Pull the trigger on Kevin White!
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Of all those Mocks I'd lean towards Shelton/Strong or Shelton Williams.
Taking Schreff is a big mistake and to kind of answer a rhetorical question from a previous post of your, Flugel - when healthy there was NO better Oline in the NFL than the Browns.
I have every faith that trend of dominance will continue into next season.
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The operative player clearly being "Shelton"... I agree. If Shelton is the first half of a Rnd 1 duo coming our way, I can be happy with any number of players' names to follow. That said...
Here's the thing about summaries, they don't reveal who the drafter passed over to select who they did. Who was available, but passed over, is as or more important than who they take determines fan reaction.
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Flugs... nice write ups.
Agree with your takes on McCown and what our run game will mean to him in 2015... and Terry Pluto says the Browns agree with us. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/03/cleveland_browns_have_their_re.html
Hoyer's strength was Play-Action. I think McCown is actually better at the play fake. Whether he can follow it with as reads as quick as Brian's were (at least early in 2014) is the question... but I am optimistic. If so, then McCown's stronger arm should set him (and us) to be more successful.
The above scenario does raise the value of WR prospects though. IMO, however, not to drag along a mediocre QB, but to full take advantage of a better one.
BTW, Haden was drafted in 2010 and Green/ Dalton were both drafted by Cinci in 2011 when they made the playoffs after finishing 3rd in the AFCN with a 9-7 record. So it wasn't like Green dragged Dalton to great heights.
You were right about the Cinci line tho... their 2014 version included 1-1st (Zeitler), 1-2nd (Whitworth), 1-3rd (Winston) and 2-4ths (Bolling and Bodine). All but Winston were Cinci picks. But it is not as if they haven't made a reasonable investment in their O-line and, that said, it appears they are looking to upgrade as both Bolling and Winston are FAs.
I think the days of filling lines with UDFAs and late round picks are gone. Sure there will still be a sleeper or two a year who surprises, but no more so than we see in other positions, at least not proportionally. I think the emphasis on line positions is greater today because the athletic demands on the positions are greater. And subsequently the scouting effort is greater. Add that since '82 the Combine has been added and the talent just is noticed more, better appraised, valued more and thus rises higher than in the past.
Other than players where character questions hurt their value, I haven't seen a true, sleeper O-lineman in a couple years. I thought we had one a couple years ago in Gilkey, but the ZBS (a prime example of the increased athletic demands) did not suit his game. My two "sleepers" this year, Marpet and Ty Sambrailo (this year's Bito, IMO), may both be taken in Rnd 2... some sleepers. If a guy from Hobart can't slip through...
Is WR a need for us? Sure... but not IMO a great need. I just do not buy the "stacked box" argument, because in 2014 I know we beat loaded boxes frequently, even with a diminished O-line following Mack's injury.
Seems we're both there on D-line being the area of greatest need and Shelton being the best player to fill that need. I think LB is 2nd with O-line depth being third. Not knowing what we have in Painter and Barton I think the O-line depth will require a second round pick. So unless we gain another 2nd in a trade down of one of our firsts, I don't see a WR pick until round three... and there's value there.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Flugs... nice write ups.
Agree with your takes on McCown and what our run game will mean to him in 2015... and Terry Pluto says the Browns agree with us. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/03/cleveland_browns_have_their_re.html
Hoyer's strength was Play-Action. I think McCown is actually better at the play fake. Whether he can follow it with as reads as quick as Brian's were (at least early in 2014) is the question... but I am optimistic. If so, then McCown's stronger arm should set him (and us) to be more successful.
The above scenario does raise the value of WR prospects though. IMO, however, not to drag along a mediocre QB, but to full take advantage of a better one.
BTW, Haden was drafted in 2010 and Green/ Dalton were both drafted by Cinci in 2011 when they made the playoffs after finishing 3rd in the AFCN with a 9-7 record. So it wasn't like Green dragged Dalton to great heights.
You were right about the Cinci line tho... their 2014 version included 1-1st (Zeitler), 1-2nd (Whitworth), 1-3rd (Winston) and 2-4ths (Bolling and Bodine). All but Winston were Cinci picks. But it is not as if they haven't made a reasonable investment in their O-line and, that said, it appears they are looking to upgrade as both Bolling and Winston are FAs.
