Grossi: Browns Will Not Take Crabtree

DeadWombat

I never liked crabtree once I heard about his arrogance and personality issues..... I wouldn't want him.

? Masters

AdaM said:
Masters this was reported as being overheard from Mangini's mouth while Crabtree was in Berea working out.

From? My point it, guys like Grossi have been complaining they can't get info, yet he suddenly keeps getting tips about who CLE is gonna draft and that they will trade Quinn. Seems a bit off to me that the front office is tight lipped about everything else they have done, but this info leaks.

? Masters · by Tony Grossi/Plain Dealer Reporter Wednesday April 22, 2009, 10:41 AM

@riffer-x said:
Here Mik
Tony Grossi's blog: Cleveland Browns passing on Michael Crabtree

by Tony Grossi/Plain Dealer Reporter Wednesday April 22, 2009, 10:41 AM

CLEVELAND -- The Browns have all but crossed off Michael Crabtree as a candidate for the No. 5 overall pick, said a source.

The Texas Tech receiver brought a diva attitude on his visit to the club facility last week and did not impress coach Eric Mangini and others, the source said. In fact, Crabtree was described by some in the building as "not nice." After Crabtree left, Mangini secured last-minute workouts with borderline first-round receivers Hakeem Nicks of North Carolina, Kenny Britt of Rutgers and Mohamed Massaquoi of Georgia.

* No, Derek Anderson did not have surgery on his left knee in the offseason. So why wouldn't Browns GM George Kokinis just admit it in his pre-draft press conference this week? It's a mandate from Mangini to not even acknowledge questions about surgeries. Mangini jumped all over Kokinis when Kokinis let it slip in an interview prior to the NFL combine in February that running back Jamal Lewis had routine arthroscopic surgery to "clean up" an ankle. Mangini does not even intend to speak the letters MRI if a player, in fact, has had the routine exam.

* Crabtree might not even be the first receiver taken in the draft. Seattle (fourth) and Cincinnati (sixth) are expected to fill greater needs on the offensive line. Oakland (seventh) is enamored with the speed of Missouri's Jeremy Maclin. Jacksonville (eighth) has been burned so many times by first-round receivers, they are gunshy to take another. It's quite possible that Alabama tackle Andre Smith, who turned off so many coaches at the NFL combine, will be taken ahead of Crabtree.

* Boston College defensive tackle B.J. Raji is back on the rise after reports of a positive drug test proved false. He's very much in the mix with the Browns at No. 5. Drafting Raji might result in more four-man fronts for the Browns. Also, Shaun Rogers would move to right end in the base 3-4 front. If the Browns pass him up, Raji is not expected to get past Jacksonville at No. 8 or Green Bay, for sure, at No. 9.

* New Orleans sees Ohio State's Malcolm Jenkins as a free safety and is expected to take him at No. 14.

* The first USC linebacker will go to Houston at No. 15. But which one? Either Brian Cushing or Clay Matthews, but not Rey Maualuga.

I had read it. I think it is all reporter speculation.

? Masters

@inspecta said:
I agree with the Peen, having Raji and Rogers means you have 2 guys on the D-line that you have to double team, which means 4 linemen will have to be used to block two guys, I don't care how bad our linebackers are, with one free linemen to block whoever else is rushing, that leaves a lot of opportunity for the linebackers to run free to the QB

But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.

Riffer X

Masters said:
But CLE just tried this approach, and most on here pointed out last year you can't run a 3-4 with 2 guys above 320~330 sitting on the line. It doesn't work.

Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.

? Masters

@riffer-x said:
Mik I said in another thread that you must not have seen that the problem with your theory is in essence you're comparing Rogers at DE to FatSmith and an overweight and hurt Williams playing his first year at DE. Totally different scenariio with Rogers out there and Robaire and a healthy and thin downed Williams rotating.

I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.

Riffer X

Masters said:
I did miss that, sorry. Yes and no. It's still about guys that aren't going to get around the edge or do much of anything in passing situation. You still get someone new at trying to play DE. Trying to put Rogers and Raji together on a 3-4 line is a recipe for failure in my opinion. If CLE goes that route, they should just go to a 4-3 and call it a day.

Rogers was beating triple teams last year and you don't think he can't destroy at DE? Don't get the logic.

? Masters

@inspecta said:
Perhaps Grossi got tired of not getting any info and broke into Berea after hours and planted bugs all over the facility?
Just a thought...

LOL... I got a good mental visual of that.

Anything is possible. But I think he is hearing what CLE wants him and other to hear.

? Masters

@riffer-x said:
Rogers was beating triple teams last year and you don't think he can't destroy at DE? Don't get the logic.

I don't think he can get around the edge when taking on a T and a G. A little different than always bull rushing a C and G.

Riffer X

Masters said:
I don't think he can get around the edge when taking on a T and a G. A little different than always bull rushing a C and G.

I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.

Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.

To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.

