Benjamin to sign.....Mack out then in ?
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I didnt say that by us picking him, we'd suddenly have a great D...thats a lame premise and no QB would do that for our team....its only a piece of the puzzle........I said he'd be a better QB than Johnny was/is....and its pretty clear that he is....
I see no reason that he'd have been better than Josh McCown given the same circumstances.I didnt say that by us picking him, we'd suddenly have a great D...thats a lame premise and no QB would do that for our team....its only a piece of the puzzle........I said he'd be a better QB than Johnny was/is....and its pretty clear that he is....
Especially if Josh had Adrian Peterson in the backfield.
Or that it would have made any difference to the WL list.
WSS
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Id venture to say we wouldnt have even needed Josh McCown, because Bridgewater would've beaten out Brian Hoyer the year before and, unlike with Johnny, we wouldnt have had the same needs in early 2015 due our our rokkie QB being in rehab and absolutely terrible on the field....and he looked pretty good in Minnesota without Peterson in 2014, considering he was first runner up for rookie of the year and in the playoff this year....Vikes went from 5 wins, to 7 wins to 11 wins.....so, argue away, as if picking Johnny is was just as good as picking Bridgewater would have been....
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Id venture to say we wouldnt have even needed Josh McCown, because Bridgewater would've beaten out Brian Hoyer the year before and, unlike with Johnny, we wouldnt have had the same needs in early 2015 due our our rokkie QB being in rehab and absolutely terrible on the field....and he looked pretty good in Minnesota without Peterson in 2014, considering he was first runner up for rookie of the year and in the playoff this year....Vikes went from 5 wins, to 7 wins to 11 wins.....so, argue away, as if picking Johnny is was just as good as picking Bridgewater would have been....
Id venture to say we wouldnt have even needed Josh McCown, because Bridgewater would've beaten out Brian Hoyer the year before and, unlike with Johnny, we wouldnt have had the same needs in early 2015 due our our rokkie QB being in rehab and absolutely terrible on the field....and he looked pretty good in Minnesota without Peterson in 2014, considering he was first runner up for rookie of the year and in the playoff this year....Vikes went from 5 wins, to 7 wins to 11 wins.....so, argue away, as if picking Johnny is was just as good as picking Bridgewater would have been....
Dude you're obsessed with Johnny. That ain't the point that never was.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
ha!...obsessed?.....I think the discussion was about the report and where we would be had we followed it....Johnny is the unfortunate by product of not doing that....
I only mentioned Johnny, because he was the alternative to Bridgewater(who Ive been talking about and you keep shooting down) and because you suggest that picking Bridgewater wouldnt have been a better move because 1) our defense would still suck....or 2) we still wouldnt have won more games(which I doubt).....or 3)McCown might have beaten him out...???
And, now its because Im obsesses?....
You seem to be the one obsessed with protecting him from us baddies and acting as if he's an angel and perfectly fine draft pick, who just wants to have a lil fun and is getting a raw deal....
Much to your chagrin, I guess....people who are obsessed with football(me) and love their team(me) happen to notice when their first round pick is a complete douche and a loser(especially when we saw it from day one)....its also a topic of discussion nation wide, as a matter of fact....so, yeah I talk about it.....surprise surprise....
Ive talked about plenty of other bad picks too....you just haven't noticed cause they're not your boy....
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Id venture to say we wouldnt have even needed Josh McCown, because Bridgewater would've beaten out Brian Hoyer the year before and, unlike with Johnny, we wouldnt have had the same needs in early 2015 due our our rokkie QB being in rehab and absolutely terrible on the field....and he looked pretty good in Minnesota without Peterson in 2014, considering he was first runner up for rookie of the year and in the playoff this year....Vikes went from 5 wins, to 7 wins to 11 wins.....so, argue away, as if picking Johnny is was just as good as picking Bridgewater would have been....
Dude you're obsessed with Johnny. That ain't the point that never was.
WSS
That ain't the point that never was.
Re read the comments again........it's exactly the point....
I see no reason that he'd have been better than Josh McCown given the same circumstances.
Especially if Josh had Adrian Peterson in the backfield.
Or that it would have made any difference to the WL list.
WSS
Id venture to say we wouldnt have even needed Josh McCown, because Bridgewater would've beaten out Brian Hoyer the year before and, unlike with Johnny, we wouldnt have had the same needs in early 2015 due our our rokkie QB being in rehab and absolutely terrible on the field....and he looked pretty good in Minnesota without Peterson in 2014, considering he was first runner up for rookie of the year and in the playoff this year....Vikes went from 5 wins, to 7 wins to 11 wins.....so, argue away, as if picking Johnny is was just as good as picking Bridgewater would have been....
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So what if we drafted Derek Carr, Blake Bortles or Jimmy Garoppolo?
Would anyone still be bitching about that stupid report?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
So what if we drafted Derek Carr, Blake Bortles or Jimmy Garoppolo?
Would anyone still be bitching about that stupid report?
WSS
So what if we drafted Derek Carr, Blake Bortles or Jimmy Garoppolo?
Would anyone still be bitching about that stupid report?
WSS
No one knows what exactly the report said. Word only got out that with the 22nd pick, Bridgewater was considered to be the best available player/QB. For all we know it could have said that the Browns should have picked Thurman Thomas in the top 10. No one will ever know. It could very well have said that Bortles was the best QB but that he wasn't available for the first Browns pick.
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So what if we drafted Derek Carr, Blake Bortles or Jimmy Garoppolo?
