I HATE RAY HORTON
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Horton may suck Tom- but he has around zero talent to work with. The Browns have maybe 4-5 guys on our defense that even belong on an NFL roster. We picked up Nassib and Ogbah this year. So at the rate of 2 good defensive players a year, that the Harvard brainless trust are getting us- It should only take around 3-4 more years to have the possibility of having a good defense.
I'm with you on this one- you get special team players in the 4th-round and lower- not starters (unless you get damn lucky.) Sushi and DePo Repo probably only have one more season to show how brilliant they are. Right now, the only excitement left is seeing if we can luck into a win. I put the over\under at 2- 1\2 wins before the season. I'd say your Vegas bet is looking like a lead pipe lock.
Arizona Cardinals in 2011-12 no Talent
Cleveland Browns in 2013 we have no talent!
Tennessee Titans 2014-2015 No talent here!
Cleveland Browns 2016 No talent to be found!
Thats the problem with horton he just keeps getting on to teams with no talent real shame that...
Arizona Cardinals in 2011-12 no Talent
Cleveland Browns in 2013 we have no talent!
Tennessee Titans 2014-2015 No talent here!
Cleveland Browns 2016 No talent to be found!
Thats the problem with horton he just keeps getting on to teams with no talent real shame that...
2011 Arizona - 18th in overall D
2012 Arizona - 12th
2014 Tennessee - 27th
2015 Tennessee - 12th
So the teams got better with him as DC. That being said, in 2013 Arizona were 8th, and in 2016 the Titans are 8th. So he might have had an impact, might not. I suspect, shockingly, there's more to it than stats.
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Zero firings until 2018 at the earliest.
Cool, we'll be 0-42 before that stupid fucking, DC goes
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I am no fan of Hortons, but right now we have zero talent on D. None.
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I am no fan of Hortons, but right now we have zero talent on D. None.
Bullshit! Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position. It takes the coach to plan the chess match and utilize that talent in the best way possible. Only once in a while does a player come in and Excell. That's your playmaker. Coaching is everything in the NFL. Horton couldn't coach here in the past, didn't do so great for 2 other teams and is back. Now he's part owner of an 0-7 record. He sucked then, sucks today and will suck tomorrow. Him and whoever thought he is some sort of great NFL DC should all be shitcanned. Patience my ass! When a good HC takes over, the changes are immediate and for the better. I have witnessed this happen several times before and will happen again. How's the ST play going? O line? QB life expectancy? D line? D backfield? 2 minute drill? Other than new faces, is there game day improvement anywhere? All I have seen is redefining the word suck!
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"Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position"
So did basically everyone in the NFL (except Mingo). Are you saying there's no talent difference between the players? Or each team only gets a couple of 'playmakers' and everyone else is just an interchangeable scrub?
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I am no fan of Hortons, but right now we have zero talent on D. None.
Bullshit! Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position. It takes the coach to plan the chess match and utilize that talent in the best way possible. Only once in a while does a player come in and Excell. That's your playmaker. Coaching is everything in the NFL. Horton couldn't coach here in the past, didn't do so great for 2 other teams and is back. Now he's part owner of an 0-7 record. He sucked then, sucks today and will suck tomorrow. Him and whoever thought he is some sort of great NFL DC should all be shitcanned. Patience my ass! When a good HC takes over, the changes are immediate and for the better. I have witnessed this happen several times before and will happen again. How's the ST play going? O line? QB life expectancy? D line? D backfield? 2 minute drill? Other than new faces, is there game day improvement anywhere? All I have seen is redefining the word suck!
is there game day improvement anywhere?
Yes, we are killer at coin tosses. We have won all but 1 or 2. but than of course we differ to put our great defense in harms way
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends Team Brotherhood-"It's not about You,Me or I. It's about building We"..Hue Jackson -
"Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position"
So did basically everyone in the NFL (except Mingo). Are you saying there's no talent difference between the players? Or each team only gets a couple of 'playmakers' and everyone else is just an interchangeable scrub?
