How To Get A Qb
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I guess in a way I would agree with Gipper but then Tour is a guy who knows his shit and if he thinks Goff is the third best in 5 or 10 years I at least consider it. Who is a guy who knows his shit and if he thinks Goff is the third best in 5 or 10 years I at least consider it.
Aw shucks... and thanks, but give due credit to bb who was on Goff first here.
Still working my way through the QB candidates (with Wentz next in the queue), but so far Goff is the guy. I see nothing below average in him. Arm has a 55-yard-ish range. Everything else is above average with his head leading the way. I see football smarts easily a match for Winston with no signs of the baggage. Leadership? Last big unknown...
So far Lynch is a distant 2nd. Just the opposite results from Goff. Big advantages in all the throwing measures, but his head is well short of where a Pro QB needs to be.
Prescott is still my 2015 value, dark-horse, leader in the clubhouse. If I wanted this draft's best chance to emerge as a Russell Wilson clone...
Aw shucks... and thanks, but give due credit to bb who was on Goff first here.
Still working my way through the QB candidates (with Wentz next in the queue), but so far Goff is the guy. I see nothing below average in him. Arm has a 55-yard-ish range. Everything else is above average with his head leading the way. I see football smarts easily a match for Winston with no signs of the baggage. Leadership? Last big unknown...
So far Lynch is a distant 2nd. Just the opposite results from Goff. Big advantages in all the throwing measures, but his head is well short of where a Pro QB needs to be.
Prescott is still my 2015 value, dark-horse, leader in the clubhouse. If I wanted this draft's best chance to emerge as a Russell Wilson clone...
No doubt if Goff is great BB comes out smelling like a rose, he just has a little bit of, you know, PoG.
Russell Wilson clone?
So I can expect the guys who have been screaming midget dwarf elf can't see over the line way too small to be an NFL quarterback to STFU?
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WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Goff is average/above average in the physical aspects (like arm strength, athleticism).
He's pretty great in other categories (like accuracy, composure, release)
I think he's best in class in terms of footwork, pocket composure, accuracy, best internal clock, etc.
He's rated as a top 10 prospect on pretty much everybody's big board with good reason, it's not a matter of overvaluing him because he's a QB.
He's rated as a top 10 prospect on pretty much everybody's big board with good reason, it's not a matter of overvaluing him because he's a QB.
Plus I think folks here are implying that the top ten is not a grouping, but an ordered list. Draft boards don't work that way. Player evaluations are not that precise.
Draft is about grouping players whose potential you see at similar levels. Then you can let need dictate which of the multiple choices you have at any given pick dictate the player you choose.
That is not to say that there can't be a "super-group" of elite prospects in a draft. There almost always is, but its size varies widely from 2013's arguable zero to 2014's one or two to 2015's bumper crop.
Not sure about 2016's size yet...
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Couple of points tour - on Goff's leadership, the team went from 1-11 before he joined, to 8-5 this year. Can't be certain, but I'm guessing there's at least decent leadership there.
On Prescott, I've seen nothing to endear me to him. He seems inaccurate and to be in a system that is *heavy* on designed run plays, so will have taken a beating. He won't be in the NFL, so teams won't fear his running ability as much, and he'll have to beat them with his arm. Mechanics go to shit outside the pocket - on simple rollouts jumps as he throws (like JFF but without the height excuse). In the pocket they're not great, steps in to the throw but back foot often comes off the ground.
Maybe I'm missing something? I'm watching the LSU game right now and to open the game, it's been completion, incompletion (ball thrown slightly behind but should have been caught), designed run, designed run/RO keep, sack, sack, completion. What should I look for as positive traits? Because right now I'm seeing a small Cardale Jones, and I'm not a fan of big Cardale Jones.
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Aw shucks... and thanks, but give due credit to bb who was on Goff first here.
Still working my way through the QB candidates (with Wentz next in the queue), but so far Goff is the guy. I see nothing below average in him. Arm has a 55-yard-ish range. Everything else is above average with his head leading the way. I see football smarts easily a match for Winston with no signs of the baggage. Leadership? Last big unknown...
