Grossi: Browns Will Not Take Crabtree
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@inspecta said:
I agree with the Peen, having Raji and Rogers means you have 2 guys on the D-line that you have to double team, which means 4 linemen will have to be used to block two guys, I don't care how bad our linebackers are, with one free linemen to block whoever else is rushing, that leaves a lot of opportunity for the linebackers to run free to the QBBut CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.
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@inspecta said:
I agree with the Peen, having Raji and Rogers means you have 2 guys on the D-line that you have to double team, which means 4 linemen will have to be used to block two guys, I don't care how bad our linebackers are, with one free linemen to block whoever else is rushing, that leaves a lot of opportunity for the linebackers to run free to the QBBut CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.
Masters said:
But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.
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Masters said:
But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.
Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.
I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.
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Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.
I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.
Masters said:
I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.Rogers was beating triple teams last year and you don't think he can't destroy at DE? Don't get the logic.
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@inspecta said:
Perhaps Grossi got tired of not getting any info and broke into Berea after hours and planted bugs all over the facility?Just a thought...
LOL... I got a good mental visual of that.
Anything is possible. But I think he is hearing what CLE wants him and other to hear.
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Masters said:
I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.Rogers was beating triple teams last year and you don't think he can't destroy at DE? Don't get the logic.
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Masters said:
I don't think he can get around the edge when taking on a T and a G. A little different than always bull rushing a C and G.I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.
Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.
To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.
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Masters said:
I don't think he can get around the edge when taking on a T and a G. A little different than always bull rushing a C and G.I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.
Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.
To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.
I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.
Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.
To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.
Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.
3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).
Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.
Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.
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I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.
Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.
To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.
Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.
3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).
Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.
Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.
Masters said:
Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).
Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.
Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.
I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.
I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.
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Masters said:
Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).
Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.
Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.
I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.
I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.
AdaM said:
I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.
I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.
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AdaM said:
I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.
I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.
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Masters said:
I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.
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AdaM said:
Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.
Masters said:
Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
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Masters said:
Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
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and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.
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Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.
Masters said:
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).
Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
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McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.
McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.
And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.
Reasons?
1) Speed
2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.
3) Gifted return man as well
4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.
- Tom F.
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McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.
And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.
Reasons?
1) Speed
2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.
3) Gifted return man as well
4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.
- Tom F.
And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.
Reasons?
1) Speed
2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.
3) Gifted return man as well
4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.
- Tom F.
I think I like Maclin just as much or even better too. The kid is blazing quick. Makes people miss all over the place.
But as far as injuries go, remember, Maclin blew out his knew. There are injury concerns for both guys.
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Masters said:
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).
Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
Aloysius said:
Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.
I think the only real solid 5 technique DE in this draft is Jackson. I don't think he is worth a #5. But, you are right about not passing on a super talent who can play in a 2 gap 3-4. But that's a guy who is big, strong and athletic and can use his hands to shed blocks really well. For me, that isn't Raji and it wouldn't be Rogers unless he could get down to about 295 and keep his strength.
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and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.
Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.
True BUT NE didn't switch to a 3-4 immediately upon BB's arrival. They did so when they experienced some injury volumes along their dline and things got thin up front. Ted Johnson was their starting MLBer back when they ran the 4-3.
IMO, Richard Seymour was prolly THE most unique draft choice for NE in the sense that he was a DT at GA with the build and athleticism to be a DE or a DT at the NFL level. Talk about your ideal 3-4 guy. It doesn't get ANY better than that. I thought he was the best downlinemen in the league on the defensive side of the ball for about 4 years until wear and tear caught up with him.
I don't know what rounds Pittsburgh drafted DEs Brett Keisel and Aaron Smith in or how much megabucks they make. I DO think their role in the scheme CREATES the ideal opportunities for Harrison and Woodley when sacks are needed off the edge.
- Tom F.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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