I think the days of filling lines with UDFAs and late round picks are gone. Sure there will still be a sleeper or two a year who surprises, but no more so than we see in other positions, at least not proportionally. I think the emphasis on line positions is greater today because the athletic demands on the positions are greater. And subsequently the scouting effort is greater. Add that since '82 the Combine has been added and the talent just is noticed more, better appraised, valued more and thus rises higher than in the past.
Other than players where character questions hurt their value, I haven't seen a true, sleeper O-lineman in a couple years. I thought we had one a couple years ago in Gilkey, but the ZBS (a prime example of the increased athletic demands) did not suit his game. My two "sleepers" this year, Marpet and Ty Sambrailo (this year's Bito, IMO), may both be taken in Rnd 2... some sleepers. If a guy from Hobart can't slip through...
Is WR a need for us? Sure... but not IMO a great need. I just do not buy the "stacked box" argument, because in 2014 I know we beat loaded boxes frequently, even with a diminished O-line following Mack's injury.
Seems we're both there on D-line being the area of greatest need and Shelton being the best player to fill that need. I think LB is 2nd with O-line depth being third. Not knowing what we have in Painter and Barton I think the O-line depth will require a second round pick. So unless we gain another 2nd in a trade down of one of our firsts, I don't see a WR pick until round three... and there's value there.
Flugs... nice write ups.
Agree with your takes on McCown and what our run game will mean to him in 2015... and Terry Pluto says the Browns agree with us. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/03/cleveland_browns_have_their_re.html
Hoyer's strength was Play-Action. I think McCown is actually better at the play fake. Whether he can follow it with as reads as quick as Brian's were (at least early in 2014) is the question... but I am optimistic. If so, then McCown's stronger arm should set him (and us) to be more successful.
The above scenario does raise the value of WR prospects though. IMO, however, not to drag along a mediocre QB, but to full take advantage of a better one.
BTW, Haden was drafted in 2010 and Green/ Dalton were both drafted by Cinci in 2011 when they made the playoffs after finishing 3rd in the AFCN with a 9-7 record. So it wasn't like Green dragged Dalton to great heights.
You were right about the Cinci line tho... their 2014 version included 1-1st (Zeitler), 1-2nd (Whitworth), 1-3rd (Winston) and 2-4ths (Bolling and Bodine). All but Winston were Cinci picks. But it is not as if they haven't made a reasonable investment in their O-line and, that said, it appears they are looking to upgrade as both Bolling and Winston are FAs.
I think the days of filling lines with UDFAs and late round picks are gone. Sure there will still be a sleeper or two a year who surprises, but no more so than we see in other positions, at least not proportionally. I think the emphasis on line positions is greater today because the athletic demands on the positions are greater. And subsequently the scouting effort is greater. Add that since '82 the Combine has been added and the talent just is noticed more, better appraised, valued more and thus rises higher than in the past.
Other than players where character questions hurt their value, I haven't seen a true, sleeper O-lineman in a couple years. I thought we had one a couple years ago in Gilkey, but the ZBS (a prime example of the increased athletic demands) did not suit his game. My two "sleepers" this year, Marpet and Ty Sambrailo (this year's Bito, IMO), may both be taken in Rnd 2... some sleepers. If a guy from Hobart can't slip through...
Is WR a need for us? Sure... but not IMO a great need. I just do not buy the "stacked box" argument, because in 2014 I know we beat loaded boxes frequently, even with a diminished O-line following Mack's injury.
Seems we're both there on D-line being the area of greatest need and Shelton being the best player to fill that need. I think LB is 2nd with O-line depth being third. Not knowing what we have in Painter and Barton I think the O-line depth will require a second round pick. So unless we gain another 2nd in a trade down of one of our firsts, I don't see a WR pick until round three... and there's value there.
Thanks Tour! Enjoyable read with a lot of good points. I'm afraid you're right about finding quality help on the oline really late or in the undrafted ranks these days so I'll change that to hoping we can find quality oline depth anywhere from round 3-5. Those are good sleepers you named. Marpet ran a really good 40 but I wonder if his shorter arms and level of competition will push him down toward round 3 or 4. I used to live about 30 minutes from Hobart so I dig his story.
