I HATE RAY HORTON
-
Im not that impressed with garrett. He seems underpiwered to me and makes his way going around college tackles cause if they get their hands on him he disappears. Thats not what i want out of our 1st pick....a guy thats at leadt 2-3 years away from nfl levels of power. I mean look at ogbah and nassib who are much bigger than him, they need another year or two in the weight room before they're at the elite level we need.
You are aware he is playing with a lingering high ankle sprain and gets double teamed and schemed for every play? And he is 6'5 270 and far faster/quicker than those other two. Judge after the combine.
How about a little power as he pushes Tenn. LT back into the QB causing an early throw for an int. at the END of the 2nd overtime after a full game plus 1/2 hour of fighting through mostly double teams. He said after the game he was playing at about 65-70% because of the injury. I think the pros know more about him than anyone here and that is why he is considered the best player in the 2017 draft.
You are aware he is playing with a lingering high ankle sprain and gets double teamed and schemed for every play? And he is 6'5 270 and far faster/quicker than those other two. Judge after the combine.
0
No i was not aware he was playing injured. He lookef fast against bama though, but didnr look no 270 though. If bamas ol got a hold of him he let his arms get crumpled. Not sure if thats technique or lack of strength. Ill withhold judgement for now but from little ive seen he wiuldnt be on my radar righ now if i worked for the browns fo. Moreso because we already invested two picks at that pisition last year and we have such glaring needs elsewhere, like OL. Id like to see what we have in nassib and ogbah before we use another high pick on that position.
Next year qb and ol need to take precedent.
-
You are aware he is playing with a lingering high ankle sprain and gets double teamed and schemed for every play? And he is 6'5 270 and far faster/quicker than those other two. Judge after the combine.
0
No i was not aware he was playing injured. He lookef fast against bama though, but didnr look no 270 though. If bamas ol got a hold of him he let his arms get crumpled. Not sure if thats technique or lack of strength. Ill withhold judgement for now but from little ive seen he wiuldnt be on my radar righ now if i worked for the browns fo. Moreso because we already invested two picks at that pisition last year and we have such glaring needs elsewhere, like OL. Id like to see what we have in nassib and ogbah before we use another high pick on that position.
Next year qb and ol need to take precedent.
No i was not aware he was playing injured. He lookef fast against bama though, but didnr look no 270 though. If bamas ol got a hold of him he let his arms get crumpled. Not sure if thats technique or lack of strength. Ill withhold judgement for now but from little ive seen he wiuldnt be on my radar righ now if i worked for the browns fo. Moreso because we already invested two picks at that pisition last year and we have such glaring needs elsewhere, like OL. Id like to see what we have in nassib and ogbah before we use another high pick on that position.
Next year qb and ol need to take precedent.
I generally disagree with QB and OL taking precedent. Obviously it's contingent on this year, but we need to see what Coleman can do at right tackle, and Reiter looked excellent at center by all accounts. Not to say we're set there, but those two guys could be fine. QB is done to death, everyone knows the deal. Point being, we have guys who can grow in to those positions and by next year become solid players.
In the secondary, however, we have a couple of decent strong safeties, an often injured former pro bowl CB on a bloated contract, and that's about it. Sure, if Haden is playing 16 games then that's one side sorted, but even so, we still are left with Jamar Taylor starting opposite (Williams will be cut probably) and some undrafted rookies. Poyer has done nothing of note at free safety.
At edge rusher, we invested a relatively high pick in Ogbah, but starting across from him is fourth rounder, Joe Schobert, who has 12 tackles and no sacks through seven games. Nassib is playing DE and as much as you (and others including me to a degree) want to see a switch to a 4-3 it won't be happening. Nassib will continue to play the 5-tech, Shelton the nose, and hopefully we can pick someone up to replace Meder.
Just my 2c of course, everything is subjective.
-
Yeah if there was a jalen ramsey out there perhaps. But i have zero confidence in almost our entire o line and this has been going on for years. Im in no mood anymore for "well lets wait to see how this late rounder or udfa pans out". They never do. Our two best o lineman are 1st and 2nd rounders.
-
And our worst OL is a first rounder, while the next best, Greco, was a third rounder. Coleman was only a third rounder, not like he's a UDFA we're hoping for miracles from. He's a guy some projected to go in round two, but fell for whatever reasons and we got (in theory) decent value on. He's been injured and just coming back to playing for the first time. Give him a few games to try to do something before declaring him a bust?
-
1) Our entire secondary sucks. Bad. The safeties are NOT fine - rather, we're forced to play backup-level players because we simply don't have the talent.
2) Our ILB's suck. Bad. Just stop it with the homerism.
3) Schobert isn't a starter - they play both ILB's and call Ogbah an OLB even though he's a DL lined up elsewhere. Go check the snap count stats on DBN.. Schobert played all of 3 on Sunday. So, yes, he has no stats..... because he doesn't play.