So far Lynch is a distant 2nd. Just the opposite results from Goff. Big advantages in all the throwing measures, but his head is well short of where a Pro QB needs to be.
Prescott is still my 2015 value, dark-horse, leader in the clubhouse. If I wanted this draft's best chance to emerge as a Russell Wilson clone...
No doubt if Goff is great BB comes out smelling like a rose, he just has a little bit of, you know, PoG.
Russell Wilson clone?
So I can expect the guys who have been screaming midget dwarf elf can't see over the line way too small to be an NFL quarterback to STFU?
@@
~
WSS
No doubt if Goff is great BB comes out smelling like a rose, he just has a little bit of, you know, PoG.
Russell Wilson clone?
So I can expect the guys who have been screaming midget dwarf elf can't see over the line way too small to be an NFL quarterback to STFU?
lol... well unless bb and PoG wear the same cologne I don't get a whiff of similarity.
As for Wilson... there are good midgets and there are bad midgets... and at 6'2, Dak is a tall midget. Regardless, as long as our midget is our midget, I make no guarantees.
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Couple of points tour - on Goff's leadership, the team went from 1-11 before he joined, to 8-5 this year. Can't be certain, but I'm guessing there's at least decent leadership there.
On Prescott, I've seen nothing to endear me to him. He seems inaccurate and to be in a system that is *heavy* on designed run plays, so will have taken a beating. He won't be in the NFL, so teams won't fear his running ability as much, and he'll have to beat them with his arm. Mechanics go to shit outside the pocket - on simple rollouts jumps as he throws (like JFF but without the height excuse). In the pocket they're not great, steps in to the throw but back foot often comes off the ground.
Maybe I'm missing something? I'm watching the LSU game right now and to open the game, it's been completion, incompletion (ball thrown slightly behind but should have been caught), designed run, designed run/RO keep, sack, sack, completion. What should I look for as positive traits? Because right now I'm seeing a small Cardale Jones, and I'm not a fan of big Cardale Jones.
Couple of points tour - on Goff's leadership, the team went from 1-11 before he joined, to 8-5 this year. Can't be certain, but I'm guessing there's at least decent leadership there.
On Prescott, I've seen nothing to endear me to him. He seems inaccurate and to be in a system that is *heavy* on designed run plays, so will have taken a beating. He won't be in the NFL, so teams won't fear his running ability as much, and he'll have to beat them with his arm. Mechanics go to shit outside the pocket - on simple rollouts jumps as he throws (like JFF but without the height excuse). In the pocket they're not great, steps in to the throw but back foot often comes off the ground.
Maybe I'm missing something? I'm watching the LSU game right now and to open the game, it's been completion, incompletion (ball thrown slightly behind but should have been caught), designed run, designed run/RO keep, sack, sack, completion. What should I look for as positive traits? Because right now I'm seeing a small Cardale Jones, and I'm not a fan of big Cardale Jones.
This was my take away as well but I was open to any info that might change my mind for sure.
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So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
No, and I'm not sure how you could make that leap. You're grasping at straws here just to prove a (very wrong) point.
No, and I'm not sure how you could make that leap. You're grasping at straws here just to prove a (very wrong) point.
I am going by what you said/quoted. There was no leap, merely a step.
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Couple of points tour - on Goff's leadership, the team went from 1-11 before he joined, to 8-5 this year. Can't be certain, but I'm guessing there's at least decent leadership there.
On Prescott, I've seen nothing to endear me to him. He seems inaccurate and to be in a system that is *heavy* on designed run plays, so will have taken a beating. He won't be in the NFL, so teams won't fear his running ability as much, and he'll have to beat them with his arm. Mechanics go to shit outside the pocket - on simple rollouts jumps as he throws (like JFF but without the height excuse). In the pocket they're not great, steps in to the throw but back foot often comes off the ground.
