Rosterology
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Johnny on. Johnny off. Johnny on. Johnny off.Wax on. Wax off. Wax on. Wax off.
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Don't be a Settler & move on from cable & upgrade to direct tv. No wonder jimmy hired a analytics firm to get $$$/talent figured out. Aged under outrageous contracts imo. Starks ($ for nothing & wiffs & flags for free). Kruger, T. Williams, Whitner & Bow$. Paid Top Draft Picks in Manziel, Gilbert, Erving. Ready to move on short list would include Poyer or Bademosi, Hughes, Robertson, Mingo & A. Bryant. Dray, Hawk nor Gabe were no better than Darius Jennings imo.
You could easily add Dansby to the list. Although more than serviceable the price tag is way too high. But hey the Browns had cap money and Dansby isn't a dummy.Don't be a Settler & move on from cable & upgrade to direct tv. No wonder jimmy hired a analytics firm to get $$$/talent figured out. Aged under outrageous contracts imo. Starks ($ for nothing & wiffs & flags for free). Kruger, T. Williams, Whitner & Bow$. Paid Top Draft Picks in Manziel, Gilbert, Erving. Ready to move on short list would include Poyer or Bademosi, Hughes, Robertson, Mingo & A. Bryant. Dray, Hawk nor Gabe were no better than Darius Jennings imo.
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None of the non-OL are even serviceable as a blocker today. TE/FB/HB all need serious upgrades.
Starks is terrible. Is Mingo fast enough for ST/ backup SS duty?
Gordon could be useful if serious.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Thanks for the invite, Flugs... Offense first.
- I'm in on Gordon and his return to #1 WR status. Don't see Pryor working out. Gabe feels vulnerable.
- Dray had an off year; can bounce back, but is no H-back.
- I think Mack and Schwartz are gone. Reason for Mack is obvious. I think Schwartz will be too expensive for an OT with suspect LT potential.
- Erving to RT feels like the path of least resistance to him contributing.
WR - Gordon, Benjamin, Gabriel, Draftee
RT - Schwartz, Erving, PS/UFA
RG - Greco, Draftee/UDFA
C - Mack, Draftee, Greco
LG - Bitonio, Pazstor,
LT - Thomas
TE - Barnidge, Dray, Bibbs
WR - Draftee, Hartline, Pryor
H-back - UDFA/UFA, Bibbs, Watson Dray or
Slot Receiver - Benjamin/Hawkins/UDFA/Gabriel, Draftee
RB - Crowell, Johnson, Watson, UDFA
QB - McCown, Draftee, Davis Shaw
- Nick Martin out of ND floats my Center boat, but he's a 2nd round guy at best and might slip into Day 1.
- There's a couple Day 3/UDFA OG candidates I'm looking at. Dahl impressed me at the Sr. Bowl; he's a Day 3 OG.
- There are always UDFA RBs and WRs you can cast a net for. If analytics are going to help anywhere...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Tom the only one I disagree with you about is Gordon. If he's managed to stay clean for a year- he deserves a final shot. He's cheap, and we certainly can't trust him. I'm not ready to send league leading wr yards away for a song.
I respect your opinion Larry. I certainly didn't get to my opinion until I had seen too much evidence that we can't ever get this guy on the field regardless of excuses an alibis. You know that fool me once, fool me twice thing? I even gave him an extra one of those after he couldn't get that right in college either my man. Therefore, my pov is we wouldn't be sending a league leading WR packing - just the memory of that from 3 calendar years ago. We would be looking for exchange value for a guy we haven't been able to get on the field, which helps us bury such a distraction.
Even worse, the next time he messes up whether it's just 1 or 2 beers again or being with the wrong company as usual - his career goes into permanent park. This league leader you speak of dates all the way back to 2013 (as we head to 2016), which was about the last time Dwayne Bowe was relevant. In 2014, the version of Josh Gordon I saw showed up not caring enough to know the playbook or getting to team meetings on time after vowing we would see the best of Josh Gordon when he got his next opportunity. A team that was 7-4 (after his first game back) ended up finishing 7-9 with 5 consecutive losses. Actions speak louder than words to the extent he's turned down 7 figure salaries to continue to hang out with the wrong company.
