The Pats won 3 SB's around a kicker and an all-time defense.
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Pssshh... Tom Brady
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Greatness is also not necessarily reflected in stats, it's a function of the team as much as anything else.
But we know that average or below QBs can win for a great team. The above examples have shown that.
And, certainly there ARE QBs in the past who have been considered great mainly based on stats: Fouts, Marino, Warren Moon.
...Tony Romo?
But we know that average or below QBs can win for a great team. The above examples have shown that.
And, certainly there ARE QBs in the past who have been considered great mainly based on stats: Fouts, Marino, Warren Moon.
...Tony Romo?
I get that....but do you really think there are only 3 GREAT QB's that didnt win a SB?......and do you really think a lot of HOF QB's would have been "great" on bad teams?....or would they be more like Archie Manning?.....
The 75 Stools had 9 HOFers and 17 All-Pros....dont you think they had something to do with Bradshaws success?.....cause even though he won SB's, he has lousy stats.....and I contend he would've had even lousier stats without all those greats....(and would never have made the hall or even a Pro-bowl on a lousy team)
And, what team really has 9 HOFers???.....Id say none.....and many of those players would not even sniff the HOF if not for being on that team and surrounded by enough excellent players to elevate the play for everyone.....
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But we know that average or below QBs can win for a great team. The above examples have shown that.
And, certainly there ARE QBs in the past who have been considered great mainly based on stats: Fouts, Marino, Warren Moon.
...Tony Romo?
I get that....but do you really think there are only 3 GREAT QB's that didnt win a SB?......and do you really think a lot of HOF QB's would have been "great" on bad teams?....or would they be more like Archie Manning?.....
The 75 Stools had 9 HOFers and 17 All-Pros....dont you think they had something to do with Bradshaws success?.....cause even though he won SB's, he has lousy stats.....and I contend he would've had even lousier stats without all those greats....(and would never have made the hall or even a Pro-bowl on a lousy team)
And, what team really has 9 HOFers???.....Id say none.....and many of those players would not even sniff the HOF if not for being on that team and surrounded by enough excellent players to elevate the play for everyone.....
I get that....but do you really think there are only 3 GREAT QB's that didnt win a SB?
Not sure....name some other great ones in your opinion that did not win a SB.
......and do you really think a lot of HOF QB's would have been "great" on bad teams?....or would they be more like Archie Manning?.....
Very possibly so....I always use the Bradshaw/Phipps scenario. What would it have been like if the picks were switched...and the Steelers got Phipps and the Browns Bradshaw.
The 75 Stools had 9 HOFers and 17 All-Pros....dont you think they had something to do with Bradshaws success?.....cause even though he won SB's, he has lousy stats.....and I contend he would've had even lousier stats without all those greats....(and would never have made the hall or even a Pro-bowl on a lousy team)
Yea, speculation...see above....would Phipps have been the HOFer instead? Oi!
And, what team really has 9 HOFers???
Those Steelers, 60s Packers even have more....50s Browns.
.....Id say none.....and many of those players would not even sniff the HOF if not for being on that team and surrounded by enough excellent players to elevate the play for everyone.....
Symbiosis I guess.
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The answer to the idea of being a great team without an elite QB in today's NFL is easily, easily resolved. Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time (or still are in many cases).
You don't win without the big stakes without a true franchise QB. Of course, a great TEAM wins the Super Bowl and I understand that.
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The answer to the idea of being a great team without an elite QB in today's NFL is easily, easily resolved. Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time (or still are in many cases).
You don't win without the big stakes without a true franchise QB. Of course, a great TEAM wins the Super Bowl and I understand that.
The answer to the idea of being a great team without an elite QB in today's NFL is easily, easily resolved. Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time (or still are in many cases).
You don't win without the big stakes without a true franchise QB. Of course, a great TEAM wins the Super Bowl and I understand that.
I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.
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The answer to the idea of being a great team without an elite QB in today's NFL is easily, easily resolved. Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time (or still are in many cases).
You don't win without the big stakes without a true franchise QB. Of course, a great TEAM wins the Super Bowl and I understand that.
I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.
I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.
Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
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I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.
Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
Well no you can win, ur defense just has to be that much better. Last season manning was beyond awful. You do realize if that if he had been that way his whole career he would never have even played d1 ball. His knowledge of the game was the only thing that kept him in there.
As per ur statement i would also offer you cant win with a bottom tier defense either. Our defense is preposterous. Yes i said preposterous. Means i cant beleive it even exists. We would have been in the playofs two years ago "easily" if we had only had an avg defense
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I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.
Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
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we've tried the 'old' build a great team thing without having a QB since '99 and has gotten us nowhere (and i'm one of those guys that was shouting that was the route to take). how can building a team work when the builders and planners are canned every 2 years?
as i've said in another thread: let hue 'the QB guru' draft us a franchise QB and let that be this regime's legacy for the brown's history and hopefully future before he gets canned.
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wr's. Browns never have good ones that love the game... except for Benjamin, and he
isn't an A.J. Green.