Would anyone still be bitching about that stupid report?
WSS
So what if we drafted Derek Carr, Blake Bortles or Jimmy Garoppolo?
Would anyone still be bitching about that stupid report?
WSS
I doubt it, because we'd have a quarterback now.....
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OK-then why hasn't analytics and common sense kept Benjamin when we know this is a weak FA and draft when to comes to WR? The question is for everyone, not just you Mud.
You are speaking as if the team has ultimate authority on the issue. Every FA this year knows their is a ton of money to be had especially after the salary cap increase. Keeping Benjamin requires Benjamin wanting to be kept, and he'll only stay in Cleveland if Cleveland overpays for him. And if a guy is good enough to overpay for, he's good enough to franchise tag, and Benjamin is a #3 wide receiver on any other team in this league. He's not worth a tag, and he's not worth overpaying for.
Common sense also suggests that Hue Jackson has a pretty good chance attracting Marvin Jones and/or Mohammed Sanu to Cleveland. I'm pretty sure we'll have Josh Gordon back, too. Would it be nice to keep Benjamin? Sure. Is he a must-keep, no way. I'd much rather the effort is expended on retaining Gipson, Mack, or Schwartz.
You are speaking as if the team has ultimate authority on the issue. Every FA this year knows their is a ton of money to be had especially after the salary cap increase. Keeping Benjamin requires Benjamin wanting to be kept, and he'll only stay in Cleveland if Cleveland overpays for him. And if a guy is good enough to overpay for, he's good enough to franchise tag, and Benjamin is a #3 wide receiver on any other team in this league. He's not worth a tag, and he's not worth overpaying for.
Common sense also suggests that Hue Jackson has a pretty good chance attracting Marvin Jones and/or Mohammed Sanu to Cleveland. I'm pretty sure we'll have Josh Gordon back, too. Would it be nice to keep Benjamin? Sure. Is he a must-keep, no way. I'd much rather the effort is expended on retaining Gipson, Mack, or Schwartz.
Exactly. Flugels was dancing around my question of- Exactly how much do you think Benjamin is worth? Not, gee, let's keep our homegrown talent. Of course not franchise tag for at best a #2 wr. Not Emmanuel Sanders $5 million a year either in my book. BTW, looking at Sprortrac, Both Sanu and Marvin Jones were making peanuts this past year for the Bengals. Upgrade or downgrade form Benji? You can bet Hue has a pretty good idea. .
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I think you're missing the point of the report....it wasnt intented to predict who would be the best quarterback...it was to predict the least likely to fail....big difference...
OK-then why hasn't analytics and common sense kept Benjamin when we know this is a weak FA and draft when to comes to WR? The question is for everyone, not just you Mud.
OK-then why hasn't analytics and common sense kept Benjamin when we know this is a weak FA and draft when to comes to WR? The question is for everyone, not just you Mud.
We cannot continue to roll our FO period. Jimmy at bye week. Boots Farmer, puts Sashi in then, even as interim GM. We may not be here with Gipson, Schwartz & Benji. That was the time to get them re signed. Mack, no way thanks to Farmer genius idea of offer sheet leading to a great opt out clause contract. We have been drafting them, developing them & no FO has had enough sense since Ward & Skrine to say "Hey we need to lock him up" before end of season. Yes, they all want to play for winners but look at Denver $$ (they not going there for $$) We have always got the cap, we had some talent, We just need the talent in the FO & Jimmy to want to Win with what we can build on & pay them to stay..
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You are speaking as if the team has ultimate authority on the issue. Every FA this year knows their is a ton of money to be had especially after the salary cap increase. Keeping Benjamin requires Benjamin wanting to be kept, and he'll only stay in Cleveland if Cleveland overpays for him. And if a guy is good enough to overpay for, he's good enough to franchise tag, and Benjamin is a #3 wide receiver on any other team in this league. He's not worth a tag, and he's not worth overpaying for.
Common sense also suggests that Hue Jackson has a pretty good chance attracting Marvin Jones and/or Mohammed Sanu to Cleveland. I'm pretty sure we'll have Josh Gordon back, too. Would it be nice to keep Benjamin? Sure. Is he a must-keep, no way. I'd much rather the effort is expended on retaining Gipson, Mack, or Schwartz.
Exactly. Flugels was dancing around my question of- Exactly how much do you think Benjamin is worth? Not, gee, let's keep our homegrown talent. Of course not franchise tag for at best a #2 wr. Not Emmanuel Sanders $5 million a year either in my book. BTW, looking at Sprortrac, Both Sanu and Marvin Jones were making peanuts this past year for the Bengals. Upgrade or downgrade form Benji? You can bet Hue has a pretty good idea. .
Exactly. Flugels was dancing around my question of- Exactly how much do you think Benjamin is worth? Not, gee, let's keep our homegrown talent. Of course not franchise tag for at best a #2 wr. Not Emmanuel Sanders $5 million a year either in my book. BTW, looking at Sprortrac, Both Sanu and Marvin Jones were making peanuts this past year for the Bengals. Upgrade or downgrade form Benji? You can bet Hue has a pretty good idea. .
I think he's worth keeping as I've stated so many times. Let's start by understanding this subject heading we're in and the other one we've disagreed in about our cap space of over 42 million $. It never looked like he needed to be franchise tagged; and it sounded like close to being signed ended in a nitpick barrier to signing him. I never got the financials to put a specific money value to it. We've never even come close to being in cap trouble especially now that there's a rookie salary cap tag teaming our tradition of keepers drafted so I give this how much a big fat DILLIGAF (Do I Look Like I Give A Flock?).
