Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Also as to the potential I have always considered the fact that his first year was impeded to a great extent by his own arrogance and lack of work ethic. The second season he took seriously and worked very hard learn the system and made huge leaps. Unless you want to call your precious Mike Pettine a liar.
Part of coaching 22 year old kids is dealing with that kind of shit. I'm sure Johnny expected high praise and a starting job for the effort he put in. Effort that doesn't come naturally to him so he felt he deserves praise and a starting job. I also don't think coach liked him in the first place and hated to start him even when he was forced to. I think that was counterproductive to the kids development and to the team.
Here's my music example.
let's say I get hired in a Key West club and take long breaks, show up late for the gigs and play the same shit everyday. Club owner has me working the 4 o'clock show. I kind of thought since they hired me from a place where I was King shit I should be doing the 8 o'clock show.Well I bust my ass I learned a dozen new songs I'm there on time and put everything into my performance. Still the bar manager doesn't like me because the owner of the bar had seen me at Put in Bay and was the one who insisted on hiring me. The manager makes it clear that as long as he's in charge I'm doing the 4 o'clock show.
I would certainly be pissed off and especially if I were a younger man probably let it affect my attitude. Especially because I believe, & I probably would do really well at the prime 8 o'clock show.
WSS
Also as to the potential I have always considered the fact that his first year was impeded to a great extent by his own arrogance and lack of work ethic. The second season he took seriously and worked very hard learn the system and made huge leaps. Unless you want to call your precious Mike Pettine a liar.
Part of coaching 22 year old kids is dealing with that kind of shit. I'm sure Johnny expected high praise and a starting job for the effort he put in. Effort that doesn't come naturally to him so he felt he deserves praise and a starting job. I also don't think coach liked him in the first place and hated to start him even when he was forced to. I think that was counterproductive to the kids development and to the team.
Here's my music example.
let's say I get hired in a Key West club and take long breaks, show up late for the gigs and play the same shit everyday. Club owner has me working the 4 o'clock show. I kind of thought since they hired me from a place where I was King shit I should be doing the 8 o'clock show.Well I bust my ass I learned a dozen new songs I'm there on time and put everything into my performance. Still the bar manager doesn't like me because the owner of the bar had seen me at Put in Bay and was the one who insisted on hiring me. The manager makes it clear that as long as he's in charge I'm doing the 4 o'clock show.
I would certainly be pissed off and especially if I were a younger man probably let it affect my attitude. Especially because I believe, & I probably would do really well at the prime 8 o'clock show.
WSS
He was handed the 8 PM slot three times. All three times he performed statistically worse than the starter and ended with an off-the-field incident that showed disrespect to the Browns organization.
Handed the job the first time: Gets the gig in what amounts to a playoff game against the Bungles, and as you admit, he was unprepared and awful. Gets injured, goes on a party spree, skips treatment while Browns are preparing to play their last game with third-stringer.
Handed the job the second time: Has played "OK" in a few replacement appearances for the injured starter, still missing components to his game, but with the season slipping away, the coach says "He's worked hard, he's playing better, let's see what he's got...". Instead of spending the bye week in Cleveland, preparing to be the best QB and teammate he can be during this "8:00pm" gig that he reportedly relished so much ... he flies to Texas, goes on a two-day party binge in a nightclub, and when he gets videotaped, he lies to the coach and the organization about it and coerces others to lie for him. This is following the incident with the girlfriend while still on the 4:00 pm show in which he was fortunate to escape without any legal matters or NFL discipline. Even if you want to to totally peg that on "crazy girlfriend", he was still in a situation where he was being asked by the organization to focus on football in football season, and stay out of the limelight ... and he did it anyway and lied about it. Lost gig #2 before he hit the stage.