I would have to say that in the 2-300 kids picked in the draft that there is very little difference in talent level. In a coaches league it's all about using your guys smarter than they use their guys. Billy B does not have all playmakers but sure wins a lot by out coaching the other guy. We need to find a high IQ guy that lives, eats, breathes football. He should be young, hungry and learn by their mistakes. Hue is a good dude, friendly, personable and tries. But I just don't see long term NFL success in his future. Christmas of next year, he will be quietly sipping Mai Tai's with Mike in Aruba on Jimmy's dime."Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position"
So did basically everyone in the NFL (except Mingo). Are you saying there's no talent difference between the players? Or each team only gets a couple of 'playmakers' and everyone else is just an interchangeable scrub?
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is there game day improvement anywhere?
Yes, we are killer at coin tosses. We have won all but 1 or 2. but than of course we differ to put our great defense in harms way
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You mean that shitty draft and FO that have 8.5 of our 12 sacks, 3 of our 6 ints and the qb that has the most yards and TD and the best qb rating for a browns rook posted? Coaching apparently is never to be held accountable on this board. 0-11 so far 0-7 in regular season and tied for 2nd worst in FRANCHISE history. I really believe we can go all 0-20 first time in nfl btw
You mean that shitty draft and FO that have 8.5 of our 12 sacks, 3 of our 6 ints and the qb that has the most yards and TD and the best qb rating for a browns rook posted? Coaching apparently is never to be held accountable on this board. 0-11 so far 0-7 in regular season and tied for 2nd worst in FRANCHISE history. I really believe we can go all 0-20 first time in nfl btw
Bullshit! Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position.
bullshit is right to both your arguments.
no difference in talent levels? what are you insane? so one player that is able to push another player 10 yards off the line of scrimmage but can't with another player at that same position and your're saying there's no difference in talent? our starters would be lucky to be substitute players on a good team. NO BLUE CHIP talent. none. and that the drafting of this FO cuz god knows this FO got rid of everyone else.
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Just to add, the current IR list:
Joel Bitonio
RG3
Rannell Hall
Nile Lawrence-Stample
Patrick Murray
Rajion Neal
Nate Orchard
Dennis Parks
Jordan Poyer
Austin Reiter
Glenn Winston
Dylan Winn
Current injured but still on roster list:
Joe Haden
Corey Coleman
Josh McCown
Seth Devalve
Marcus Burley
Finally, Desmond Bryant is on the NFI list for the year.
So by my count that's 8 players who have started a game for us this year, that have been missing for large portions of the season, plus Bryant who would be a starter. I know all teams get injuries but that's half a team, basically. In particular, in Haden, Bitonio, Coleman, Bryant, Orchard, McCown/RG3 and Poyer (and if you're feeling generous throw Reiter in as well) would be key players for this team. Add in guys who have missed games and come back - Erving, Nassib for example - and you get a team that's been decimated by injuries and is now relying on low round rookies and scrubs to step up in their place.
Haden -> Body Calhoun
Bitonio -> Bailey
Coleman -> Louis
Bryant -> Meder
Orchard -> Schobert
McCown/RG3 -> Kessler/Hogan
Poyer -> Howard
You're telling me there's not a huge drop off in talent level from the guy on the left to the guy on the right? Maybe not everyone we're missing is an all-pro, but plenty are key contributors for this team with talent much greater than the guy coming in.
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You mean that shitty draft and FO that have 8.5 of our 12 sacks, 3 of our 6 ints and the qb that has the most yards and TD and the best qb rating for a browns rook posted? Coaching apparently is never to be held accountable on this board. 0-11 so far 0-7 in regular season and tied for 2nd worst in FRANCHISE history. I really believe we can go all 0-20 first time in nfl btw
Bullshit! Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position.
bullshit is right to both your arguments.
no difference in talent levels? what are you insane? so one player that is able to push another player 10 yards off the line of scrimmage but can't with another player at that same position and your're saying there's no difference in talent? our starters would be lucky to be substitute players on a good team. NO BLUE CHIP talent. none. and that the drafting of this FO cuz god knows this FO got rid of everyone else.