My repetitive take on Benjamin is easy and it shouldn't hurt your feelings as much as it has Larry. For a franchise that has not had to pay any of its draftees a #1 WR salary and throughout 2015 (in a world of what have you done for me lately), why not pay Benjamin a good salary someone else will pay him anyway if we were as close to his yes tag as the subject heading implies? We've done way worse with free agency such as guaranteeing 9 million $ to a WR that played his last good football in 2011. Are you going to word surgery this into Flugel thinks Benjamin is way better than Antonio Brown? For the record I don't.
If we're going to hear we have to build program continuity through the draft - why not KEEP our current success stories when they're beginning to play their best football? Cleveland invested 3-4 years (despite endless turnover w/ QBs,HCs, OCs and FO) for this 4th round draft pick to become just as productive as a WR as he's been in the return game. Now that he is a better WR, his 4.3 speed helps open up underneath routes for teammates as well as seams for the TE (who played the best football of his career as well). Is it Benjamin's fault he had to be our best WR in 2015? No.
Building through the draft is important but you have to be GOOD at it while the Cleveland Browns have been awful at it. What WRs have we drafted that were good enough to make the team in 2013, 2014 and 2015? Understanding that, we don't have the following draftees rallying around the loss of an Emmanuel Sanders to free agency: Antonio Brown, Markus Wheaton, Martavis Bryant, and Sammie Coates. Another important variable to that is to understand how many of those guys joined that team without a 1st round contract/salary (2 of them before the current structure w/a rookie salary cap). If we had been drafting other WRs worth keeping in 2013, 2014 and 2015 - I wouldn't find it nearly as important to retain Travis at this time. Seriously, I'd be okay with it if I didn't have to take inventory of what is in the WR Corps today.
So, where are you? Cleveland is going all in on free agency at WR this year (with 2 guys Sanu and Jones) right after we let a 4th round WR depart for free agency and not too long after press conferences revealed we won't be making any splash in free agency. Makes perfect sense coming from a guy calling me out about how much $ we can afford to part with. And you'll be excited we have Sanu replacing Benjamin? Part of what makes guys like Jones and Sanu seem attractive right now is their beneficiary status from opponents' match-up priorities to guys like AJ Green, Eiffert, and Bernard considerably easing their match-ups/attention. Meanwhile, Benjamin was often drawing the #1 corner or a corner plus Safety over the top in 2015 as our guy that had never even been asked to be our #2 WR all the while he was here before 2015. I like to think he was a pleasant surprise especially considering how many here even had him making our team in 2015 prior to training camp. If your reliable football messiah ever decides to show up and be a #1 WR for all 16 weeks for the very first time as a vet - one would have to think the sum of Gordon + Barnidge + Duke could give us an even better version of Benjamin than 2015. He'd have easier match-ups than he had in 2015 as our substitute #1 producer at WR. Keeping Benjamin to go with your most reliable hero of all time at WR also means we don't have to draft Doctson at #32 in lieu of going defense there. We can add a WR in round 4 or 5 with the understanding we're receiving 3 mid round comp/supplemental picks on top of what we are scheduled for. Seems like a formula for less growing pains in the passing tree around a rookie QB or just continuity for McCown when/if the rookie isn't ready.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
How do you think we should address the non-OL blocking issue from this past season?
Current Roster
TE: Barnidge, Bibbs, Telfer
FB/HB: Johnson [likely cut]
The problem is that none of the TE have proven to be worthwhile blockers, and Johnson isn't an NFL caliber athlete. Barnidge is more suited for the "look-out block" ["McCown, look out! I got beat again!] than anything substantive.
Are Bibbs or Telfer ready to do something useful? Telfer's draft profile asserts blocking ability.. it's surprising he didn't earn PT. Bibbs is a pure pass-catcher.
Perhaps one of the FB's [Gronk's brother from KSU?] would be worth a late-round pick? I'd think it would depend on the scheme Hue wants: if they want 2 TE's and no FB then draft a blocking TE instead.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
OK-then why hasn't analytics and common sense kept Benjamin when we know this is a weak FA and draft when to comes to WR? The question is for everyone, not just you Mud.
You are speaking as if the team has ultimate authority on the issue. Every FA this year knows their is a ton of money to be had especially after the salary cap increase. Keeping Benjamin requires Benjamin wanting to be kept, and he'll only stay in Cleveland if Cleveland overpays for him. And if a guy is good enough to overpay for, he's good enough to franchise tag, and Benjamin is a #3 wide receiver on any other team in this league. He's not worth a tag, and he's not worth overpaying for.
Common sense also suggests that Hue Jackson has a pretty good chance attracting Marvin Jones and/or Mohammed Sanu to Cleveland. I'm pretty sure we'll have Josh Gordon back, too. Would it be nice to keep Benjamin? Sure. Is he a must-keep, no way. I'd much rather the effort is expended on retaining Gipson, Mack, or Schwartz.
You are speaking as if the team has ultimate authority on the issue. Every FA this year knows their is a ton of money to be had especially after the salary cap increase. Keeping Benjamin requires Benjamin wanting to be kept,
Common sense also suggests that Hue Jackson has a pretty good chance attracting Marvin Jones and/or Mohammed Sanu to Cleveland. I'm pretty sure we'll have Josh Gordon back, too. Would it be nice to keep Benjamin? Sure. Is he a must-keep, no way. I'd much rather the effort is expended on retaining Gipson, Mack, or Schwartz.