Handed the job the third time: "Alright, Johnny. we admit you are better than Austin Davis. And although you haven't done the things we have asked of you as quarterback, or off the field, we believe you have enough potential that we don't want to see it wasted. So the last four games are yours". Starts three games, wins the first one, progressively worse the next two. Holes in his game, but flashes of what could be, and gives 100% on Sundays. After Chiefs 4-point loss (in which the browns defense shut out the playoff bound Chiefs in the second half, but Manziel completed only 40% of his throws for the game and only got us to the end zone once), Manziel comes in Tuesday or Wednesday and self-reports a concussion (there was another party boy video out there, and conspiracy theories abound, but I am going along with what the Browns maintain, that he was concussed in Sundays game ... no problem, it happens) and later in the week he is ruled out for the game (But let's remember, he is still the starting QB on the depth chart ... the 8:00 pm gig is his). Saturday morning, he checks in to the facility, and then instead of ... oh, I don't know, helping Austin Davis prepare for the Steeler team he faced ... he flies to Vegas that morning and doesn't return in time for a team-mandated physical check-in the next morning before the Steeler game. No where to be found while Davis and teammates go out there and battle the Steelers.
So I am the owner of the bar. You've flown the coop, and bumped heads with me and my manager, three times when you were handed the 8 PM slot, and you had some moments, but weren't that entertaining when you did have the gig. Next season there is a new crop of young performers coming into town with a lot of buzz about them. I'm cutting ties with you. I still have the original 8 PM guy and I can find a reliable 4 PM guy who can take over the 8 PM slot without the drama and maybe turn out to be a star.
One thing about the bar comparison though ... it would work better with a tennis player or a golfer. Johnny was a football player, and a quarterback. Everytime he was letting the manager or owner down ... he was letting down 53 teammates who were looking up to him to be a leader.
Some leader.
Zombo
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I won't defend a lot of JM's self-destructive behavior. But I also will not defend Pettine's asinine way of dealing with him from day one. There is plenty of evidence for both of those things. So the Browns do the right thing and rid themselves of both and throw in the crappy GM to boot. I'm fine with it all. Turn the page.
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I think he did make progress. However....it would've been nearly impossible to not make progress from the guy who started the Bengals game in year 1 and looked like a 12 year old kid thrown out to play with the grown ups. Taking all the off field nonsense out of the equation....In my opinion, I'm still not convinced he's going to be a guy who can lead this team to wins. The KC game was an example of just how bad his mechanics are, Rich Gannon (I think) pointed it out all game how bad his footwork was and how that was leading to how inaccurate his passes were. Can that be fixed? Sure....quite possibly but my question (if he was staying on the team) would be, does he really have the work ethic to spend all of his waking hours working his ass off to get better? His actions to this point don't show that to me so even without all the off the field stuff, I don't think he's the guy.
And I share your concerns Mark. I just think he could be the guy. I may be wrong but we will never know.
WSS
And I share your concerns Mark. I just think he could be the guy. I may be wrong but we will never know.
WSS
Which is why you and I can discuss this topic, because I respect your opinion and you at least have the ability to recognize that he's fucked up plenty in his short time with the Browns. The "fan boys" think everything he does on the field is great and everything off the field doesn't matter.
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Well you can't have that proof because first of all coach kept him on the bench for punishment and second of all last year we were the worst team in the league. No matter who played quarterback.
So if you say he made absolutely no progress and is completely unfit to play in the NFL then who can argue with you unless you start somewhere?
I haven't seen any sports writers or sports pundits express that sentiment though.
WSS
Progress isn't sufficient. Put me in an NFL training camp for two years and I'll make a ton of progress. And do my best not to get shitfaced at every opportunity.
Plenty of people have said he's not good enough. But if you're looking for statistics, his completion rate is 57%, his TD:INT ratio is 7:7, basically all of his stats are lower than every other QB in the league. Even Brian Hoyer :S
Progress isn't sufficient. Put me in an NFL training camp for two years and I'll make a ton of progress. And do my best not to get shitfaced at every opportunity.
Plenty of people have said he's not good enough. But if you're looking for statistics, his completion rate is 57%, his TD:INT ratio is 7:7, basically all of his stats are lower than every other QB in the league. Even Brian Hoyer :S
#42 in completion percentage among 44 who qualified.
Lots of work to be done with his game at his next stop, regardless of whether he becomes a dedicated professional or not.
