Browns lose Desmond Bryant for the season
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"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.
Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope
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I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope
At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope
Thanks Gumby! I think Horton wants to vary the fronts but the first time he came here he took on the talent load of a 4 win team with injuries compounding what he could and couldn't do. It was like he was given a gridiron chess table without all the chess pieces for the alignments and strategies he wanted to pull off.
The last thing we need to be worrying about coming off 3 wins is losing defensive linemen before training camp starts in the weight room. But, when we only won 3 games with yesterday's talent ranking with anchors - who in that front 7 was irreplaceable?
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Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
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Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.
Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!
Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!
Actually I was referring to this part of your post, "Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs..."
He would be the one worth making the change to 4-3 permanent. Opportunity!
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Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
I hope not Mud.
Cooper was a rookie so there was a reluctance to start that ahead of our highest paid veteran (D. Bryant) who was well liked by the DC. Orchard didn't start at his OLB position; but once he got a chance to get more reps later on in our train-wreck - he closed the season pretty well IMO. I don't think Cooper and Orchard on a limited rep count was a case of they sucked or there's no chance at upside ahead. It was more of a perception of who was ready to play faster both mentally and physically.
If memory serves me right, John Hughes played NT in college at Cincy because he was good at 2 gap football there. I don't know if he ever had the foot speed to play DE. In fact, we also also auditioned guys like Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin out at DE as recently as 2013 or 2014 (both guys that played DT/NT inside in college d/t to a lack of footspeed to play DE). I think we'd appreciate Hughes' 2 gap ability/integrity better inside where his boundary is far smaller than all the way to the sidelines.
Jamie Meder seemed like a pleasant surprise to me when he got reps while Randy Starks was here for his experience and hopes of bringing leadership which he failed at.
Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.
As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Mud & Flug you both bring up great points. Less than a week to Camp & the DE position just added a major concern but there's time to shuffle before camp. Hell Billy Wynn is still a FA.. The positive of the draft & FA maybe LB & WR. Now with Des out, Why do we continue the Ogbah move to LB? His career was build at DE.. If we line 3. I like Hughes,Shelton & Ogbah. With not additions we go to camp with Meder & Lawrence Staple (PS maybe, but a run stuffier) both at 320 will rotate Shelton at nose. Last updated depth chart I have seen is RDE-Hughes,Ogbah & Dylan Wynn. LDE-X.Cooper, C. Nassib & Kyle Rose. ROLB- Orchard, A. Bryant, Jackson Jeffcoat & Cam Johnson. RILB-Dmario Davis, Carder & Scooby. LOLB- Kruger, Mingo & Schobert. RILB- Kirksey, Tuggle & D. Alexander. Somehow Ogbah needs to stay home at DE R or L imo..
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"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.
Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.
Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack
was jamir not the 4-3 olb'er?
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For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.
Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack
was jamir not the 4-3 olb'er?
was jamir not the 4-3 olb'er?
In 1999 and 2000, yes.
In 2001 when Courtney Brown went on IR after week 5, Jamir played the next 11 games at his spot and added 13 sacks earning himself a Pro Bowl at DE.
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Seems to me that Tyrone Rogers replaced Brown, opposite of Lang, and Miller was a pass rushing linebacker.
Z
Zombo said:
Seems to me that Tyrone Rogers replaced Brown, opposite of Lang, and Miller was a pass rushing linebacker.
Z
If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:
Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.
Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.
Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.
Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.
Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.
Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.
Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.
Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:
No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty
95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18
57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27
24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15
20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17
33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6
52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19
58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29
94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13
23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19
37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10
43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8
78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9
74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13
96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7
99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1
92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7
31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2
90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2
47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3
51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6
55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4
21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2
70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6
36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0
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While I regret his loss, it's also a great OPPORTUNITY for one of our young players to step up. It will be interesting to see who will. I do think we have talent there.
Mike
While I regret his loss, it's also a great OPPORTUNITY for one of our young players to step up. It will be interesting to see who will. I do think we have talent there.
Mike
You and Zombo share this point and it's a really good one IMO.