Dead on with Gilkey. One of the concerns I always have with drafting a college Tackle in hopes of a smooth transition to becoming an NFL Guard is how quickly they can handle trapping/pulling if they haven't had much experience doing so. Some guys like Bitonio can get it. Pinkston and Lauvao couldn't (reminding us Daniel Snyder only has 2 brain cells and they're not on speaking terms). Unfortunately, a guy like Gilkey didn't get it as quickly as the shape of our line needed him to. In particular, it looked like he was tipping off a lot of our plays just in his stance. It sure seemed like anytime we either tried a short trap or asked him to pull - the defense swarmed in behind his fanny and blew our plays up in the backfield. My guess is opponents were catching something in his stance (maybe a slight lean or rock back) on film so he was an easy key on game day. Another thing a pulling/trapping guard should never do is BELLY back in lieu of staying tight to the line of scrimmage; especially when a lot of counter traps rely on play action fakes. I think I remembered seeing Gilkey collide with a fake handoff in a trap gone wrong. Also, when you're doing a power sweep or just pulling 1 guard to get your RB outside, if your guard bellies back it defeats the entire purpose of pulling the guard. Consequently, the RB has to wait that much longer to set up his blocks which only expedites pursuit getting to our ball carrier. I didn't pay much attention to what Gilkey did in TB. The only thing I know is their running game ended up ranked 29th. Part of me still wants to see that young man make it. But NFL windows are slamming shut quicker than ever so he's gotta -and get after it...
In terms of Cincy, they've attempted to give their QB a 6'5" TE (Gresham) in round 1, a 6'6" TE (Eifert) in round 1, a 6'4" Green in round 1 (11 TD receptions in 2013). There was another tall WR Marlon Jones that accounted for 10 more of Dalton's 33 TD passes in 2013. Mo Sanu was recently an early round investment for the passing game. Meanwhile, behind those oline investments you mentioned - they added Giovani Bernard in 2013 as their first home run threat in the backfield. This was followed up by an attempt to upgrade BenJarvus Green-Ellis' 3.4 yards per carry in 2013 via drafting Jeremy Hill in round 2. He became another home run threat in a much bigger frame. All that said, I like our line better and enjoyed seeing Crown sporting over 5 yards a carry when our line was at full strength. I think we have a solid slot receiver while I expect us to bring back a Miles Austin that wants us to. I really believe this draft is going to give us an excellent opportunity to strengthen our ability to score on the perimeter. As we agreed, the Josh McCown with a balanced attack in Chicago was much more successful than the one with only 1 dimension in Tampa.
New math: 10 draft picks + 50 million $ = Kickoff + Kickass
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Of all those Mocks I'd lean towards Shelton/Strong or Shelton Williams.
Taking Schreff is a big mistake and to kind of answer a rhetorical question from a previous post of your, Flugel - when healthy there was NO better Oline in the NFL than the Browns.
I have every faith that trend of dominance will continue into next season.
Of all those Mocks I'd lean towards Shelton/Strong or Shelton Williams.
Taking Schreff is a big mistake and to kind of answer a rhetorical question from a previous post of your, Flugel - when healthy there was NO better Oline in the NFL than the Browns.
I have every faith that trend of dominance will continue into next season.
I love both those Shelton scenarios too! My football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia
It looked like Parker and Brown appeared most frequently. Maybe I'm just being unfair to Brown but the thought of getting the 3rd ranked NT with our first pick would leave me feeling like we're leapfrogging a unicorn (in the sense of how many BPAs we're blowing off).
The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Of all those Mocks I'd lean towards Shelton/Strong or Shelton Williams.
Taking Schreff is a big mistake and to kind of answer a rhetorical question from a previous post of your, Flugel - when healthy there was NO better Oline in the NFL than the Browns.
I have every faith that trend of dominance will continue into next season.
I love both those Shelton scenarios too! My football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia
It looked like Parker and Brown appeared most frequently. Maybe I'm just being unfair to Brown but the thought of getting the 3rd ranked NT with our first pick would leave me feeling like we're leapfrogging a unicorn (in the sense of how many BPAs we're blowing off).
The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.
I love both those Shelton scenarios too! My football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia
It looked like Parker and Brown appeared most frequently. Maybe I'm just being unfair to Brown but the thought of getting the 3rd ranked NT with our first pick would leave me feeling like we're leapfrogging a unicorn (in the sense of how many BPAs we're blowing off).
The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.
I'm not sure if you intentionally used 'NT' or meant the 3rd ranked DT or big man overall? In which case, no shame in either of them. This is a loaded Dline class.
And if draft experts have Erick Flowers as a 'poor mans Greg Robinson' - I'd rather much avoid him then.
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Of all those Mocks I'd lean towards Shelton/Strong or Shelton Williams.