So why are you correcting him like you are the authority? Doesn't that also mean the Mack we already gave a dream contract to has to want to stay? And is he? I'd like to keep Schwartz too now that he is playing his best football every bit as I'd like to keep Benjamin. But does he want to stay?
I already covered the Jones and Sanu part in my reply to Hoorta 1 post up.
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Exactly. Flugels was dancing around my question of- Exactly how much do you think Benjamin is worth? Not, gee, let's keep our homegrown talent. Of course not franchise tag for at best a #2 wr. Not Emmanuel Sanders $5 million a year either in my book. BTW, looking at Sprortrac, Both Sanu and Marvin Jones were making peanuts this past year for the Bengals. Upgrade or downgrade form Benji? You can bet Hue has a pretty good idea. .
I think he's worth keeping as I've stated so many times. Let's start by understanding this subject heading we're in and the other one we've disagreed in about our cap space of over 42 million $. It never looked like he needed to be franchise tagged; and it sounded like close to being signed ended in a nitpick barrier to signing him. I never got the financials to put a specific money value to it. We've never even come close to being in cap trouble especially now that there's a rookie salary cap tag teaming our tradition of keepers drafted so I give this how much a big fat DILLIGAF (Do I Look Like I Give A Flock?).
My repetitive take on Benjamin is easy and it shouldn't hurt your feelings as much as it has Larry. For a franchise that has not had to pay any of its draftees a #1 WR salary and throughout 2015 (in a world of what have you done for me lately), why not pay Benjamin a good salary someone else will pay him anyway if we were as close to his yes tag as the subject heading implies? We've done way worse with free agency such as guaranteeing 9 million $ to a WR that played his last good football in 2011. Are you going to word surgery this into Flugel thinks Benjamin is way better than Antonio Brown? For the record I don't.
If we're going to hear we have to build program continuity through the draft - why not KEEP our current success stories when they're beginning to play their best football? Cleveland invested 3-4 years (despite endless turnover w/ QBs,HCs, OCs and FO) for this 4th round draft pick to become just as productive as a WR as he's been in the return game. Now that he is a better WR, his 4.3 speed helps open up underneath routes for teammates as well as seams for the TE (who played the best football of his career as well). Is it Benjamin's fault he had to be our best WR in 2015? No.
Building through the draft is important but you have to be GOOD at it while the Cleveland Browns have been awful at it. What WRs have we drafted that were good enough to make the team in 2013, 2014 and 2015? Understanding that, we don't have the following draftees rallying around the loss of an Emmanuel Sanders to free agency: Antonio Brown, Markus Wheaton, Martavis Bryant, and Sammie Coates. Another important variable to that is to understand how many of those guys joined that team without a 1st round contract/salary (2 of them before the current structure w/a rookie salary cap). If we had been drafting other WRs worth keeping in 2013, 2014 and 2015 - I wouldn't find it nearly as important to retain Travis at this time. Seriously, I'd be okay with it if I didn't have to take inventory of what is in the WR Corps today.
So, where are you? Cleveland is going all in on free agency at WR this year (with 2 guys Sanu and Jones) right after we let a 4th round WR depart for free agency and not too long after press conferences revealed we won't be making any splash in free agency. Makes perfect sense coming from a guy calling me out about how much $ we can afford to part with. And you'll be excited we have Sanu replacing Benjamin? Part of what makes guys like Jones and Sanu seem attractive right now is their beneficiary status from opponents' match-up priorities to guys like AJ Green, Eiffert, and Bernard considerably easing their match-ups/attention. Meanwhile, Benjamin was often drawing the #1 corner or a corner plus Safety over the top in 2015 as our guy that had never even been asked to be our #2 WR all the while he was here before 2015. I like to think he was a pleasant surprise especially considering how many here even had him making our team in 2015 prior to training camp. If your reliable football messiah ever decides to show up and be a #1 WR for all 16 weeks for the very first time as a vet - one would have to think the sum of Gordon + Barnidge + Duke could give us an even better version of Benjamin than 2015. He'd have easier match-ups than he had in 2015 as our substitute #1 producer at WR. Keeping Benjamin to go with your most reliable hero of all time at WR also means we don't have to draft Doctson at #32 in lieu of going defense there. We can add a WR in round 4 or 5 with the understanding we're receiving 3 mid round comp/supplemental picks on top of what we are scheduled for. Seems like a formula for less growing pains in the passing tree around a rookie QB or just continuity for McCown when/if the rookie isn't ready.
I think he's worth keeping as I've stated so many times. Let's start by understanding this subject heading we're in and the other one we've disagreed in about our cap space of over 42 million $. It never looked like he needed to be franchise tagged; and it sounded like close to being signed ended in a nitpick barrier to signing him. I never got the financials to put a specific money value to it. We've never even come close to being in cap trouble especially now that there's a rookie salary cap tag teaming our tradition of keepers drafted so I give this how much a big fat DILLIGAF (Do I Look Like I Give A Flock?).
My repetitive take on Benjamin is easy and it shouldn't hurt your feelings as much as it has Larry. For a franchise that has not had to pay any of its draftees a #1 WR salary and throughout 2015 (in a world of what have you done for me lately), why not pay Benjamin a good salary someone else will pay him anyway if we were as close to his yes tag as the subject heading implies? We've done way worse with free agency such as guaranteeing 9 million $ to a WR that played his last good football in 2011. Are you going to word surgery this into Flugel thinks Benjamin is way better than Antonio Brown? For the record I don't.