Way back in 2001, our 1st overall pick from 2000 (Courtney Brown) had 5 sacks in his first 5 games before he suffered a season ending injury. Seemed like we were looking at improbability of replacing him with anyone decent especially knowing we only won 3 games the year before. As fate would have, we begin to see how Jamir Miller could play from a 3 point stance in lieu of the 2 point stance we were accustomed to seeing in 1999 and 2000. He finished the year with 13 sacks while we improved to 7 wins in spite of losing 2 OTs games.
1 year later (2002) when it seemed like the defense was going to be built around Jamir's Pro Bowl pass rush skills, we lost him to a career ending injury in our first preseason game. Despite the bad news, we went on to win 9 games and make the playoffs the only time since we've had our team back.
That's why they play the games...
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Actually I was referring to this part of your post, "Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs..."
Sometimes it's more fun to feign ignorance...
Hell Billy Wynn is still a FA.
Trimmed down, he'd be fine by me...
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Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
I hope not Mud.
Cooper was a rookie so there was a reluctance to start that ahead of our highest paid veteran (D. Bryant) who was well liked by the DC. Orchard didn't start at his OLB position; but once he got a chance to get more reps later on in our train-wreck - he closed the season pretty well IMO. I don't think Cooper and Orchard on a limited rep count was a case of they sucked or there's no chance at upside ahead. It was more of a perception of who was ready to play faster both mentally and physically.
If memory serves me right, John Hughes played NT in college at Cincy because he was good at 2 gap football there. I don't know if he ever had the foot speed to play DE. In fact, we also also auditioned guys like Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin out at DE as recently as 2013 or 2014 (both guys that played DT/NT inside in college d/t to a lack of footspeed to play DE). I think we'd appreciate Hughes' 2 gap ability/integrity better inside where his boundary is far smaller than all the way to the sidelines.
Jamie Meder seemed like a pleasant surprise to me when he got reps while Randy Starks was here for his experience and hopes of bringing leadership which he failed at.
Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.
As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.
I hope not Mud.
Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.
As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.
Right....Id say, now more than ever, we have personnel that best fits a 4-3......we have a ton of 4-3 DE's we are trying to morph into OLB's.....and we have a wealth of interior DT's, we are using as DE's and we have a shortage of versatile LB's, which we are spinning our wheels on with guys like Kruger, Bryant & Mingo.....so, why force ALL these guys to play out of position????......
Id use a 4 man front, something like.........A. Bryant...Shelton...Meder...ogbah.....backed by Kirksey...Davis and Orchard......
And back them up with a rotation of...........Nassib....Hughes...Cooper...Kruger....backed by Schobert..Wright....Mingo.....
And, looking at this....even with only 3, you can still see the weakness of LB and the strength on DL.....
But the Browns will jam those DE's into the OLB position(diminishing their skills) and creating situations where our DE's turned OLB's cannot make the play, cover the TE or slot, catch the RB in the flat, etc.....
Simply put...use what you got.....and adjust the system to the talent. So far, that aint happening(with Horton or Pettine)....
Mud & Flug you both bring up great points. Now with Des out, Why do we continue the Ogbah move to LB? His career was build at DE.. If we line 3. I like Hughes,Shelton & Ogbah. With not additions we go to camp with Meder & Lawrence Staple (PS maybe, but a run stuffier) both at 320 will rotate Shelton at nose. Last updated depth chart I have seen is RDE-Hughes,Ogbah & Dylan Wynn. LDE-X.Cooper, C. Nassib & Kyle Rose. ROLB- Orchard, A. Bryant, Jackson Jeffcoat & Cam Johnson. RILB-Dmario Davis, Carder & Scooby. LOLB- Kruger, Mingo & Schobert. RILB- Kirksey, Tuggle & D. Alexander. Somehow Ogbah needs to stay home at DE R or L imo..
And, if he stays, lets get A. Bryant back to DE.....and, if we MUST keep him, do the same with Kruger.....these 2 aint OLB's. Point blank.
