Camp Wentz- Starts here.

Mike H

@hoorta said:

Here's my thoughts on Wentz- and I'm with you on beware fast risers. He did win a couple National Championships. He checks all the boxes- except

Limited game sample size, against inferior competition. Well to counter that we have Flacco- Delaware, Steve McNair-Alcorn State (Drafted #3 BTW), and Ken Anderson- Augustana.

Injury of broken wrist, and shoulder problems. Anthony Munoz and our own Joe Thomas both had ACL tears in college.

My big problem is- though he checks all the physical boxes you could want, can he process and read NFL defenses in a timely manner? Arg- please not Brandon Wee-done.

Watch all of his games, this is NOT a problem. He has this ability, and you can see it.

hoorta

@mike-h said:
Watch all of his games, this is NOT a problem. He has this ability, and you can see it.

In Hue I trust. I'm sure they'll watch every snap Wentz, Goff, and Lynch took, and have private workouts with all of them- and maybe a few other guys.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@d-bone said:

Same argument could be said for Wentz. How many board members new this guy's name 40 days ago? Maybe if we're lucky we'll draft another workout warrior like Veikune, after all, he was a stud in a tank top.

About three of us. Coincidentally, the same three who were also saying the Bosa wasn't some amazing prospect back then.

stillmotion

@the-gipper said:

@stillmotion said:

I never said the kid sucked or anything. This is just my gut feeling and my opinion bro. As you said, no one ultimately knows what can happen, but my prediction is he'll be good (not great).

Sure, but it is a gut feeling that goes against what most people think.

Look at what the so called experts said about Clowney, Courtney Brown, and even Johnny Manziel....

That fact is that anyone can make educated guesses, but what makes someone an expert?

Being on ESPN? Writing for NFL.com?

Well, that makes them a professional....which I assume makes them more of an expert than you or I.

Ultimately, even if Bosa is the top pick, if he's ever gonna be elite like Watt he needs to work harder than everyone. He won't be able to kill everyone in the NFL.... Do you know enough about his personality to fully guess that he will?

Again, pure speculation. He will probably work as hard as he needs to.

Plus, he said negative things about the city of Cleveland and insinuated he didn't want to play here. So if we draft him, who goes to say he won't bounce as soon as his rookie contract is up?

I don't give a crap about that. He said those out of ignorance. If he comes here, he will find that he likes it.

I'd rather have a kid who works his ass off and wants it more than anyone else.... And someone who wants to be here....

Not somebody being worshipped by everybody (see Clowney).

I think Goff is the right call, and will be fucking elite. Wentz might be slightly bigger and i see him having a potentially great career, but I think Goff is naturally better, and just wants it more.

It's a deep defensive draft, but how many potentially great QB's are there? None IMO

Is Bosa a once in a decade type of talent, in many estimations, yes

or can we get a badass DE in the second or third round, and potentially a great QB? No one really knows the answer to any of these questions.

I firmly think it's very naive to say that if he comes here he'll like it after he publicly dissed Cleveland. Anyways bro i'm not picking a fight with you and you're entitled to your opinion too and I respect that, I just don't think he's the best fit for the Browns....

wargograw

I think Bosa's a lot better than Buckner, but that's just me. Certainly, all the pundits are starting to disagree.

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:
Larry didn't link Goff. I didn't see that link.

I know... stings doesn't it?

Tour2ma

@mike-h said:
A stellar performance in shorts and tees would have eliminated some of those concerns, but it kind of created another bit of doubt.

Agree... Combine should at a minimum confirm game tape perceptions. Joey's simply did not... not even mine which were more reserved than some around here.

@canton-mike said:
When I see McShay's name, I start getting sick.I can't believe they PAY him.

In comparison to Kiper, I love McShay.

@mike-h said:
Watch all of his games, this is NOT a problem. He has this ability, and you can see it.

I have watched as many 2015 cutdowns as I could find, 5 in all, and I can't see it, Mike... at least not from the broadcast footage.

Edit: DraftBreakdown now has all 7 of his 2015 games. http://draftbreakdown.com/players/carson-wentz/

Are there any all 22 links you can supply?

Mike H

@tour2ma said:

I have watched as many 2015 cutdowns as I could find, 5 in all, and I can't see it, Mike... at least not from the broadcast footage.

Edit: DraftBreakdown now has all 7 of his 2015 games. http://draftbreakdown.com/players/carson-wentz/

Are there any all 22 links you can supply?

I don't have time to make cut ups or clips, and didn't record specific time stamps in my notes, but ITP produced a good cut up of one play that he displays it.

