, yes, with the right triggerman....I do think these guys are serviceable.
But that is not to say that I don't think they need help.
It would NOT surprise me at all to see the Browns draft WR and RB help high in the next draft.
Im not so sure about that myself......
Based on talent alone, Id put Josh Gordon up there with any receiver in the league....very much a legit #1 receiver(and the difference maker we are missing)
Benji would rate as good as anybody in the league as a #2......right?....he's top 25 right now....so, as a #2, he'd be right at the top
Barnidge is rated 4th in the league at TE.....in catches and yards.....so, how could you call him "low in the pecking order"??
Duke is rated #4 in the league for catches and yards too.........so another skill player at the top.....
So.....dont know why our guys shouldnt be considered top guys....they are all ranked with the top guys......and they are doing it on a disfunctional team with a messed up QB situation and no running game.....
So...call it what you want Gip.....all these guys have been as good as anyone else.....and collectively, there are very few teams with a WR, RB and TE all ranked at the top as receivers.....and add Josh Gordon to that mix and you want to call them "serviceable"...low on the pecking order?.....I dont get how that is.....
Id say.....so far....our "skill position" weakness is at QB and RB.....because I think with a running game and an EVEN better QB, it only stands to reason these guys would do even better.....
Im not so sure about that myself......
Based on talent alone, Id put Josh Gordon up there with any receiver in the league....very much a legit #1 receiver(and the difference maker we are missing)
Benji would rate as good as anybody in the league as a #2......right?....he's top 25 right now....so, as a #2, he'd be right at the top
Barnidge is rated 4th in the league at TE.....in catches and yards.....so, how could you call him "low in the pecking order"??
Duke is rated #4 in the league for catches and yards too.........so another skill player at the top.....
So.....dont know why our guys shouldnt be considered top guys....they are all ranked with the top guys......and they are doing it on a disfunctional team with a messed up QB situation and no running game.....
So...call it what you want Gip.....all these guys have been as good as anyone else.....and collectively, there are very few teams with a WR, RB and TE all ranked at the top as receivers.....and add Josh Gordon to that mix and you want to call them "serviceable"...low on the pecking order?.....I dont get how that is.....
Id say.....so far....our "skill position" weakness is at QB and RB.....because I think with a running game and an EVEN better QB, it only stands to reason these guys would do even better.....
Well, of course your whole contention hinges on Josh Gordon being the Josh Gordon of a couple of years ago.
That is a big big IF. If he were the 1600 yards a year guy....you may be on to something. As it stands, without him (and I don't rely on him) yes, I think our skill players would be rated serviceable at best.
That's a big dominoe that would have to fall for everything to line up right.
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Im not so sure about that myself......
Based on talent alone, Id put Josh Gordon up there with any receiver in the league....very much a legit #1 receiver(and the difference maker we are missing)
Benji would rate as good as anybody in the league as a #2......right?....he's top 25 right now....so, as a #2, he'd be right at the top
Barnidge is rated 4th in the league at TE.....in catches and yards.....so, how could you call him "low in the pecking order"??
Duke is rated #4 in the league for catches and yards too.........so another skill player at the top.....
So.....dont know why our guys shouldnt be considered top guys....they are all ranked with the top guys......and they are doing it on a disfunctional team with a messed up QB situation and no running game.....
So...call it what you want Gip.....all these guys have been as good as anyone else.....and collectively, there are very few teams with a WR, RB and TE all ranked at the top as receivers.....and add Josh Gordon to that mix and you want to call them "serviceable"...low on the pecking order?.....I dont get how that is.....
Id say.....so far....our "skill position" weakness is at QB and RB.....because I think with a running game and an EVEN better QB, it only stands to reason these guys would do even better.....
Well, of course your whole contention hinges on Josh Gordon being the Josh Gordon of a couple of years ago.
That is a big big IF. If he were the 1600 yards a year guy....you may be on to something. As it stands, without him (and I don't rely on him) yes, I think our skill players would be rated serviceable at best.
That's a big dominoe that would have to fall for everything to line up right.
Well, of course your whole contention hinges on Josh Gordon...
Id consider a solid running back.....but not early.....
I think Joshes chances of returning and being great are just as good, and actually better, than some unknown rookie coming in and taking over at the #1 spotand we have a boat load of #2 -#3 types already) ....so, if your pick isnt a #1, he's a wasted pick.....