Maybe I'm missing something? I'm watching the LSU game right now and to open the game, it's been completion, incompletion (ball thrown slightly behind but should have been caught), designed run, designed run/RO keep, sack, sack, completion. What should I look for as positive traits? Because right now I'm seeing a small Cardale Jones, and I'm not a fan of big Cardale Jones.
Couple of points tour - on Goff's leadership, the team went from 1-11 before he joined, to 8-5 this year. Can't be certain, but I'm guessing there's at least decent leadership there.
On Prescott, I've seen nothing to endear me to him.
Maybe I'm missing something? I'm watching the LSU game right now...
Agree on Goff's leadership. Not a big question, but I've nothing but inferences that it's "OK". But even that leaves a great deal of range as to how much of an asset it is. From lightweight like Hoyer/Dalton to infectious like Winston to black-hole gravitas of Brady/Brees/Manning.
Prescott... he's a kid I've watched grow over three years, but you don't have to go back that far, just keep moving forward.
LSU was early 2015. IIRC you also should be noticing how mechanical he looks... very stiff in the pocket. This was new in 2016 and it actually regressed him some early in the season. As the year progresses you'll see this soften a little... stiff becomes "calm"... and his performance improve. Some of this is due to MSU Offense's growth, but a lot of it was Dak IMO... and a lot of Dak's growth looked to be between the ears.
I just have a feeling he will continue to grow at the next level making him a good value pick.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
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I understand your point and slightly agree, but it's not...entirely...true?
I THINK what you're trying to say is that a "college arm" gets you more in college but in the NFL, where the windows are tighter, it doesn't get you as much.
A 60 yard pass is a 60 yard pass, regardless of level. A 20 yard laser is a 20 yard laser, regardless of level. The arm strength doesn't change drastically over the course of a player's career, unless you're pulling a Manning.
What you're talking about is more of an arm strength + accuracy + timing thing - which is mostly exhibited on intermediate throws.
In college, a QB can get by with a (let's put this on a 1-10 scale, with 5 being average) 6 for an arm just because the timing doesn't have to be as precise. He can hang a 20 yard post a bit more because the safety isn't going to break on it as fast. He can put a little more air on a 15-and-out because the corner can't make it back to the ball.
Matt Ryan, IIRC, was never a strong armed QB - even in college. I seem to remember him drawing comparisons to an NFL version of Chad Pennington, actually. He was efficient in the short and intermediate game, and could drive the ball on certain throws, but he wasn't routinely slinging 45 yarders with relative ease. His yards per attempt in college were slightly low, only at around 7 YPA. Compare that to guys like Rodgers, Flacco, Goff, Luck, etc. who are in the 8-9 YPA range in college.
His arm strength hasn't changed, it's the windows that have changed. Luckily, Ryan is a cerebral QB with a fine-tuned internal clock, so the effect isn't felt as much. Which is how Goff is as well.
IMO, Goff's strongest aspect is his internal clock, he's routinely shown he's adept at knowing when to deliver the ball, when to get out of the pocket, etc.
All of this is a roundabout way of saying I agree that Goff's arm talent doesn't jump off the page. In truth, nothing about Goff jumps off the page. He's just above average at all aspects, and is a smart, cerebral guy with good instincts on top of that.
If you gave him a cannon arm, 4.5 speed, and the ability to shed tackles a la Roethlisberger...Goff would be a consensus generational player, probably. However, he's just a guy with mediocre strength, mediocre speed who takes hits like a quarterback.
So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
I hear this all the time from Browns fans. "No ones worth that high of a pick".....the result is settling for who is left over late in the 1st round. In the mean time other NFL teams have identified the QB they want and do what it takes to get them. Not the (previous i hope) Browns way of...." no ones worthy of a high first, lets chose from whats left over.So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
McCown is fragile (fact). To those not wanting a QB with the 2nd pick, what is your QB alternative because more likely than not, he will see action.
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Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
If you go back a few years, they also had people like Tajh Boyd going at the top of the first round before the season started, and Blake Bortles (in a different year) coming from nowhere to go 3rd to the Jags.