If we're going to hear we have to build program continuity through the draft - why not KEEP our current success stories when they're beginning to play their best football? Cleveland invested 3-4 years (despite endless turnover w/ QBs,HCs, OCs and FO) for this 4th round draft pick to become just as productive as a WR as he's been in the return game. Now that he is a better WR, his 4.3 speed helps open up underneath routes for teammates as well as seams for the TE (who played the best football of his career as well). Is it Benjamin's fault he had to be our best WR in 2015? No.
Building through the draft is important but you have to be GOOD at it while the Cleveland Browns have been awful at it. What WRs have we drafted that were good enough to make the team in 2013, 2014 and 2015? Understanding that, we don't have the following draftees rallying around the loss of an Emmanuel Sanders to free agency: Antonio Brown, Markus Wheaton, Martavis Bryant, and Sammie Coates. Another important variable to that is to understand how many of those guys joined that team without a 1st round contract/salary (2 of them before the current structure w/a rookie salary cap). If we had been drafting other WRs worth keeping in 2013, 2014 and 2015 - I wouldn't find it nearly as important to retain Travis at this time. Seriously, I'd be okay with it if I didn't have to take inventory of what is in the WR Corps today.
So, where are you? Cleveland is going all in on free agency at WR this year (with 2 guys Sanu and Jones) right after we let a 4th round WR depart for free agency and not too long after press conferences revealed we won't be making any splash in free agency. Makes perfect sense coming from a guy calling me out about how much $ we can afford to part with. And you'll be excited we have Sanu replacing Benjamin? Part of what makes guys like Jones and Sanu seem attractive right now is their beneficiary status from opponents' match-up priorities to guys like AJ Green, Eiffert, and Bernard considerably easing their match-ups/attention. Meanwhile, Benjamin was often drawing the #1 corner or a corner plus Safety over the top in 2015 as our guy that had never even been asked to be our #2 WR all the while he was here before 2015. I like to think he was a pleasant surprise especially considering how many here even had him making our team in 2015 prior to training camp. If your reliable football messiah ever decides to show up and be a #1 WR for all 16 weeks for the very first time as a vet - one would have to think the sum of Gordon + Barnidge + Duke could give us an even better version of Benjamin than 2015. He'd have easier match-ups than he had in 2015 as our substitute #1 producer at WR. Keeping Benjamin to go with your most reliable hero of all time at WR also means we don't have to draft Doctson at #32 in lieu of going defense there. We can add a WR in round 4 or 5 with the understanding we're receiving 3 mid round comp/supplemental picks on top of what we are scheduled for. Seems like a formula for less growing pains in the passing tree around a rookie QB or just continuity for McCown when/if the rookie isn't ready.
You didn't need to write a novel Tom. I'd like to keep Benjamin too, FWIW. If Travis wants to shop around, and come back with a number for the Browns to match- that's his prerogative. If it happens to be a stupid number, we'll see if the Browns want to eat up the cap paying him. Oh and you didn't answer the question- again, so I'll answer it for you. I pay Travis the lower end of what a #2 WR is making in the NFL. Happy now?
Since he opted for FA, he (or his agent) obviously think he's worth more than what the Browns were offering.
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How do you think we should address the non-OL blocking issue from this past season?
Current Roster
TE: Barnidge, Bibbs, Telfer
FB/HB: Johnson [likely cut]
The problem is that none of the TE have proven to be worthwhile blockers, and Johnson isn't an NFL caliber athlete. Barnidge is more suited for the "look-out block" ["McCown, look out! I got beat again!] than anything substantive.
Are Bibbs or Telfer ready to do something useful? Telfer's draft profile asserts blocking ability.. it's surprising he didn't earn PT. Bibbs is a pure pass-catcher.
Perhaps one of the FB's [Gronk's brother from KSU?] would be worth a late-round pick? I'd think it would depend on the scheme Hue wants: if they want 2 TE's and no FB then draft a blocking TE instead.
Bibbs is a pure pass-catcher.
But a willing blocker...
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I think he's worth keeping as I've stated so many times. Let's start by understanding this subject heading we're in and the other one we've disagreed in about our cap space of over 42 million $. It never looked like he needed to be franchise tagged; and it sounded like close to being signed ended in a nitpick barrier to signing him. I never got the financials to put a specific money value to it. We've never even come close to being in cap trouble especially now that there's a rookie salary cap tag teaming our tradition of keepers drafted so I give this how much a big fat DILLIGAF (Do I Look Like I Give A Flock?).
My repetitive take on Benjamin is easy and it shouldn't hurt your feelings as much as it has Larry. For a franchise that has not had to pay any of its draftees a #1 WR salary and throughout 2015 (in a world of what have you done for me lately), why not pay Benjamin a good salary someone else will pay him anyway if we were as close to his yes tag as the subject heading implies? We've done way worse with free agency such as guaranteeing 9 million $ to a WR that played his last good football in 2011. Are you going to word surgery this into Flugel thinks Benjamin is way better than Antonio Brown? For the record I don't.
If we're going to hear we have to build program continuity through the draft - why not KEEP our current success stories when they're beginning to play their best football? Cleveland invested 3-4 years (despite endless turnover w/ QBs,HCs, OCs and FO) for this 4th round draft pick to become just as productive as a WR as he's been in the return game. Now that he is a better WR, his 4.3 speed helps open up underneath routes for teammates as well as seams for the TE (who played the best football of his career as well). Is it Benjamin's fault he had to be our best WR in 2015? No.