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we've tried the 'old' build a great team thing without having a QB since '99 and has gotten us nowhere (and i'm one of those guys that was shouting that was the route to take). how can building a team work when the builders and planners are canned every 2 years?
as i've said in another thread: let hue 'the QB guru' draft us a franchise QB and let that be this regime's legacy for the brown's history and hopefully future before he gets canned.
we've tried the 'old' build a great team thing without having a QB since '99 and has gotten us nowhere (and i'm one of those guys that was shouting that was the route to take). how can building a team work when the builders and planners are canned every 2 years?
as i've said in another thread: let hue 'the QB guru' draft us a franchise QB and let that be this regime's legacy for the brown's history and hopefully future before he gets canned.
We have drafted 4 QBs in round one......and I don't care that they were lower in round one...they were first rounders. A QB drafted in round one is expected to become a team's franchise QB. So it is bollux to say that we have only gone the "build the team first before getting a QB" routel.
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We have drafted 4 QBs in round one......and I don't care that they were lower in round one...they were first rounders. A QB drafted in round one is expected to become a team's franchise QB. So it is bollux to say that we have only gone the "build the team first before getting a QB" routel.
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well you do have to account for the fact that our last 3 first round QB's were all the second pick we made.....Thomas came ahead of Quinn.....Richardson came ahead of Weeds......Gilbert came ahead of Manziel...
So, in reality, it was team ahead of QB in 3 outta 4 .......and by taking other players first, it's also pretty clear that the Browns weren't sold on any of these guys as a franchise QBs, otherwise they wouldnt have risked losing them by picking other positions first....
So, not really bullox, but actually fact....
I think we just had 2 picks and decided we could risk the second one by throwing caution to the wind on players that we hoped might be good.....(emphasis on the word hoped, as opposed to expected)
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I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.
Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
This is what you said, "Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time".
I was giving you the answer that no, he was not very good compared to his prime and certainly not top 10 at his position.
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You need a franchise QB to win multiple SB's. You can get one with D and a kicker. Getting one is awesome.
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Add the fact that so many QB's are not great until they are on a great team....then suddenly.....
And, as soon as one wins a SB, he gets dubbed as a superstar and future HOFer.....except the couple that everyone mentions, who were obviously no where near that level.....
Add the fact that so many QB's are not great until they are on a great team....then suddenly.....
And, as soon as one wins a SB, he gets dubbed as a superstar and future HOFer.....except the couple that everyone mentions, who were obviously no where near that level.....
I disagree.. teams go as the QB goes...
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Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.
No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either
This is what you said, "Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time".
I was giving you the answer that no, he was not very good compared to his prime and certainly not top 10 at his position.
This is what you said, "Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time".
I was giving you the answer that no, he was not very good compared to his prime and certainly not top 10 at his position.
Eh, we'll just disagree on that. I get where you're going, but I think even a 40 year old Peyton Manning was still top 10-11 in the league last year.
I'd flip this around a little bit, but this is pretty much how I saw it last year:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000524987/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132
You need a franchise QB to win multiple SB's. You can get one with D and a kicker. Getting one is awesome.
Again, name one team who has won the SB since 2003 who didn't have a true franchise QB at the helm (and don't give me that Joe Flacco bullshit like he isn't a franchise dude). Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.
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This is what you said, "Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time".
I was giving you the answer that no, he was not very good compared to his prime and certainly not top 10 at his position.
Eh, we'll just disagree on that. I get where you're going, but I think even a 40 year old Peyton Manning was still top 10-11 in the league last year.
I'd flip this around a little bit, but this is pretty much how I saw it last year:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000524987/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132
You need a franchise QB to win multiple SB's. You can get one with D and a kicker. Getting one is awesome.
Again, name one team who has won the SB since 2003 who didn't have a true franchise QB at the helm (and don't give me that Joe Flacco bullshit like he isn't a franchise dude). Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.
Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.
So now we have Tampa Bay and the Broncos. Both superb defensive teams! LOL!
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This is what you said, "Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time".
I was giving you the answer that no, he was not very good compared to his prime and certainly not top 10 at his position.
Eh, we'll just disagree on that. I get where you're going, but I think even a 40 year old Peyton Manning was still top 10-11 in the league last year.
I'd flip this around a little bit, but this is pretty much how I saw it last year:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000524987/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132
You need a franchise QB to win multiple SB's. You can get one with D and a kicker. Getting one is awesome.
Again, name one team who has won the SB since 2003 who didn't have a true franchise QB at the helm (and don't give me that Joe Flacco bullshit like he isn't a franchise dude). Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.
Eh, we'll just disagree on that. I get where you're going, but I think even a 40 year old Peyton Manning was still top 10-11 in the league last year.
I'd flip this around a little bit, but this is pretty much how I saw it last year:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000524987/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132
Again, name one team who has won the SB since 2003 who didn't have a true franchise QB at the helm (and don't give me that Joe Flacco bullshit like he isn't a franchise dude). Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.
Peyton was one of the worst in the league last year. He may have been the worst of all starters in terms of rating. The guy only had like four games with a rating above 80.
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So now we have Tampa Bay and the Broncos. Both superb defensive teams! LOL!
That's why I said since 2003, aka after Tampa Bay won?
Peyton was one of the worst in the league last year. He may have been the worst of all starters in terms of rating. The guy only had like four games with a rating above 80.
Like I said, I'm willing to bend on the idea some with Manning this year. I understand, really I do, but a broken down Peyton Manning is still not on the same level as a Trent Dilfer.
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