D Bone

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:
About three of us

Well, if we do pick Wentz it sounds like your name is attached to him, and for all of our sake, hopefully it's you who's beating his own chest, proclaiming your greatness as he becomes the 1st QB to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl.

I'm hoping we trade back, but either way, it will be interesting for sure.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@d-bone said:

Well, if we do pick Wentz it sounds like your name is attached to him, and for all of our sake, hopefully it's you who's beating his own chest, proclaiming your greatness as he becomes the 1st QB to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl.

I'm hoping we trade back, but either way, it will be interesting for sure.

I wouldn't go that far. Maybe a nice casual "I told you so" every now and then.

Beating my chest would feel a bit disingenuous because I also believe Goff will be a good NFL pro, and it's not fair to subscribe to both camps and then mouth off when one does well.

Although, if it goes the other way, and Wentz sucks...

When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at.

When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on.

D Bone

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at.

When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on.

Luckily for me, I'm pretty good at both, but neither is easy.

Canton Mike

I'm solidly in the Wentz camp now & even though TCPO & I have butted heads at times, he came out some time ago, before most of us even knew who Wentz was, & said he was the top QB in this draft class. He has never wavered from his stance & for that, he has my respect.

Mike

Tour2ma

Links to any raw footage are fine, Mike... Time is something I have plenty of.

On the link you provided...

I see the initial look Schofield points out. Wentz definitely checked out the rotation of the Safety high. But I disagree with his assessment of the correctness of the read. Also note that the Corners tipped the coverage with the one to the top shaded inside and the slot shaded outside.

My take is everything points to targeting the TE running the post once he clears the LBs under. The TE post essentially wrong foots the Safety rolling to the single high and the CB to the top is locked into man-on-man and running himself out of the play. Clearing the flat-footed LB should have been a given... should have been seen. Even allowing for the influence of the throw on the single-high safety, I think the TE was a much easier completion. But it was a completion that required seeing the window, not an open receiver.

In the Pros, with limited downfield contact allowed, a back shoulder to the single-covered WR would be a viable choice as well. Again, viable only if the window is recognized.

Instead I see Wentz electing to throw into the teeth of the coverage... and a bit behind his WR to boot. A completion to the wrong receiver in my eyes. I think he saw an open receiver there... in a window.

Interestingly I was critiquing a Schofield article over on Reddit earlier today.

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/01/defendants-brief-reply-draft-evaluators-v-carson-wentz/

Only have gotten as far as his initial comparison of Goff and Wentz's footwork... with which I also shockingly disagreed. But then Scho was claiming that Wentz standing still was footwork.

I do like Scho's toys though...

Interestingly the same defense used in your clip was used in a red zone situation against Wentz in the article's first example of his standing still footwork...

Tour2ma

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at.

When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on.

What asshole came up with... oh... nevermind...

@canton-mike said:
I'm solidly in the Wentz camp now & even though TCPO & I have butted heads at times, he came out some time ago, before most of us even knew who Wentz was, & said he was the top QB in this draft class. He has never wavered from his stance & for that, he has my respect.

lol... FFS, Mike at least wait until it's at least looking like he's right...

You know, like it's looking like he was about Bortles... and Jameis...

Tim Couch Pulls Out

Thanks, Mike. And you, Tour. We butt heads but it's all in good fun, even if it does get a little dirty.

But let's also call it like it is, I thought Manziel would be our starter next season and that Zac Dysert had a chance at becoming a starting NFL QB. So it all evens out...

Tour2ma

Butting heads is fun... when it's over a topic...

... and you're welcome...

hoorta

@d-bone said:

Well, if we do pick Wentz it sounds like your name is attached to him, and for all of our sake, hopefully it's you who's beating his own chest, proclaiming your greatness as he becomes the 1st QB to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl.

I'm hoping we trade back, but either way, it will be interesting for sure.

Well, we have a poster here that still thinks Trent Richardson has a future in the NFL, and Manziel doesn't have a serious drinking problem. He guessed right on Matthieu, but blind squirrels find nuts occasionally. We have a lower floor here than most boards, but we also have a higher ceiling.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I wouldn't go that far. Maybe a nice casual "I told you so" every now and then.

Beating my chest would feel a bit disingenuous because I also believe Goff will be a good NFL pro, and it's not fair to subscribe to both camps and then mouth off when one does well.

Although, if it goes the other way, and Wentz sucks...

When you win, say nothing - that part I'm pretty solid at.