Building through the draft is important but you have to be GOOD at it while the Cleveland Browns have been awful at it. What WRs have we drafted that were good enough to make the team in 2013, 2014 and 2015? Understanding that, we don't have the following draftees rallying around the loss of an Emmanuel Sanders to free agency: Antonio Brown, Markus Wheaton, Martavis Bryant, and Sammie Coates. Another important variable to that is to understand how many of those guys joined that team without a 1st round contract/salary (2 of them before the current structure w/a rookie salary cap). If we had been drafting other WRs worth keeping in 2013, 2014 and 2015 - I wouldn't find it nearly as important to retain Travis at this time. Seriously, I'd be okay with it if I didn't have to take inventory of what is in the WR Corps today.
So, where are you? Cleveland is going all in on free agency at WR this year (with 2 guys Sanu and Jones) right after we let a 4th round WR depart for free agency and not too long after press conferences revealed we won't be making any splash in free agency. Makes perfect sense coming from a guy calling me out about how much $ we can afford to part with. And you'll be excited we have Sanu replacing Benjamin? Part of what makes guys like Jones and Sanu seem attractive right now is their beneficiary status from opponents' match-up priorities to guys like AJ Green, Eiffert, and Bernard considerably easing their match-ups/attention. Meanwhile, Benjamin was often drawing the #1 corner or a corner plus Safety over the top in 2015 as our guy that had never even been asked to be our #2 WR all the while he was here before 2015. I like to think he was a pleasant surprise especially considering how many here even had him making our team in 2015 prior to training camp. If your reliable football messiah ever decides to show up and be a #1 WR for all 16 weeks for the very first time as a vet - one would have to think the sum of Gordon + Barnidge + Duke could give us an even better version of Benjamin than 2015. He'd have easier match-ups than he had in 2015 as our substitute #1 producer at WR. Keeping Benjamin to go with your most reliable hero of all time at WR also means we don't have to draft Doctson at #32 in lieu of going defense there. We can add a WR in round 4 or 5 with the understanding we're receiving 3 mid round comp/supplemental picks on top of what we are scheduled for. Seems like a formula for less growing pains in the passing tree around a rookie QB or just continuity for McCown when/if the rookie isn't ready.
You didn't need to write a novel Tom. I'd like to keep Benjamin too, FWIW. If Travis wants to shop around, and come back with a number for the Browns to match- that's his prerogative. If it happens to be a stupid number, we'll see if the Browns want to eat up the cap paying him. Oh and you didn't answer the question- again, so I'll answer it for you. I pay Travis the lower end of what a #2 WR is making in the NFL. Happy now?
Since he opted for FA, he (or his agent) obviously think he's worth more than what the Browns were offering.
You didn't need to write a novel Tom. I'd like to keep Benjamin too, FWIW. ......I pay Travis the lower end of what a #2 WR is making in the NFL.
Since he oped for FA, he (or his agent) obviously think he's worth more than what the Browns were offering.
Im with you Hoorta....I dont really see anybody here saying we should get rid of Benji....at all....
Though I see a ton of people saying not to overpay in order to keep him...and, by definition, overpaying is overpaying....
I cant believe the Browns plan to use Benji as their #1, so he's gonna play #2 or slot....and we are already contractually committed to Hartline and Hawkins in those roles.....plus we have Gabriel, who is pretty comparable to Benji stat wise.....so, does a team who has WAY overpaid in the past for marginal talent do it again?....especially for a second tier role that already has 3 other comparable players?....
So....yeah....lets keep him if he's willing to play for fair value.....and if he thinks he's worth All pro money, then let him go get it elsewhere....
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You didn't need to write a novel Tom. I'd like to keep Benjamin too, FWIW. ......I pay Travis the lower end of what a #2 WR is making in the NFL.
Since he oped for FA, he (or his agent) obviously think he's worth more than what the Browns were offering.
Im with you Hoorta....I dont really see anybody here saying we should get rid of Benji....at all....
Though I see a ton of people saying not to overpay in order to keep him...and, by definition, overpaying is overpaying....
I cant believe the Browns plan to use Benji as their #1, so he's gonna play #2 or slot....and we are already contractually committed to Hartline and Hawkins in those roles.....plus we have Gabriel, who is pretty comparable to Benji stat wise.....so, does a team who has WAY overpaid in the past for marginal talent do it again?....especially for a second tier role that already has 3 other comparable players?....
So....yeah....lets keep him if he's willing to play for fair value.....and if he thinks he's worth All pro money, then let him go get it elsewhere....
Though I see a ton of people saying not to overpay in order to keep him...and, by definition, overpaying is overpaying....
I cant believe the Browns plan to use Benji as their #1, so he's gonna play #2 or slot....and we are already contractually committed to Hartline and Hawkins in those roles.....plus we have Gabriel, who is pretty comparable to Benji stat wise.....so, does a team who has WAY overpaid in the past for marginal talent do it again?....especially for a second tier role that already has 3 other comparable players?....
So....yeah....lets keep him if he's willing to play for fair value.....and if he thinks he's worth All pro money, then let him go get it elsewhere....