? Masters

@riffer-x said:
I disagree. Rogers is as athletic as they get and we're talking 3/4 end here not 4/3. Plus, he could probably be talked into dropping some Lbs given that I'm sure he'd be ecstatic to make the move.
Agree with your premise but not the specifics in this case. Good 3/4 ends are a mother to find and I think Rogers could dominate there and also take tremendous pressure off of whoever ends up playing OLB next to him. Also, these guys will probably go 4/3 40% of the time anyway and those two could be devastating next to each other.

To me, the only question is whether or not the guy's character is more like Pocket Change Warren that worries me.

Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.

3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).

Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.

Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.

? AdaM

Masters said:
Rogers is athletic. But it is usually followed by "for a guy 340lbs". Seeing as how he was miffed about a weight requirement earlier this offseason (allegedly), I don't see him being ecstatic to have to lose weight.
3-4 ends are tough to find, unless you are PIT or NE. While I see him taking some blocking off an OLB rushing, they are now going to have to get around Rogers giant body and the two guys blocking him. If Rogers is taking on a T, I'd expect to see Rogers on the T (who will always be more agile) and getting chipped by a TE. Which should give enough time to prevent him from getting to the QB before he gets the ball off. I mean people talk about Wimbley not having moves from the edge, well Rogers is gonna have less imo (considering he's never played DE in any scheme).

Now, as you pointed out CLE will play a lot of 4-3 or 4-2 lineups in passing downs, and sure Rogers and Raji would be great taking up 3 to 4 of the guys blocking. But what about those running downs when you can take the ball to the edge. You are gonna beat Rogers to the edge. He ain't NFL RB fast/quick. I just don't see it working with two mountains.

Character is a concern too. I remember the last questionable character player CLE took in the 1st round from BC.

I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.

I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.

? Masters

AdaM said:
I duno, Rogers to me is a guy who would love to rush the QB, he's just trapped in a NT's body.
I think Rogers would be a lot more motivated at DE than NT because he would have more glamor on his job description and be able to go after the QB more.

I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.

? AdaM

Masters said:
I'd grant the glamour part. But he also just saw Haynesworth get that same glamour as a DT.

Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.

? Masters

AdaM said:
Well he's stuck in a 3-4 he's gotta settle for DE in this scenario.

Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.

YtownBrownsBacker

Masters said:
Except that in a 3-4 the NT is about the most glamorous on the line. 3-4 DE aren't exactly known for racking up the sacks or getting paid big. That goes to the OLB in the 3-4.

and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.

? Aloysius

@ytownbrownsbacker said:
and this isn't a one gap scheme, it is a two gap system. Read and react. So, why would you pay a DE big bucks when he isn't in a position to be an impact palyer. LBs are the playmakers in the 3-4.

This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.

Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.

Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.

? Masters

Aloysius said:
This seems reasonable at first, but it completely flies in the face of what Belichick and other 3-4 gurus have done.
Look at New England's d-line: all 1st round picks, and Belichick's drafted depth guys in Rounds 2-4. Seymour was taken with the 6th pick in the draft and is currently playing on the back end of a lucrative contract extension. NE's other starting end, Ty Warren, signed a 5 year, $36M extension two years ago.

Based on that, one can only conclude that two gap DE's are worth huge bucks. The problem is that this year's draft doesn't necessarily have a guy worth that kind of money. Next year's draft definitely does.

I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.

? Aloysius

Masters said:
I'd never say that a guy won't come alone here and there worth it. But just as you can point to NE, I can point to PIT which does not have 1st rounders sitting a DE.

Well, Ytown's point was about the specific type of two gap 3-4 that we run, which is distinct from the Phillips and LeBeau versions of the 3-4. One of the Steelers' reporters at Scout.com wrote a good piece a while back about how the Steelers' brand of 3-4 allows them to draft d-linemen later. I'll try to dig it up (EDIT: Posted the article here).

Also, you're right about these guys not coming around often, but that's the whole point. According to Bill Parcells' "Planet Theory", guys who are both huge & freakishly athletic are so rare that you have to take one if he's available. There may not be a guy who fits the bill in this year's draft, but Mangini wouldn't simply pass on one because the guy would play 3-4 DE.

Flugel

@oldcrow1945 said:
McShay agrees with Grossi. He changed his pick and He now says Maclin will be the first WR taken. The Raiders.

And Flugel's been saying Maclin over Crabtree long before Grossi and MockShay.

Reasons?

1) Speed

2) Count HOW MANY of Crabtree's highlights (EVEN THE GAME WINNING TD RECEPTION vrs TEXAS) you can actually count more than 1 DB in the picture. That is BECAUSE Mike Leach used a 4 WR spread to prevent a defenseless conference from doubling his BEST WR. The NEXT level will be a bigger adaptation process than people think for him.

3) Gifted return man as well

4) Foot injuries are unpredictable. Remember Keith Byars' first couple years in the NFL? Neither does he because he was injured and his career didn't really kick off until his 3rd year if memory serves me right.

- Tom F.