My take is Jerry Jones has the God complex with the mindset that fans in Texas welcome their former college heroes to be the most interested owner in a package of Manziel and Gordon. He's taken in a lot of party animals over the years dating back to the Cocaine Cowboys by showing everyone his inventory of Superbowl rings when they question his decisions about character within. My guess is the reason Manziel wasn't already sent packing isn't because the intellect we now have in the front office think this time he's REALLY going to prioritize football. I think they feel they can put together a package deal that Jerry just won't be able to say no to which does 3 things for us on draft day:
1) Keeps him from trading up ahead of us for the QB we want.
2) Gets us some additional picks on players that will be more willing to prioritize their NFL opportunity than Manziel and Gordon have been willing to thus far (addition by subtraction plus addition of draft picks).
3) We can finally stop holding the idea of drafting help at WR hostage to the stale idea of "yeah but we already have Josh Gordon."
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Tramon Williams is underrated. he was targeted like CRAZY against steep competition. i'm a big fan.
if all our db's can stay healthy and Gilbert is at least avg LOOK OUT.
Barnidge can be our Heiden, i hope they add a blue chip receiving TE...or at least a "Jordan Cameron".
Gordon being permitted to return this year would open up a lot of options. i agree w all of you on Benj, Gabe, Hawk, and Hart but the madden in me wants Pryor to be the Browns player who Greg Little couldn't be.
when i think about the mingos...shelton, gilbert, erving...richardson, weeden, manziel...all 1st rd picks that sucked. even with taylor, mack, haden and thomas we sucked. give someone those 11 1st rd picks again along with hindsight and that team is probably playing in the SB next week. that's a 1st rd pick at every position on an offense or defense. regardless...if analytics and football guy's instinct says stay the course or fire sale, i'm in either way.
never thought i'd be saying this--i've loved the 3-4 forever--but i'm getting a little sick of it. that and ineffective hard to personel tweener schemes and the hybrids that seem too complex for all but vet players to grasp. it doesn't have to be vanilla and i really like wrinkles like how our D walked around and delayed getting set all the time...it just sucks not having success and continuity.i really dont care as long as it works and players that fit the scheme can be found. i can't remember the last time i had confidence in a Browns defense. Gocong's three goal line stops in a row vs Pgh was so foreign it left me dumb. i remember i even forgot to cheer and just stared blankly, confused who that could actually be or how it was happening. -
Tour, do you really think Davis beats out Shaw?
I don't see it - Shaw has that "it".
Davis is something more akin to
weeden. Never will have "it"
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Regarding mccown I'm meh on him. He played well enough when he wasn't concussed which, if you recall, happened halfway through the first game
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Reluctant about giving Erving one more year? The guy was said to play any OL position, but he was way less qualified at guard. He was also a rookie. Yes, he got his ass blown apart many times last season, and yes...his play was concerning. However, it got a tad better at the end, and Erving is a worker. Give him another year in the weight room, and we'll see how it goes next year.
I'm so excited that Joe Thomas appears to want to stay with us. I couldn't believe I read that article which stated something to the effect of "he's all in" or something. We were dangerously close to losing Schwartz, Mack, and Thomas. Now, technically we still COULD, but I have a feeling Schwartz and Thomas aren't going anywhere. Mack will leave, and I can't blame him. The only two things that MIGHT tempt him to stay, would be his enormous salary and his friendship with the other OL. If Mack opts out to sign another deal, it's unlikely that he'll be able to match what he's making now. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. If Mack leaves, we have Erving. He struggled most of the year, and his play was alarming, but I want to see him play another position after a year with the strength people.
I like Hartline, but I'd like to upgrade him. We can keep him, but I'd kill for more firepower.
The defense is what really scares me. We don't have a viable pass rush, and finding those guys in the draft or FA is so tough to do. It's time to get rid of Justin Gilbert, and probably Whitner (Whiffner?). Sounds like Gipson is gone too, which sucks. So we need a corner, at least one safety, a sack artist, and lord knows what else. And it sounds like we're using the first pick on a QB, so we're going to have to nail the second round if we go defense.