Overpay? Here's what I see as overpaid and feel free to interject where you see me getting unfair here:
Andrew Hawkins 27 rec 276 yds 10.2 ypc 0 TD 10 1st downs - no wonder why he's already sucking up to Hue with that salary we're flushing
Brian Hartline 46 rec 523 yds 11.4 ypc 2 TD 30 1st downs - for the free agent $ Cleveland threw at this phased out Dolphin
Dwayne Bowe 5 rec 53 yds 10.6 ypc 0 TD 3 1st downs - for a guaranteed 9 million $ in 2015
Here's our 2015 comparison of Gabriel and Benjamin:
Gabriel 28 rec 241 yds 8.6 ypc 0 TD 11 1st downs
Benjamin 68 rec 966 yds 14.2 ypc 5 TD 39 1st downs
So far, Benji has led our WR Corps for 2 consecutive years in TD receptions and yard per catch while Gabriel has sum of 1 TD. In 2015, he also led our WR Corps in receptions, yards and 1st downs. In 2015, Gabriel had 4 dropped passes - Benjamin dropped 3. Seems like we should be comparing Gabriel to Hawkins rather than somebody that can put points on the board or get us first downs or break tackles from grass blades.
This time last year and prior to training camp, did many people even have Benji making the team? So if he ended up outperforming all of our WRs inclusive of overpaid FAs plus Gabriel to the extent of being our #1 WR as well as his value as a return man - is it Benjamin that's being ridiculous about what he's asking from the Browns or Hawkins, Hartline and Bowe? Let's make sure we understand what guys we're actually overpaying for best football in the rear view mirror up against the one starting to play his/our best football in the WR Corps. So, in all the worry about Benjamin only being a #2 WR or slot receiver at best, we've made sure we lost sight that not only is he highly regarded in this league as a return guy but he finished 2015 as the #1 WR for the Cleveland Browns while making way less money than Hawkins, Hartline and Bowe.
I have no problem saying he deserves to earn more money from THIS franchise than any one of free agent WRs here wasting cap space far beyond their ability on a team that needs to draft better for the sake of program continuity. Sounds like we're about to part with 3 draftees that played some of their very best football for this franchise in 2015: Mack, Schwartz and Benji. Just out of curiosity, is Hartline a #1 WR? Is Bowe a #1 WR? Is Hawkins a #1 WR? Those are the guys you should be asking that question about when we're on the verge losing 3 currently productive draftees we should be retaining. More specifically, the overpaid FA WRs are the stinky shit clogging this toilet.
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Though I see a ton of people saying not to overpay in order to keep him...and, by definition, overpaying is overpaying....
I cant believe the Browns plan to use Benji as their #1, so he's gonna play #2 or slot....and we are already contractually committed to Hartline and Hawkins in those roles.....plus we have Gabriel, who is pretty comparable to Benji stat wise.....so, does a team who has WAY overpaid in the past for marginal talent do it again?....especially for a second tier role that already has 3 other comparable players?....
So....yeah....lets keep him if he's willing to play for fair value.....and if he thinks he's worth All pro money, then let him go get it elsewhere....
Overpay? Here's what I see as overpaid and feel free to interject where you see me getting unfair here:
Andrew Hawkins 27 rec 276 yds 10.2 ypc 0 TD 10 1st downs - no wonder why he's already sucking up to Hue with that salary we're flushing
Brian Hartline 46 rec 523 yds 11.4 ypc 2 TD 30 1st downs - for the free agent $ Cleveland threw at this phased out Dolphin
Dwayne Bowe 5 rec 53 yds 10.6 ypc 0 TD 3 1st downs - for a guaranteed 9 million $ in 2015
Here's our 2015 comparison of Gabriel and Benjamin:
Gabriel 28 rec 241 yds 8.6 ypc 0 TD 11 1st downs
Benjamin 68 rec 966 yds 14.2 ypc 5 TD 39 1st downs
So far, Benji has led our WR Corps for 2 consecutive years in TD receptions and yard per catch while Gabriel has sum of 1 TD. In 2015, he also led our WR Corps in receptions, yards and 1st downs. In 2015, Gabriel had 4 dropped passes - Benjamin dropped 3. Seems like we should be comparing Gabriel to Hawkins rather than somebody that can put points on the board or get us first downs or break tackles from grass blades.
This time last year and prior to training camp, did many people even have Benji making the team? So if he ended up outperforming all of our WRs inclusive of overpaid FAs plus Gabriel to the extent of being our #1 WR as well as his value as a return man - is it Benjamin that's being ridiculous about what he's asking from the Browns or Hawkins, Hartline and Bowe? Let's make sure we understand what guys we're actually overpaying for best football in the rear view mirror up against the one starting to play his/our best football in the WR Corps. So, in all the worry about Benjamin only being a #2 WR or slot receiver at best, we've made sure we lost sight that not only is he highly regarded in this league as a return guy but he finished 2015 as the #1 WR for the Cleveland Browns while making way less money than Hawkins, Hartline and Bowe.
I have no problem saying he deserves to earn more money from THIS franchise than any one of free agent WRs here wasting cap space far beyond their ability on a team that needs to draft better for the sake of program continuity. Sounds like we're about to part with 3 draftees that played some of their very best football for this franchise in 2015: Mack, Schwartz and Benji. Just out of curiosity, is Hartline a #1 WR? Is Bowe a #1 WR? Is Hawkins a #1 WR? Those are the guys you should be asking that question about when we're on the verge losing 3 currently productive draftees we should be retaining. More specifically, the overpaid FA WRs are the stinky shit clogging this toilet.
