How To Get A Qb
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Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
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I understand your point and slightly agree, but it's not...entirely...true?
I THINK what you're trying to say is that a "college arm" gets you more in college but in the NFL, where the windows are tighter, it doesn't get you as much.
A 60 yard pass is a 60 yard pass, regardless of level. A 20 yard laser is a 20 yard laser, regardless of level. The arm strength doesn't change drastically over the course of a player's career, unless you're pulling a Manning.
What you're talking about is more of an arm strength + accuracy + timing thing - which is mostly exhibited on intermediate throws.
In college, a QB can get by with a (let's put this on a 1-10 scale, with 5 being average) 6 for an arm just because the timing doesn't have to be as precise. He can hang a 20 yard post a bit more because the safety isn't going to break on it as fast. He can put a little more air on a 15-and-out because the corner can't make it back to the ball.
Matt Ryan, IIRC, was never a strong armed QB - even in college. I seem to remember him drawing comparisons to an NFL version of Chad Pennington, actually. He was efficient in the short and intermediate game, and could drive the ball on certain throws, but he wasn't routinely slinging 45 yarders with relative ease. His yards per attempt in college were slightly low, only at around 7 YPA. Compare that to guys like Rodgers, Flacco, Goff, Luck, etc. who are in the 8-9 YPA range in college.
His arm strength hasn't changed, it's the windows that have changed. Luckily, Ryan is a cerebral QB with a fine-tuned internal clock, so the effect isn't felt as much. Which is how Goff is as well.
IMO, Goff's strongest aspect is his internal clock, he's routinely shown he's adept at knowing when to deliver the ball, when to get out of the pocket, etc.
All of this is a roundabout way of saying I agree that Goff's arm talent doesn't jump off the page. In truth, nothing about Goff jumps off the page. He's just above average at all aspects, and is a smart, cerebral guy with good instincts on top of that.
If you gave him a cannon arm, 4.5 speed, and the ability to shed tackles a la Roethlisberger...Goff would be a consensus generational player, probably. However, he's just a guy with mediocre strength, mediocre speed who takes hits like a quarterback.
So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
I hear this all the time from Browns fans. "No ones worth that high of a pick".....the result is settling for who is left over late in the 1st round. In the mean time other NFL teams have identified the QB they want and do what it takes to get them. Not the (previous i hope) Browns way of...." no ones worthy of a high first, lets chose from whats left over.So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
McCown is fragile (fact). To those not wanting a QB with the 2nd pick, what is your QB alternative because more likely than not, he will see action.
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Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
If you go back a few years, they also had people like Tajh Boyd going at the top of the first round before the season started, and Blake Bortles (in a different year) coming from nowhere to go 3rd to the Jags.
The most recent body of work is almost always the most important at that level.
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I hear this all the time from Browns fans. "No ones worth that high of a pick".....the result is settling for who is left over late in the 1st round. In the mean time other NFL teams have identified the QB they want and do what it takes to get them. Not the (previous i hope) Browns way of...." no ones worthy of a high first, lets chose from whats left over.So....you agree with me that Goff and Lynch may be nothing very special......and overrated due to their position and a dearth of real quality QBs coming out?
McCown is fragile (fact). To those not wanting a QB with the 2nd pick, what is your QB alternative because more likely than not, he will see action.
When you spend a #2 pick on a guy youre drafting for the next 10 years, not just next year. I dont think anyone plans on competing next year, so it doesnt matter whos takin snaps. We could keep McCown, Johnny, and still take a QB.I hear this all the time from Browns fans. "No ones worth that high of a pick".....the result is settling for who is left over late in the 1st round. In the mean time other NFL teams have identified the QB they want and do what it takes to get them. Not the (previous i hope) Browns way of...." no ones worthy of a high first, lets chose from whats left over.
McCown is fragile (fact). To those not wanting a QB with the 2nd pick, what is your QB alternative because more likely than not, he will see action.
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
He ain't no John Elway?
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
I think people have learned more about the importance of the other aspects of the QB game since Weeden came along
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Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
Here is my point......looking at the Walter football draft database......in the early versions of Mock drafts, NO ONE had Lynch and Goff up near the top.....most didn't even have them in the first round. You saw Hackenberg, Cook, even Cardale....but not these guys.
The fact is.....Hackenberg, Cook, Cardale could in fact turn out to as good or better pro QBs as Lynch/Goff.
And my further point is.....if in fact the likes of Lynch/Goff/Wentz are who we thought they were originally......then I would prefer taking a Bosa with #2....and Thomas/Doctson with #32......and getting Hackenber/Cook...even Cardale in round 3.
I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
this is a quality post-- we don't know how goff/lynch/wentz will turn out as pros. If anyone says they do they are fos. Neither of these guys are the class of qb prospect(admittedly very few are) where there is some level of certainty that they will be very very good.
I will say I'm a little concerned that his arm and athleticism doesn't jump off the page at me. Because if it *doesn't* jump off the page in college, it's going to be several steps below that(meaning several steps below great) when translated to the nfl.
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I'd rather get Russell Wilson in round 3 than Brandon Weeden in round 1.
Drafting QBs is such an inexact science......but I see the DE/WR a bit of a more sure thing. (though nothing but Nicollette Sheridan is that)
I guess, conversely....I would rather have taken Brandon Weeden in round 3 than in round 1.
Note: we are not nearly as forlorn about the Browns having taken Charlie Frye and Colt McCoy in the third round. We knew these were risks...and that the investment in them was not as dear as the investment of a 1st round pick.
So, we don't get Nicolette Sheridan in round 1, we take Daphne Zuniga. Not as hot, but cute nevertheless......more a "take home to Mom" kind of girl.