We don't have the playmakers because we traded them away for numbers. We need those blue chip guys. They are the exceptions in the draft though. Why does one guy suck here, then go somewhere else and play well? Motivation? Game planning his specific skills? Luck? One team plugs in a second rounder and does well and another team takes a high first for bust. It would seem to me that HS and College coaches are supposed to be teachers first. At the pro level it's about being a chess master and motivation guru. Sam was a quiet motivation expert, Cowhere was a more firey type but getting your team ready and motivated to win is huge.bullshit is right to both your arguments.
no difference in talent levels? what are you insane? so one player that is able to push another player 10 yards off the line of scrimmage but can't with another player at that same position and your're saying there's no difference in talent? our starters would be lucky to be substitute players on a good team. NO BLUE CHIP talent. none. and that the drafting of this FO cuz god knows this FO got rid of everyone else.
Go Browns...sigh
Go Cav's... Defend it with pride!
Go Tribe....Bring it Home!
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Who sucked here then went on to be great elsewhere? As far as I can see, there are a few ex-browns around the league doing well - TJ Ward, Jabaal Sheard, Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz (shout out to Tom Heckert btw) - but they were all good players in Cleveland first. Letting them go was the mistake (shout out to Ray Farmer), sure, but it's not like we're seeing greg little, or donte whitner, or paul kruger, or brandon weeden, or basically anyone that sucked in cleveland going on to do great things elsewhere.
Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting, but it's not like there's a trend.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
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Watching the Cards and Seahawks get to 3-3 OT game because of defenses makes me sick when I think of today's game against Cincy.
Watching the Cards and Seahawks get to 3-3 OT game because of defenses makes me sick when I think of today's game against Cincy.
Right, now think what both of those offenses would do to the browns. Those defenses are built on solid foundations that havent been revamped year after year. You could take both those dc's snd put em on the browns this year and not much changes. Thats thr calue in sticking with a coaching staff for years. Both of those entire coaching staffs could be on tje browns this season and we'd be exactly where webare and people like ghoolie would be calling them house ngrs that need to be fired asap.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree and sorry I didn't clarify. We sorely need some star players. Have forever now. Seems like Cribbs is about as big a name that we've had here. Pryor has real potential and by this time next week we should have him locked in to an extension.....or, he gets traded to Green Bay. They want him. Haden comes to play and plays his position well. Ball hawk doesn't come to mind thinking about him though. He may get traded too. Crap, I'm to the point that if we have the number one pick plus 3 other first rounders, take 4 QBs, God only knows that we need em.agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
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Watching the Cards and Seahawks get to 3-3 OT game because of defenses makes me sick when I think of today's game against Cincy.
Wow, 6-6 tie in OT. Guess I should have watched. Time to drag out the history books for the last time (if ever) a 5 quarter OT game ever went without a TD being scored.
Wow, 6-6 tie in OT. Guess I should have watched. Time to drag out the history books for the last time (if ever) a 5 quarter OT game ever went without a TD being scored.
Oh you missed a heck of an ending. BOTH kickers missed old time XP distance FG's to get the win. Never thought that was possible in the NFL.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
If they stay and don't move on.I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
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Get the deals done as soon as possible. Like with Pryor, he wants to be in Cleveland, playing with Hue Jackson - the guy who gave him a chance in three separate places. Get him signed for a long term, team friendly as possible deal, and do it now. Good news is, they're in talks already. Same with Bitonio, he's eligible for a new deal from next offseason I think (maybe one after that), and Kirksey.
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At least Pryor you can call a vet now even though he is playing a new position. They are in talks with him and I hope he stays. This week can prove to be interesting as far as any trades made. Local media at times has Romo here, haden in Carolina...but they're just speculation. Does the fo value draft picks more than good vets? My biggest concern still lies with a baseball doing a football job. Football guys couldn't either so who knows? But that one worries me
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