Overpay? Here's what I see as overpaid and feel free to interject where you see me getting unfair here:
I dont think you're being unfair, I just think you're missing the point>>>>...."that is, no one is saying to get rid of him".....<<<< thats what you're missing, yet keep argue as if we are saying to cut him....
we are saying dont OVERPAY him and none of us know what he's asking for.....and, by you listing a bunch of overpaid receivers, it reinforces my statement that we have a history of overpaying people, then eating dirt for the ensuing years....so, like I said above...should we just keep doing that????
His history is 3 bad years and one decent year.....and his best year still has him as a middle of the pack type of player.....I think we are getting so used to bad players, that average talent starts to look too good.....
This time last year and prior to training camp, did you even have Benji making the team?
No, I didnt....which reinforces what Ive been saying....his history suggests that he's not been good and, after 3 years on the roster, a lot of us had him getting cut.....so, one decent year is just that.....Im not gonna get into a huge stats debate, but will say they can be sliced a lot of ways and his stats arent that good....even in his "great" year, which wasn't really that great....he was 35th? in the league?......yeah, he led the team in TD's 2014(with 3...wow)....and only had one TD in the last 13 weeks this past season.....(in fact, deduct the first 2 games from last season and see what his numbers were.....fairly below average, actually)....so, in reality, he had 2 great games to start, then pretty much fell off the wagon...
Sounds like we're about to part with 3 draftees that played some of their very best football for this franchise in 2015: Mack, Schwartz and Benji. . More specifically, the overpaid FA WRs are the stinky shit clogging this toilet.
Im all in on Mack and Schwartz....100%.....why?....because they have a 4 year history of quality play beyond just one season.....So, if you want us to pay Benji Pro-Bowl type money, then what should we pay those 2..... or any other player we tap that actually IS a Pro-bowler?....
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Overpay? Here's what I see as overpaid and feel free to interject where you see me getting unfair here:
I dont think you're being unfair, I just think you're missing the point>>>>...."that is, no one is saying to get rid of him".....<<<< thats what you're missing, yet keep argue as if we are saying to cut him....
we are saying dont OVERPAY him and none of us know what he's asking for.....and, by you listing a bunch of overpaid receivers, it reinforces my statement that we have a history of overpaying people, then eating dirt for the ensuing years....so, like I said above...should we just keep doing that????
His history is 3 bad years and one decent year.....and his best year still has him as a middle of the pack type of player.....I think we are getting so used to bad players, that average talent starts to look too good.....
This time last year and prior to training camp, did you even have Benji making the team?
No, I didnt....which reinforces what Ive been saying....his history suggests that he's not been good and, after 3 years on the roster, a lot of us had him getting cut.....so, one decent year is just that.....Im not gonna get into a huge stats debate, but will say they can be sliced a lot of ways and his stats arent that good....even in his "great" year, which wasn't really that great....he was 35th? in the league?......yeah, he led the team in TD's 2014(with 3...wow)....and only had one TD in the last 13 weeks this past season.....(in fact, deduct the first 2 games from last season and see what his numbers were.....fairly below average, actually)....so, in reality, he had 2 great games to start, then pretty much fell off the wagon...
Sounds like we're about to part with 3 draftees that played some of their very best football for this franchise in 2015: Mack, Schwartz and Benji. . More specifically, the overpaid FA WRs are the stinky shit clogging this toilet.
Im all in on Mack and Schwartz....100%.....why?....because they have a 4 year history of quality play beyond just one season.....So, if you want us to pay Benji Pro-Bowl type money, then what should we pay those 2..... or any other player we tap that actually IS a Pro-bowler?....
Overpay? Here's what I see as overpaid and feel free to interject where you see me getting unfair here:
I dont think you're being unfair, I just think you're missing the point>>>>...."that is, no one is saying to get rid of him".....<<<< thats what you're missing, yet keep argue as if we are saying to cut him....
we are saying dont OVERPAY him and none of us know what he's asking for.....and, by you listing a bunch of overpaid receivers, it reinforces my statement that we have a history of overpaying people, then eating dirt for the ensuing years....so, like I said above...should we just keep doing that????
His history is 3 bad years and one decent year.....and his best year still has him as a middle of the pack type of player.....I think we are getting so used to bad players, that average talent starts to look too good.....
This time last year and prior to training camp, did you even have Benji making the team?
No, I didnt....which reinforces what Ive been saying....his history suggests that he's not been good and, after 3 years on the roster, a lot of us had him getting cut.....so, one decent year is just that.....Im not gonna get into a huge stats debate, but will say they can be sliced a lot of ways and his stats arent that good....even in his "great" year, which wasn't really that great....he was 35th? in the league?......yeah, he led the team in TD's 2014(with 3...wow)....and only had one TD in the last 13 weeks this past season.....(in fact, deduct the first 2 games from last season and see what his numbers were.....fairly below average, actually)....so, in reality, he had 2 great games to start, then pretty much fell off the wagon...
Sounds like we're about to part with 3 draftees that played some of their very best football for this franchise in 2015: Mack, Schwartz and Benji. . More specifically, the overpaid FA WRs are the stinky shit clogging this toilet.
Im all in on Mack and Schwartz....100%.....why?....because they have a 4 year history of quality play beyond just one season.....So, if you want us to pay Benji Pro-Bowl type money, then what should we pay those 2..... or any other player we tap that actually IS a Pro-bowler?....
So now he's asking for Pro Bowl money? Source please?
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