Taking Schreff is a big mistake and to kind of answer a rhetorical question from a previous post of your, Flugel - when healthy there was NO better Oline in the NFL than the Browns.
I have every faith that trend of dominance will continue into next season.
I love both those Shelton scenarios too! My football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia
It looked like Parker and Brown appeared most frequently. Maybe I'm just being unfair to Brown but the thought of getting the 3rd ranked NT with our first pick would leave me feeling like we're leapfrogging a unicorn (in the sense of how many BPAs we're blowing off).
The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.
The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.
Peat had by far the best tape I've seen on an O-lineman this year, but ever since the Combine I just cannot get his odd body type out of my head. The dude looks like one of the goons from old, Popeye cartoons...
Flowers's tape was OK as it showed decent technique, but I thought he had issues getting to the 2nd level and delivering effective blocks that I attributed to lacking athleticism. Bottom line: I did not think he was well suited for our ZBS.
Also do not get the comparison with Robinson who to my eye came out all athlete, but little technique.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.
Peat had by far the best tape I've seen on an O-lineman this year, but ever since the Combine I just cannot get his odd body type out of my head. The dude looks like one of the goons from old, Popeye cartoons...
Flowers's tape was OK as it showed decent technique, but I thought he had issues getting to the 2nd level and delivering effective blocks that I attributed to lacking athleticism. Bottom line: I did not think he was well suited for our ZBS.
Also do not get the comparison with Robinson who to my eye came out all athlete, but little technique.
Peat had by far the best tape I've seen on an O-lineman this year, but ever since the Combine I just cannot get his odd body type out of my head. The dude looks like one of the goons from old, Popeye cartoons...
Flowers's tape was OK as it showed decent technique, but I thought he had issues getting to the 2nd level and delivering effective blocks that I attributed to lacking athleticism. Bottom line: I did not think he was well suited for our ZBS.
Also do not get the comparison with Robinson who to my eye came out all athlete, but little technique.
Here's the most recent time I saw Flowers compared to Robinson:
12 - WR DeVante Parker (Louisville)
19 - OL Ereck Flowers (Miami)
Of note: Flowers is young and raw and has drawn comparisons to Greg Robinson, whom the Rams selected with the No. 2 pick in last yearβs draft. No one benched more than Flowers (37 repetitions of 225 pounds) at the Combine.
The reason I added "poor man's" is because Flowers isn't being projected anywhere close to #2 overall.
Just to be clear, I'm happy with our starting line as is right now. I have so many prospects I prefer to the oline prospects in round 1 that I carefully worded "if it was our fate to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather go after Ereck Flowers."
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Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
Thanks again Diehard!!!
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Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
Thanks again Diehard!!!
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Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
I thought this was a perfect reminder of where you stood when I returned despite what you were spewing out in front of your audience in the Crow thread while forgetting how easily cut and paste can pin one to the truth.
Have a terrific day!
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Both of you guys are ok people from the impression I get. The only person you have to worry about is the guy in the mirror you look at when you're shaving in the morning. Take a longer look.
Some peeps don't like each other that's what life is. You just have to be respectable. Carry on gents kids are reading.
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Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
I thought this was a perfect reminder of where you stood when I returned despite what you were spewing out in front of your audience in the Crow thread while forgetting how easily cut and paste can pin one to the truth.
Have a terrific day!
I thought this was a perfect reminder of where you stood when I returned despite what you were spewing out in front of your audience in the Crow thread while forgetting how easily cut and paste can pin one to the truth.
Have a terrific day!
I also think you have mental health problems, but continue on with your spouting of bullshit! Have a nice day.
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I thought this was a perfect reminder of where you stood when I returned despite what you were spewing out in front of your audience in the Crow thread while forgetting how easily cut and paste can pin one to the truth.
Have a terrific day!
I also think you have mental health problems, but continue on with your spouting of bullshit! Have a nice day.
I also think you have mental health problems, but continue on with your spouting of bullshit! Have a nice day.
You've had 1 trophy case moment after another today. I almost feel sorry for you. Sweet dreams...
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I also think you have mental health problems, but continue on with your spouting of bullshit! Have a nice day.
You've had 1 trophy case moment after another today. I almost feel sorry for you. Sweet dreams...
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Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
Welcome back Flugs. Long time no see.
Doesn't it suck when someone gets exposed for his inability to tell the truth? You kicked your ass today and all I had to do was watch and laugh. Thanks!
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