When you lose, say less - that part I still need work on.

Oh, we have a few major "I told you so" types around. Our resident accordion player for one. It's easy to predict disaster when the Browns have done nothing in general but suck since 1999.

Mike H

@tour2ma said:

Links to any raw footage are fine, Mike... Time is something I have plenty of.

On the link you provided...

I see the initial look Schofield points out. Wentz definitely checked out the rotation of the Safety high. But I disagree with his assessment of the correctness of the read. Also note that the Corners tipped the coverage with the one to the top shaded inside and the slot shaded outside.

My take is everything points to targeting the TE running the post once he clears the LBs under. The TE post essentially wrong foots the Safety rolling to the single high and the CB to the top is locked into man-on-man and running himself out of the play. Clearing the flat-footed LB should have been a given... should have been seen. Even allowing for the influence of the throw on the single-high safety, I think the TE was a much easier completion. But it was a completion that required seeing the window, not an open receiver.

In the Pros, with limited downfield contact allowed, a back shoulder to the single-covered WR would be a viable choice as well. Again, viable only if the window is recognized.

Instead I see Wentz electing to throw into the teeth of the coverage... and a bit behind his WR to boot. A completion to the wrong receiver in my eyes. I think he saw an open receiver there... in a window.

Interestingly I was critiquing a Schofield article over on Reddit earlier today.

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/01/defendants-brief-reply-draft-evaluators-v-carson-wentz/

Only have gotten as far as his initial comparison of Goff and Wentz's footwork... with which I also shockingly disagreed. But then Scho was claiming that Wentz standing still was footwork.

I do like Scho's toys though...

Interestingly the same defense used in your clip was used in a red zone situation against Wentz in the article's first example of his standing still footwork...

Good stuff. Didn't read the Reddit thing or any of Schofeld's other work extensively. I'm trying to keep away from reading too much while I finish up my evals.

But I do disagree that he threw into the teeth of the defense. You're nitpicking this play a little bit too much IMO. He read the field, processed what he saw quickly, and completed a pass into a tight-ish window. A very nice, catchable first down pass, I might add, that fell in between two defenders.

And Larry asked if Wentz can process information fast enough.

I don't think -- no, I know -- that even highly successful quarterbacks without the benefit of hindsight, will miss a read or hypothetical window multiple times per game.

I'm curious to your thoughts.

Tour2ma

@mike-h said:

Good stuff. Didn't read the Reddit thing or any of Schofeld's other work extensively. I'm trying to keep away from reading too much while I finish up my evals.

But I do disagree that he threw into the teeth of the defense. You're nitpicking this play a little bit too much IMO. He read the field, processed what he saw quickly, and completed a pass into a tight-ish window. A very nice, catchable first down pass, I might add, that fell in between two defenders.

And Larry asked if Wentz can process information fast enough.

I don't think -- no, I know -- that even highly successful quarterbacks without the benefit of hindsight, will miss a read or hypothetical window multiple times per game.

I'm curious to your thoughts.

First... me nitpick? lol....

Did look again and that second look at the WR right that Wentz took... that was what the Safety told him to do, so that's one good read for Kid Carson. But then he did look at the TE and should have been right about the time he was even with the LILB (an all-22 would erase all doubt). That was the throw, right there. Just feels like he had to see a WR open that play... same as many other throws in the five games I've watched him. The requisite anticipation may come, but I already see it in "the other guy"... regularly.

Yup, between two defenders and over a third, but (nitpick alert) the throw was slightly behind the slot receiver and the place to miss was definitely inside given the RCB closing from his near sideline zone responsibility. Wentz is not shy about forcing a ball into coverage... which the body count of three converging defenders tells me was the "teeth" in this play. That worked at the FCS level, but NFL??? Only the single high was in position to close on the TE.

Totally agree with your point that even All-Pros miss reads. We saw P. Manning do it in CLE this past year. But we don't see them do it repeatedly into the same look.

Check out the first "footwork play" for Wentz in the article I linked above. Same D... same progression, but this time CW locked onto his first progression and threw incomplete in his direction while two other receivers put the single-high in a terrible bind. I think either may have been a TD, but am certain the top of these two (again the TE IIRC) was an easy 6.

What I need to do is watch that game's cut-up in its entirety and see how any other throws against the same D fared. Hard for me to judge processing speed when I question the ultimate decision.

TexasAg1969

From Johnny Football to "Kid Carson". I like the ring of it Tour. It's so.................................Brownsian. Better than #20 whatever I suppose. LOL!