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Oh, one more thing. We need a new kicker, and I don't even think it's debatable. Kicking 50+ yard FG's in the NFL is a must, and if our kicker can't get it high enough, it's a problem. Can it be fixed? I have no clue, as I know next to nothing about kicking FG's. But there are always free lance kickers out there, and I think we should at LEAST bring in another for a competition. I love Coons' accuracy, but there is obviously something wrong. Now, I do realize there were issues with our FG blocking unit, but still....our coaches didn't trust Coons, and there was a reason for that.
Always viewing football through my garnet and gold glasses, I have to say that FSU's kicker is one of the best college kickers I've ever seen...
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About 6 months early for this discussion. We need to see who we get as FAs, who we lose, who we draft.
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Tour, do you really think Davis beats out Shaw?
I don't see it - Shaw has that "it".
Davis is something more akin to
weeden. Never will have "it"
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Reluctant about giving Erving one more year? The guy was said to play any OL position, but he was way less qualified at guard. He was also a rookie. Yes, he got his ass blown apart many times last season, and yes...his play was concerning. However, it got a tad better at the end, and Erving is a worker. Give him another year in the weight room, and we'll see how it goes next year.
I'm so excited that Joe Thomas appears to want to stay with us. I couldn't believe I read that article which stated something to the effect of "he's all in" or something. We were dangerously close to losing Schwartz, Mack, and Thomas. Now, technically we still COULD, but I have a feeling Schwartz and Thomas aren't going anywhere. Mack will leave, and I can't blame him. The only two things that MIGHT tempt him to stay, would be his enormous salary and his friendship with the other OL. If Mack opts out to sign another deal, it's unlikely that he'll be able to match what he's making now. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. If Mack leaves, we have Erving. He struggled most of the year, and his play was alarming, but I want to see him play another position after a year with the strength people.
I like Hartline, but I'd like to upgrade him. We can keep him, but I'd kill for more firepower.
The defense is what really scares me. We don't have a viable pass rush, and finding those guys in the draft or FA is so tough to do. It's time to get rid of Justin Gilbert, and probably Whitner (Whiffner?). Sounds like Gipson is gone too, which sucks. So we need a corner, at least one safety, a sack artist, and lord knows what else. And it sounds like we're using the first pick on a QB, so we're going to have to nail the second round if we go defense.
Reluctant about giving Erving one more year? The guy was said to play any OL position, but he was way less qualified at guard. He was also a rookie. Yes, he got his ass blown apart many times last season, and yes...his play was concerning. However, it got a tad better at the end, and Erving is a worker. Give him another year in the weight room, and we'll see how it goes next year.
JR, I liked your points but this one seemed strange considering my cut and paste of what you replied to below in italics. Did I really need to add the NFL isn't the ACC when we talk about being able to play 5 different oline positions?
C. Erving - With some degree of reluctance, I have to give him 1 more year. I'm just not sure we can correct his leverage issues vrs many of the powerful/stout frames he will face. Joe Thomas doesn't seem to think we need to panic about him so let's see what the experience and off season conditioning does to better this story.
What led to my concern more than anything is Offensive Guards aren't usually going against the taller, lighter/leaner guys that are naturally easier to establish better leverage against. They're with facing the girthier powerhouses ranging from 330-360 lbs lining up across from OGs. Consequently a guy that can't bend well like say like a similar built McQuistan got rag dolled inside here in Cleveland while Seattle felt he was a very effective fill in starter at Tackle for their Superbowl Championship Team. What would be the major difference? How about outweighing most of his opponents (DEs/OLBs) by about 30-50 lbs? Most DEs range from about 6'4-6'7" so it wasn't as much of a natural disadvantage as he found inside from a leverage/pad height thang. Makes a difference. While I'm at it here, do you know what OLBs/Edge Rushers tended to give Joe Thomas the biggest challenges? Elvis Dumerville and James Harrison because they do the best job of getting up under Joe.
While I agree power was part of Erving's issue, not being able to bend seemed far bigger. That means absolute forfeiture of one's legs/base. That's why coaches love Okie drills so they can tell whoever loses - you surrendered your base with sloppy pad height. It's also an ideal time to remind players that David doesn't always need a sling shot to kick Goliath's ass. This was usually the reason Erving was getting tossed like a salad regardless of his likable qualities of effort and enthusiasm. I have to agree with Tour's point that RT might end up being his best niche.