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Nate Orchard had 18 sacks or something as a 4-3 DE and you'd play him 4-3 OLB? I agree by and large about the switch to 4-3, but with Ogbah, Orchard, Nassib and Bryant we have some pretty decent pass rushers. Kruger could even be cut, I know you'd like that! Mingo's coverage and occasional blitzing would work well as a 4-3 OLB (not the mike though, you kinda need a brain for that), with Davis in the middle and Kirksey at the other OLB spot.
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Zombo said:
Seems to me that Tyrone Rogers replaced Brown, opposite of Lang, and Miller was a pass rushing linebacker.
Z
If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:
Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.
Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.
Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.
Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.
Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.
Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.
Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.
Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:
No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty
95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18
57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27
24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15
20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17
33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6
52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19
58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29
94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13
23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19
37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10
43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8
78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9
74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13
96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7
99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1
92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7
31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2
90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2
47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3
51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6
55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4
21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2
70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6
36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0
If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:
Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.
Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.
Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.
Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.
Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.
Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.
Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.
Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:
No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty
95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18
57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27
24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15
20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17
33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6
52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19
58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29
94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13
23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19
37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10
43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8
78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9
74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13
96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7
99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1
92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7
31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2
90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2
47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3
51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6
55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4
21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2
70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6
36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0
So Lang didn't get there until 2002 ... I liked him.
Guess I was thinking of McKenzie.
When they were all healthy at the beginning of the year they were pretty bad ass. That heartbreaking loss to the Bears where they scored 20 points in 2 seconds ... Our DL was dominating that game up to that point.
Z
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Nate Orchard had 18 sacks or something as a 4-3 DE and you'd play him 4-3 OLB? I agree by and large about the switch to 4-3, but with Ogbah, Orchard, Nassib and Bryant we have some pretty decent pass rushers. Kruger could even be cut, I know you'd like that! Mingo's coverage and occasional blitzing would work well as a 4-3 OLB (not the mike though, you kinda need a brain for that), with Davis in the middle and Kirksey at the other OLB spot.
Nate Orchard had 18 sacks or something as a 4-3 DE and you'd play him 4-3 OLB? I agree by and large about the switch to 4-3, but with Ogbah, Orchard, Nassib and Bryant we have some pretty decent pass rushers. Kruger could even be cut, I know you'd like that! Mingo's coverage and occasional blitzing would work well as a 4-3 OLB (not the mike though, you kinda need a brain for that), with Davis in the middle and Kirksey at the other OLB spot.
Yeah....I agree that Orchard would be really nice at DE, but with this group, he's likely to be our best OLB by a mile(at least in my mind). Id rather have him on the field with some of the other pass rushers..
And yes, Id like "that"....
And agree that Kirksey and Mingo should be the other OLBs....with a 4-3, I think Mingo would have a better chance shooting gaps and flashing around "occupied" OL......and is an ideal coverage backer....
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Question for all of you. Are any of you planning to attend open practices before the pre-season gets started?
It would be nice to get reports back on whether we are seeing more of the 4-3 like most of us feel fits best for our current players.
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Question for all of you. Are any of you planning to attend open practices before the pre-season gets started?
It would be nice to get reports back on whether we are seeing more of the 4-3 like most of us feel fits best for our current players.
Question for all of you. Are any of you planning to attend open practices before the pre-season gets started?
It would be nice to get reports back on whether we are seeing more of the 4-3 like most of us feel fits best for our current players.
I'll be there for the 31st.
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Question for all of you. Are any of you planning to attend open practices before the pre-season gets started?
It would be nice to get reports back on whether we are seeing more of the 4-3 like most of us feel fits best for our current players.
I'll be there for the 31st.
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Question for all of you. Are any of you planning to attend open practices before the pre-season gets started?
It would be nice to get reports back on whether we are seeing more of the 4-3 like most of us feel fits best for our current players.
I'll be there for the 31st.
I'll be there for the 31st.
Check out the SS & FS plan. 8 man battle, maybe we don't miss Whitner? Last depth chart I got was FS-Poyer,R.Moore,Don Jones,E. Patterson & AJ Stamps..SS-Campbell, Tim Scott & D. Kindred..I like tall trees that lay some wood..
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