Zombo
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And I share your concerns Mark. I just think he could be the guy. I may be wrong but we will never know.
WSS
You seem to be totally alone in that viewpoint. Let's see if ANY other team picks him up (I doubt it) and let's see how he does there. If he turns his life around, I'll gladly "eat crow". I wish him the best, I REALLY do, but I think his life is headed for tragedy if someone doesn't reach him soon.
You seem to be totally alone in that viewpoint. Let's see if ANY other team picks him up (I doubt it) and let's see how he does there. If he turns his life around, I'll gladly "eat crow". I wish him the best, I REALLY do, but I think his life is headed for tragedy if someone doesn't reach him soon.
Agree with this 100%. He has zero respect for the Browns, zero respect for the fans, zero respect for anyone but himself. I won't be surprised if he doesn't show up when he's called in to Berea to be released by the Browns. Whatever talent he has will never translate to bonafide accomplishments because he continuously shoots his NFL self in the foot.
I can only hope getting cut will be his wake-up call.
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I would be shocked if he didn't get picked up by anyone else - after all, Brandon Weeden got a job, and someone even traded for Colt McCoy. Dallas is the obvious contender along with SF.
Who knows, he may well turn his life around somewhere else, and in a different city. I hope he does. But we're not going anywhere any time soon with him as starter, and he's not worth the distraction as a backup. So cut bait.
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All of that may be true including your psychiatric evaluation of me, but it didn't have an effect on his performance during the 2015 season.
WSS
All of that may be true including your psychiatric evaluation of me, but it didn't have an effect on his performance during the 2015 season.
WSS
I'm sure it did.
But actually if you take the partying excuse away, his progress from awful to "meh" looks worse.
Whoever is going to to take a chance on him is going to gamble on him getting it together and becoming a dedicated professional and student of the game.
That's the mystery of Johnny: IF this guy was 100% dedicated to his craft and a good teammate/leader, COULD he potentially be a Top 15 starter in this league? Probably not ... but if there is a glimmer there, that is where a team will take a shot.
The Browns, with a new coach and a new direction aren't going to deal with him anymore to find out. It seems a very sound decision. I am ready for Hue Jack City ... wouldn't be fair to saddle him with Johnny.
Zombo
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I would be shocked if he didn't get picked up by anyone else - after all, Brandon Weeden got a job, and someone even traded for Colt McCoy. Dallas is the obvious contender along with SF.
Who knows, he may well turn his life around somewhere else, and in a different city. I hope he does. But we're not going anywhere any time soon with him as starter, and he's not worth the distraction as a backup. So cut bait.
I would be shocked if he didn't get picked up by anyone else - after all, Brandon Weeden got a job, and someone even traded for Colt McCoy. Dallas is the obvious contender along with SF.
Who knows, he may well turn his life around somewhere else, and in a different city. I hope he does. But we're not going anywhere any time soon with him as starter, and he's not worth the distraction as a backup. So cut bait.
I'll be surprised if he DOES get picked up by anyone else. Weeden is a crappy QB, but at least he isn't going to embarrass your team (errant shovel passes not withstanding). I don't think anyone is going to risk it with him unless he turns it around first. Given his regression after already going to rehab last year, I'm not optimistic.
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I would be shocked if he didn't get picked up by anyone else - after all, Brandon Weeden got a job, and someone even traded for Colt McCoy. Dallas is the obvious contender along with SF.
Who knows, he may well turn his life around somewhere else, and in a different city. I hope he does. But we're not going anywhere any time soon with him as starter, and he's not worth the distraction as a backup. So cut bait.
I'll be surprised if he DOES get picked up by anyone else. Weeden is a crappy QB, but at least he isn't going to embarrass your team (errant shovel passes not withstanding). I don't think anyone is going to risk it with him unless he turns it around first. Given his regression after already going to rehab last year, I'm not optimistic.
I'll be surprised if he DOES get picked up by anyone else. Weeden is a crappy QB, but at least he isn't going to embarrass your team (errant shovel passes not withstanding). I don't think anyone is going to risk it with him unless he turns it around first. Given his regression after already going to rehab last year, I'm not optimistic.
Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
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Z, I think my scenario works okay though I understand the golfer tennis player hook. In this bar the servers and bartenders depend on me, and even though the manager is pissed off that I was down the street the night before drinking at a competitor's bar or whatever the crowd still likes me better when I'm allowed to work.
Maybe the manager finds out that I was making out with his girlfriend the night before so he takes the 1 o'clock guy, who blows, and give him my slot. Everybody loses.
If I hadn't shown up for a gig and we had dead and that's one thing but it's my job to entertain the customers even on a slow night. And if I keep playing regularly more and more people begin to show up and I get a better handle on that crowd.
(of course with the real Westside Steve and John Meehan in a beer joint I can't imagine the profits wouldn't be substantial!)
WSS
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All of that may be true including your psychiatric evaluation of me, but it didn't have an effect on his performance during the 2015 season.
WSS
I'm sure it did.
But actually if you take the partying excuse away, his progress from awful to "meh" looks worse.
Whoever is going to to take a chance on him is going to gamble on him getting it together and becoming a dedicated professional and student of the game.
That's the mystery of Johnny: IF this guy was 100% dedicated to his craft and a good teammate/leader, COULD he potentially be a Top 15 starter in this league? Probably not ... but if there is a glimmer there, that is where a team will take a shot.
The Browns, with a new coach and a new direction aren't going to deal with him anymore to find out. It seems a very sound decision. I am ready for Hue Jack City ... wouldn't be fair to saddle him with Johnny.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I'm sure it did.
But actually if you take the partying excuse away, his progress from awful to "meh" looks worse.
Whoever is going to to take a chance on him is going to gamble on him getting it together and becoming a dedicated professional and student of the game.
That's the mystery of Johnny: IF this guy was 100% dedicated to his craft and a good teammate/leader, COULD he potentially be a Top 15 starter in this league? Probably not ... but if there is a glimmer there, that is where a team will take a shot.
The Browns, with a new coach and a new direction aren't going to deal with him anymore to find out. It seems a very sound decision. I am ready for Hue Jack City ... wouldn't be fair to saddle him with Johnny.
Zombo
We shall see. Seems to me that if everybody on the team was as dedicated as you believe they were we'd have won more games last season regardless a quarterback.
But if you dismiss Johnnys progress since the first Cincinnati game was so dismal I guess next season any progreys by coach Jackson will get the same luke warm reception?
WSS
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And I share your concerns Mark. I just think he could be the guy. I may be wrong but we will never know.
WSS
Which is why you and I can discuss this topic, because I respect your opinion and you at least have the ability to recognize that he's fucked up plenty in his short time with the Browns. The "fan boys" think everything he does on the field is great and everything off the field doesn't matter.
Which is why you and I can discuss this topic, because I respect your opinion and you at least have the ability to recognize that he's fucked up plenty in his short time with the Browns. The "fan boys" think everything he does on the field is great and everything off the field doesn't matter.
Actually Mark if you visit the texags.com website you will find that JF is still regarded for what he brought to A&M, but realistically see his self-destructive NFL stint as a failure thus far, primarily due to his off-field problems.
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I'll be surprised if he DOES get picked up by anyone else. Weeden is a crappy QB, but at least he isn't going to embarrass your team (errant shovel passes not withstanding). I don't think anyone is going to risk it with him unless he turns it around first. Given his regression after already going to rehab last year, I'm not optimistic.
Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
If that happens, at least another team will be the laughing stock of the league for a while.
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Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
If that happens, at least another team will be the laughing stock of the league for a while.
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I'll be surprised if he DOES get picked up by anyone else. Weeden is a crappy QB, but at least he isn't going to embarrass your team (errant shovel passes not withstanding). I don't think anyone is going to risk it with him unless he turns it around first. Given his regression after already going to rehab last year, I'm not optimistic.
Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
They'll offer him a contract that only guarantees him peanuts though.So if he does act up he'll get cut without much penalty for the team.