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Tramon Williams is underrated. he was targeted like CRAZY against steep competition. i'm a big fan.
if all our db's can stay healthy and Gilbert is at least avg LOOK OUT.
Barnidge can be our Heiden, i hope they add a blue chip receiving TE...or at least a "Jordan Cameron".
Gordon being permitted to return this year would open up a lot of options. i agree w all of you on Benj, Gabe, Hawk, and Hart but the madden in me wants Pryor to be the Browns player who Greg Little couldn't be.
when i think about the mingos...shelton, gilbert, erving...richardson, weeden, manziel...all 1st rd picks that sucked. even with taylor, mack, haden and thomas we sucked. give someone those 11 1st rd picks again along with hindsight and that team is probably playing in the SB next week. that's a 1st rd pick at every position on an offense or defense. regardless...if analytics and football guy's instinct says stay the course or fire sale, i'm in either way.
never thought i'd be saying this--i've loved the 3-4 forever--but i'm getting a little sick of it. that and ineffective hard to personel tweener schemes and the hybrids that seem too complex for all but vet players to grasp. it doesn't have to be vanilla and i really like wrinkles like how our D walked around and delayed getting set all the time...it just sucks not having success and continuity.i really dont care as long as it works and players that fit the scheme can be found. i can't remember the last time i had confidence in a Browns defense. Gocong's three goal line stops in a row vs Pgh was so foreign it left me dumb. i remember i even forgot to cheer and just stared blankly, confused who that could actually be or how it was happening.Tramon Williams is underrated. he was targeted like CRAZY against steep competition. i'm a big fan.
if all our db's can stay healthy and Gilbert is at least avg LOOK OUT.
Barnidge can be our Heiden, i hope they add a blue chip receiving TE...or at least a "Jordan Cameron".
Gordon being permitted to return this year would open up a lot of options. i agree w all of you on Benj, Gabe, Hawk, and Hart but the madden in me wants Pryor to be the Browns player who Greg Little couldn't be.
when i think about the mingos...shelton, gilbert, erving...richardson, weeden, manziel...all 1st rd picks that sucked. even with taylor, mack, haden and thomas we sucked. give someone those 11 1st rd picks again along with hindsight and that team is probably playing in the SB next week. that's a 1st rd pick at every position on an offense or defense. regardless...if analytics and football guy's instinct says stay the course or fire sale, i'm in either way.
never thought i'd be saying this--i've loved the 3-4 forever--but i'm getting a little sick of it. that and ineffective hard to personel tweener schemes and the hybrids that seem too complex for all but vet players to grasp. it doesn't have to be vanilla and i really like wrinkles like how our D walked around and delayed getting set all the time...it just sucks not having success and continuity.i really dont care as long as it works and players that fit the scheme can be found. i can't remember the last time i had confidence in a Browns defense. Gocong's three goal line stops in a row vs Pgh was so foreign it left me dumb. i remember i even forgot to cheer and just stared blankly, confused who that could actually be or how it was happening.Well done!
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Thanks for the invite, Flugs... Offense first.
- I'm in on Gordon and his return to #1 WR status. Don't see Pryor working out. Gabe feels vulnerable.
- Dray had an off year; can bounce back, but is no H-back.
- I think Mack and Schwartz are gone. Reason for Mack is obvious. I think Schwartz will be too expensive for an OT with suspect LT potential.
- Erving to RT feels like the path of least resistance to him contributing.
WR - Gordon, Benjamin, Gabriel, Draftee
RT - Schwartz, Erving, PS/UFA
RG - Greco, Draftee/UDFA
C - Mack, Draftee, Greco
LG - Bitonio, Pazstor,
LT - Thomas
TE - Barnidge, Dray, Bibbs
WR - Draftee, Hartline, Pryor
H-back - UDFA/UFA, Bibbs, Watson Dray or
Slot Receiver - Benjamin/Hawkins/UDFA/Gabriel, Draftee
RB - Crowell, Johnson, Watson, UDFA
QB - McCown, Draftee, Davis Shaw
- Nick Martin out of ND floats my Center boat, but he's a 2nd round guy at best and might slip into Day 1.