Frye and McCoy were more "take home to Mom" kind of QBs.
I mean....isn't it fair to say that we got more production out of our 3rd round pick than our 1st round picks?
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Here is the deal on that QB production.....using the PFR CA....which measures a players career production. These are these guys total career numbers, including with other team:
Couch: 30
Wynn: 2
Luke McC.: 7
Frye: 8
Quinn: 2
McCoy: 12
Weeden: 12
Johnny: 1
Just to give comparison, here are the numbers of some decidedly mediocre or below QBs:
Matt Cassell 45
Kyle Orton 41
Vince Young 33
Josh Freeman 38
Mark Sanchez 33
Tim Tebow 12
Sam Bradford 25
And compare to these guys: youngest to oldest:
Luck: 42
Wilson : 46
Newton 56
Dalton 43
Kaepernick 34
Rodgers 107
Rivers 114
Roeth. 99
Palmer 84
Brees 141
Brady 146
Peyton 176
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Im on board with the keep Johnny and surround him with better weapons crowd. Hes been a headache, but I think he can play on the field. We can draft another QB in the third round. Go Bosa or Jack at 2, take Henry or Elliot in the second.
Im on board with the keep Johnny and surround him with better weapons crowd. Hes been a headache, but I think he can play on the field. We can draft another QB in the third round. Go Bosa or Jack at 2, take Henry or Elliot in the second.
And the addition of Josh Gordon with an entire training camp and a quarterback that he likes to get in sync with? Fuggetabouttit.
WSS
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sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
Gip,
I have seen enough of your arguments to know you've dug your heels in now... but do you realize in all the time you've spent defending your position, you could have watched every cutdown from Goff's Senior year and formed your own opinion rather than mistakenly regurgitated others' opinions?
sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
Except that Hoyer's arm was 45-ish. McCown's is 55-ish and no one seemed to be complaining. Since the 55 you quoted was my estimate, now it has some context.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The Titans are open to trading their number 1 pick. No wonder they pick first every year. If Goff goes number 1 in a trade then Cleveland should go Bosa and quarterback at 32. Goff just isn't Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck! He might be more Blane Gabbert or Christian Ponder.
I don't think any team is dumb enough to trade up for any of these QBs. We shall see after the Combine.
DAMN THE TORPEDOES! FULL SPEED AHEAD! -
If Goff goes #1 overall to somebody else than I think it would be stupid to not take Joey Bosa. But stupid is as stupid does and stupid might as well be the byline under the Browns header. We'll probably panic and take Paxton Lynch #2.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
The Titans are open to trading their number 1 pick. No wonder they pick first every year. If Goff goes number 1 in a trade then Cleveland should go Bosa and quarterback at 32. Goff just isn't Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck! He might be more Blane Gabbert or Christian Ponder.
I don't think any team is dumb enough to trade up for any of these QBs. We shall see after the Combine.
The Titans are open to trading their number 1 pick. No wonder they pick first every year. If Goff goes number 1 in a trade then Cleveland should go Bosa and quarterback at 32. Goff just isn't Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck! He might be more Blane Gabbert or Christian Ponder.
I don't think any team is dumb enough to trade up for any of these QBs. We shall see after the Combine.
I heard that possibility on Channel eight today.
WSS
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Gip,
I have seen enough of your arguments to know you've dug your heels in now... but do you realize in all the time you've spent defending your position, you could have watched every cutdown from Goff's Senior year and formed your own opinion rather than mistakenly regurgitated others' opinions?
sounds like Goffs arm is on par with Hoyers if we're going with "55 yard'ish". Not saying that disqualifies Goff, but aren't people here always yelling about arm strength arm strength?
Except that Hoyer's arm was 45-ish. McCown's is 55-ish and no one seemed to be complaining. Since the 55 you quoted was my estimate, now it has some context.
Gip,
I have seen enough of your arguments to know you've dug your heels in now... but do you realize in all the time you've spent defending your position, you could have watched every cutdown from Goff's Senior year and formed your own opinion rather than mistakenly regurgitated others' opinions?
Perhaps.....but I do not have the expertise to evaluate these guys like the guys whose opinions I have quoted do.
I mean, Dirty Harry said that a man's got to know his limitations.....and I know mine. I am not an expert quarterback talent evaluator. Certainly not like Bill Polian.
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The Titans are open to trading their number 1 pick. No wonder they pick first every year. If Goff goes number 1 in a trade then Cleveland should go Bosa and quarterback at 32. Goff just isn't Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck! He might be more Blane Gabbert or Christian Ponder.
I don't think any team is dumb enough to trade up for any of these QBs. We shall see after the Combine.
The Titans are open to trading their number 1 pick. No wonder they pick first every year. If Goff goes number 1 in a trade then Cleveland should go Bosa and quarterback at 32. Goff just isn't Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck! He might be more Blane Gabbert or Christian Ponder.
I don't think any team is dumb enough to trade up for any of these QBs. We shall see after the Combine.
Be ready for the shitstorm you are going to get for having an opinion like that
err.....well....like mine.
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Greg Cosell says Goff is a better prospect than Winston (remember that I said it first though right)
I like Cosell a lot more than some of the other losers - although the other losers also say that Goff is the best, so it's virtually unanimous.
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Greg Cosell says Goff is a better prospect than Winston (remember that I said it first though right)
I like Cosell a lot more than some of the other losers - although the other losers also say that Goff is the best, so it's virtually unanimous.
Greg Cosell says Goff is a better prospect than Winston (remember that I said it first though right)
I like Cosell a lot more than some of the other losers - although the other losers also say that Goff is the best, so it's virtually unanimous.
Greg Cosell has as much credibility as Howard Cosell reporting on the assasination of the President of San Marcos.
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