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Someone will fall in love with him, he'll charm the right people and say the right thing in interviews, when coaches ask him "are your partying days behind you?" "oh yes sir, absolutely, one hundred percent in the past"
They'll offer him a contract that only guarantees him peanuts though.So if he does act up he'll get cut without much penalty for the team.
They'll offer him a contract that only guarantees him peanuts though.So if he does act up he'll get cut without much penalty for the team.
Sure, and we'll still be paying him. Not saying they'll give him anything good, but someone will take him in for a look.
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Zombo said:
I'm sure it did.
But actually if you take the partying excuse away, his progress from awful to "meh" looks worse.
Whoever is going to to take a chance on him is going to gamble on him getting it together and becoming a dedicated professional and student of the game.
That's the mystery of Johnny: IF this guy was 100% dedicated to his craft and a good teammate/leader, COULD he potentially be a Top 15 starter in this league? Probably not ... but if there is a glimmer there, that is where a team will take a shot.
The Browns, with a new coach and a new direction aren't going to deal with him anymore to find out. It seems a very sound decision. I am ready for Hue Jack City ... wouldn't be fair to saddle him with Johnny.
Zombo
We shall see. Seems to me that if everybody on the team was as dedicated as you believe they were we'd have won more games last season regardless a quarterback.
But if you dismiss Johnnys progress since the first Cincinnati game was so dismal I guess next season any progreys by coach Jackson will get the same luke warm reception?
WSS
We shall see. Seems to me that if everybody on the team was as dedicated as you believe they were we'd have won more games last season regardless a quarterback.
But if you dismiss Johnnys progress since the first Cincinnati game was so dismal I guess next season any progreys by coach Jackson will get the same luke warm reception?
WSS
I'm not saying he hasn't progressed from the first Cincy game. I don't think anyone is.
I gave him a complete pass for 2014, going into this year, like it never happened.
But 2015 ... Meh.
Lots of holes in that game, not worth the horsehit.
I feel pretty safe in saying that we can find a better QB that would commit himself to being a Cleveland Brown.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Sorry that we are starting over at the QB position ... but it is Clearly the best option to me. And I guess Jimmy, Hue and all of the Harvard brainiacs too.
Zombo
--BTW First Take about to discuss Johnny on ESPN, should be interesting.
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Sure, and we'll still be paying him. Not saying they'll give him anything good, but someone will take him in for a look.
For a look maybe. Leaf never made another roster. And folks always pull out the Favre card, but he was a 2nd round pick that his team was able to trade for a 1st round pick. So it's not like he was cut. And he obviously had a much much much higher value and upside then Johnny does for the packers to pay a 1st round pick for him. By year 2 he had gotten his shit together, showed up and played great. Johnny is a lot closer to Leaf than he is to Favre. Tebow is a good comparison too. Great college QB who doesnt translate to the NFL. Distraction for his team. TMZ baby. At least he tried and seemed to care. Id rather have Tebow.
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Sure, and we'll still be paying him. Not saying they'll give him anything good, but someone will take him in for a look.
For a look maybe. Leaf never made another roster. And folks always pull out the Favre card, but he was a 2nd round pick that his team was able to trade for a 1st round pick. So it's not like he was cut. And he obviously had a much much much higher value and upside then Johnny does for the packers to pay a 1st round pick for him. By year 2 he had gotten his shit together, showed up and played great. Johnny is a lot closer to Leaf than he is to Favre. Tebow is a good comparison too. Great college QB who doesnt translate to the NFL. Distraction for his team. TMZ baby. At least he tried and seemed to care. Id rather have Tebow.
For a look maybe. Leaf never made another roster. And folks always pull out the Favre card, but he was a 2nd round pick that his team was able to trade for a 1st round pick. So it's not like he was cut. And he obviously had a much much much higher value and upside then Johnny does for the packers to pay a 1st round pick for him. By year 2 he had gotten his shit together, showed up and played great. Johnny is a lot closer to Leaf than he is to Favre.
I don't disagree, but where there's intrigue there's always another look-see.
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