- There's a couple Day 3/UDFA OG candidates I'm looking at. Dahl impressed me at the Sr. Bowl; he's a Day 3 OG.
- There are always UDFA RBs and WRs you can cast a net for. If analytics are going to help anywhere...
Thanks for the invite, Flugs... Offense first.
- I'm in on Gordon and his return to #1 WR status. Don't see Pryor working out. Gabe feels vulnerable.
- Dray had an off year; can bounce back, but is no H-back.
- I think Mack and Schwartz are gone. Reason for Mack is obvious. I think Schwartz will be too expensive for an OT with suspect LT potential.
- Erving to RT feels like the path of least resistance to him contributing.
WR - Gordon, Benjamin, Gabriel, Draftee
RT - Schwartz, Erving, PS/UFA
RG - Greco, Draftee/UDFA
C - Mack, Draftee, Greco
LG - Bitonio, Pazstor,
LT - Thomas
TE - Barnidge, Dray, Bibbs
WR - Draftee, Hartline, Pryor
H-back - UDFA/UFA, Bibbs, Watson Dray or
Slot Receiver - Benjamin/Hawkins/UDFA/Gabriel, Draftee
RB - Crowell, Johnson, Watson, UDFA
QB - McCown, Draftee, Davis Shaw
- Nick Martin out of ND floats my Center boat, but he's a 2nd round guy at best and might slip into Day 1.
- There's a couple Day 3/UDFA OG candidates I'm looking at. Dahl impressed me at the Sr. Bowl; he's a Day 3 OG.
- There are always UDFA RBs and WRs you can cast a net for. If analytics are going to help anywhere...
Nice! Glad you participated. I think your RT idea is a great one for Erving. Tour, if you get a chance - I'd love to see your 3-4 and your 4-3 Ds.
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None of the non-OL are even serviceable as a blocker today. TE/FB/HB all need serious upgrades.
Starks is terrible. Is Mingo fast enough for ST/ backup SS duty?
Gordon could be useful if serious.
None of the non-OL are even serviceable as a blocker today. TE/FB/HB all need serious upgrades.
Starks is terrible. Is Mingo fast enough for ST/ backup SS duty?
Gordon could be useful if serious.
That's some good outside the box thinking about tapping Mingo's coverage skills at Safety. The ONLY concern with it - is he's a lousy open field tackler with secondary being our last tier of defense. Fun point to chew on though so thanks.
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A thought on some others:
Dray can't catch and makes up for that by being a complete failure as a blocker. He should be cut regardless of scheme, he's just not an NFL player..
Gilbert is not a professional at anything he does and hasn't earned his paycheck yet.
Kruger is both overpaid and incompetent. Aside from that, he's great!
Gabriel/Moore/Jennings.. are small and not good. Deuces.
Campbell.. Bring him to camp and if we draft someone better [or if the Oregon guy's knee rehabs] then cut him.
Carder.. how is this guy on an NFL roster? I'd rather have Mingo be our ST roster person than this dude. I can't believe the Dolphins offered a trade for mingo early November last year.... and our glorious FO asked way too much. fuck Farmer.
Pryor.. Bring him to camp. I doubt he's good enough to rank 6th on a roster that keeps 5 WR.
Bowe and Malcolm Johnson.. Goodbye.
WR -- Gordon, Hartline, Hawkins, Benjamin, [draft]
T - Thomas, Schwartz [optimism], [draft]
G - Bitonio, Greco, [draft]
C - Erving
TE - Barnidge, [draft], Bibbs. Wanted In Draft Guy: Blocking.
QB - McCown, [draft].
RB - Crowell, Duke, Mostert/Winston. Watson will see PT.
DE-Cooper, DBryant, Hughes, [draft]
DT-Shelton, Meder
OLB- ABryant, NOrchard, [draft], [draft], [draft]. Dear God make it stop.
ILB - Dansby, Robertson, Kirksey.
CB - Haden, Williams, Gaines, Desir, Williams, Olumu.
S - Gipson, Whitner Poyer, [draft], Bademosi.
. That just made my day complete, Thanks Flugel
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