Hey....anything can happen with him.....but I wouldnt spend a high pick on a WR when I have a guy like Gordon poised to return and several other guys who have just proven they can do it at a high level....
especially with so many other serious needs....especially on D.....
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Well, of course your whole contention hinges on Josh Gordon...
Id consider a solid running back.....but not early.....
I think Joshes chances of returning and being great are just as good, and actually better, than some unknown rookie coming in and taking over at the #1 spotand we have a boat load of #2 -#3 types already) ....so, if your pick isnt a #1, he's a wasted pick.....
Hey....anything can happen with him.....but I wouldnt spend a high pick on a WR when I have a guy like Gordon poised to return and several other guys who have just proven they can do it at a high level....
especially with so many other serious needs....especially on D.....
Id consider a solid running back.....but not early.....
I think Joshes chances of returning and being great are just as good, and actually better, than some unknown rookie coming in and taking over at the #1 spotand we have a boat load of #2 -#3 types already) ....so, if your pick isnt a #1, he's a wasted pick.....
Well, that is fair to say. But extremism in defense of patriotism is no vice......(Barry Goldwater). If we had Josh and another #1 type or top, top #2...ain't nothing wrong with that.
Hey....anything can happen with him.....but I wouldnt spend a high pick on a WR when I have a guy like Gordon poised to return and several other guys who have just proven they can do it at a high level....
I might still do it.
especially with so many other serious needs....especially on D.....
but...of course this is clearly a valid point. Lets say Bosa.....but, if Bosa is taken with the #1 pick by the Tits...then who?
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I luv ya Mud, you're like a fight trainer........ I get my ass kicked for 3 minutes, stumble over to the corner and there you are, telling me "I got this, great round son!"
HA!.....the only way to win is to believe you can.....
There is "some" good in this team......sprinkled about....
Only real provisos I see, mud, are that:
- successful run games take plays away from pass attacks. Most extreme example was Bernie having a pair of 1000-yd RBs in the same season.
- % of time playing from behind vs. with the lead. Passing yards come easier in garbage time with the lead out of reach.
Both fair points with merit.....
And if we get 2 thousand yard rushers(uber rare) then Im sure the receivers will have lower numbers......Bernies top receivers that year had 700 and 500 yards....(Newsome & Brennan, btw)
The next season..Mack & Byner combined for about 900 yds and the receivers totals gained incrementally.....still no big numbers guys, as Bernie spread it around to lots of receivers......
Again.....my point is that the guys we have "catching the ball" are good enough if we get....
1) Good blocking and protection from the O line
2) Consistent(or improved) production from the running game
3) A quarterback who can get the ball out quickly and accurately
HA!.....the only way to win is to believe you can.....
There is "some" good in this team......sprinkled about....
Agree. That's why it's real hard to see this as a 3-12 team.
The offense has been decent between the 20s, but tends to bog down in the red zone. If Josh Gordon can actually stay clean, come back and be close to his rookie year, the O improves immensely. It certainly wouldn't hurt to get another larger WR target in the draft.
Our RBs are serviceable, I wouldn't draft one at all before the 6th round.
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So if we have all these good players and we are still 3-12, what does that say about the coaches?
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
Dunno... I'm still trying to understand the whole prom thing...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
what Prom thing?
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So if we have all these good players and we are still 3-12, what does that say about the coaches?
Always shocks me how so many people can miss a simple point......and then make it something else all together....
VesnaKociper said:
Winslow better than Ozzie? Don't be idiotic.
Example #1........what's idiotic, is that you think I said that..........(extra idiotic, actually)
So if we have all these good players and we are still 3-12, what does that say about the coaches?
It tells me they are extracting some pretty good performances from some historically average players on a team with no running game, no quarterback and no defense....
Dunno... I'm still trying to understand the whole prom thing...
Yeah....me too.....Ive determined it doesnt make sense....
VesnaKociper said:
Let me type slow. When you celebrate statistics of today's game and suggest that they are indicative that today's players are terriffic...
You've missed every point......
So.....for example.......if "todays" tight end is ranked #4 in the league.....does that not mean he's at the top of "todays" players?....
And.....if you have 4 players ranked somewhere near the top of "todays players", does that not mean you have 4 players who can compete at a high level against "todays players"?????
And....as an EXAMPLE...... if our team in 1986 had 2 skill players ranked at the top of the league and our team in 2015 had 5 players ranked at the top of the league....would it not stand to reason that we currently have more "top players" now, than we did then?......
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