The most recent body of work is almost always the most important at that level.
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I hear this all the time from Browns fans. "No ones worth that high of a pick".....the result is settling for who is left over late in the 1st round. In the mean time other NFL teams have identified the QB they want and do what it takes to get them. Not the (previous i hope) Browns way of...." no ones worthy of a high first, lets chose from whats left over.So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
McCown is fragile (fact). To those not wanting a QB with the 2nd pick, what is your QB alternative because more likely than not, he will see action.
When you spend a #2 pick on a guy youre drafting for the next 10 years, not just next year. I dont think anyone plans on competing next year, so it doesnt matter whos takin snaps. We could keep McCown, Johnny, and still take a QB.I hear this all the time from Browns fans. "No ones worth that high of a pick".....the result is settling for who is left over late in the 1st round. In the mean time other NFL teams have identified the QB they want and do what it takes to get them. Not the (previous i hope) Browns way of...." no ones worthy of a high first, lets chose from whats left over.
McCown is fragile (fact). To those not wanting a QB with the 2nd pick, what is your QB alternative because more likely than not, he will see action.
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
He ain't no John Elway?
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
I think people have learned more about the importance of the other aspects of the QB game since Weeden came along
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Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
this is a quality post-- we don't know how goff/lynch/wentz will turn out as pros. If anyone says they do they are fos. Neither of these guys are the class of qb prospect(admittedly very few are) where there is some level of certainty that they will be very very good.
I will say I'm a little concerned that his arm and athleticism doesn't jump off the page at me. Because if it *doesn't* jump off the page in college, it's going to be several steps below that(meaning several steps below great) when translated to the nfl.
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I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
I guess, conversely....I would rather have taken Brandon Weeden in round 3 than in round 1.
Note: we are not nearly as forlorn about the Browns having taken Charlie Frye and Colt McCoy in the third round. We knew these were risks...and that the investment in them was not as dear as the investment of a 1st round pick.
So, we don't get Nicolette Sheridan in round 1, we take Daphne Zuniga. Not as hot, but cute nevertheless......more a "take home to Mom" kind of girl.
Frye and McCoy were more "take home to Mom" kind of QBs.
I mean....isn't it fair to say that we got more production out of our 3rd round pick than our 1st round picks?
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Here is the deal on that QB production.....using the PFR CA....which measures a players career production. These are these guys total career numbers, including with other team:
Couch: 30
Wynn: 2
Luke McC.: 7
Frye: 8
Quinn: 2
McCoy: 12
Weeden: 12
Johnny: 1
Just to give comparison, here are the numbers of some decidedly mediocre or below QBs:
Matt Cassell 45
Kyle Orton 41
Vince Young 33
Josh Freeman 38
Mark Sanchez 33
Tim Tebow 12
Sam Bradford 25
And compare to these guys: youngest to oldest:
Luck: 42
Wilson : 46
Newton 56
Dalton 43
Kaepernick 34
Rodgers 107
Rivers 114
Roeth. 99
Palmer 84
Brees 141
Brady 146
Peyton 176
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Im on board with the keep Johnny and surround him with better weapons crowd. Hes been a headache, but I think he can play on the field. We can draft another QB in the third round. Go Bosa or Jack at 2, take Henry or Elliot in the second.
Im on board with the keep Johnny and surround him with better weapons crowd. Hes been a headache, but I think he can play on the field. We can draft another QB in the third round. Go Bosa or Jack at 2, take Henry or Elliot in the second.
And the addition of Josh Gordon with an entire training camp and a quarterback that he likes to get in sync with? Fuggetabouttit.
WSS
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
Gip,
I have seen enough of your arguments to know you've dug your heels in now... but do you realize in all the time you've spent defending your position, you could have watched every cutdown from Goff's Senior year and formed your own opinion rather than mistakenly regurgitated others' opinions?
sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
Except that Hoyer's arm was 45-ish. McCown's is 55-ish and no one seemed to be complaining. Since the 55 you quoted was my estimate, now it has some context.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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