DL was dreadful this past week, but so was the entire defense. They need talent at every position, and they just don't have it yet. Nassib is a fine complementary player, but not by himself.
If the draft is QB at 1 and then nothing but D except for maybe another OL, that's fine by me.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Speaking of the offense, I was just doing a little looking at the stats for this season:
rush yards per game: 120 (8th in NFL)
pass yards per game: 228 (24th)
total ypg: 348 (16th)
rush ypc: 5.1 (2nd)
pass ypa: 6.9 (21st)
red zone efficiency 61% (12th)
points per game: 18.6 (27th)
So with reasonable yards per game, and knowing that there's only so many yards you can move before scoring, why the disparity? One final stat - drives starting inside own 20 yard line: 23/82 ~ 28% (28th in NFL).
So while it's not a clear vindication of everything on offense, it is clear that the O is capable of moving the ball, at least in fits and start, but usually has so far to go that they struggle to put points on the board. Inside the red zone, we're not terrible - 12th is pretty acceptable for the state of this team right now. The run game is boom or bust, for sure, but with some better line play should continue to be a strength. We just need to get more out of our D, and to a lesser degree, special teams.
-
1) Our entire secondary sucks. Bad. The safeties are NOT fine - rather, we're forced to play backup-level players because we simply don't have the talent.
2) Our ILB's suck. Bad. Just stop it with the homerism.
3) Schobert isn't a starter - they play both ILB's and call Ogbah an OLB even though he's a DL lined up elsewhere. Go check the snap count stats on DBN.. Schobert played all of 3 on Sunday. So, yes, he has no stats..... because he doesn't play.
DL was dreadful this past week, but so was the entire defense. They need talent at every position, and they just don't have it yet. Nassib is a fine complementary player, but not by himself.
If the draft is QB at 1 and then nothing but D except for maybe another OL, that's fine by me.
1) Our entire secondary sucks. Bad. The safeties are NOT fine - rather, we're forced to play backup-level players because we simply don't have the talent.
Campbell and Kindred have shown some ability to be strong safeties. That's all I'm saying. Free safety is terrible, and the uninjured corners are arguably worse.
2) Our ILB's suck. Bad. Just stop it with the homerism.
They're not great, but other positions are worse. Kirksey is OK.
3) Schobert isn't a starter - they play both ILB's and call Ogbah an OLB even though he's a DL lined up elsewhere. Go check the snap count stats on DBN.. Schobert played all of 3 on Sunday. So, yes, he has no stats..... because he doesn't play.
This is true - it also means the same as what I say, that the FO will be looking to get a new OLB because Ray Horton likes his 3-4 and we're only playing a lot of 4-3 this year because of the 'talent' available.
DL was dreadful this past week, but so was the entire defense. They need talent at every position, and they just don't have it yet. Nassib is a fine complementary player, but not by himself.
Yes.
If the draft is QB at 1 and then nothing but D except for maybe another OL, that's fine by me.
Dependent on Kessler, I agree. And by another OL, I mean a center.
-
It seems like we're using schobert more as a cover and run stopping olb'er. I didnt see much pass rushing out of him. And in that respect what ive seen of him he's fine. Again i would prefer us in a 4-3 so nassib and ogbah are always on the field together and schoberts the olb'er where he can blitz from
-
You are aware he is playing with a lingering high ankle sprain and gets double teamed and schemed for every play? And he is 6'5 270 and far faster/quicker than those other two. Judge after the combine.
0
No i was not aware he was playing injured. He lookef fast against bama though, but didnr look no 270 though. If bamas ol got a hold of him he let his arms get crumpled. Not sure if thats technique or lack of strength. Ill withhold judgement for now but from little ive seen he wiuldnt be on my radar righ now if i worked for the browns fo. Moreso because we already invested two picks at that pisition last year and we have such glaring needs elsewhere, like OL. Id like to see what we have in nassib and ogbah before we use another high pick on that position.
Next year qb and ol need to take precedent.
One note on Kirksey... he may not be the guy to be our lead ILB, but the other guy next to the guy. He had a three-play sequence vs. Cinci where he stuffed a run with a gap shot, sacked Dalton and then defended a pass 20 yards downfield. He has the tools.
... but (Garrett) didnr look no 270 though.
Next year qb and ol need to take precedent.
Agree... Garrett looked a lot leaner than 270.
Jury is still out on QB, but OL future looks promising if we find the answer at RT on our roster.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
That's where I am on Kirksey as well. He's clearly not Luke Kuechly, but he could definitely be D'Qwell Jackson, hopefully tackling further upfield.
I remember hearing on sunday something about Kirksey's tackles for 2 yards or less being somewhere very high, like 4th or 5th? A somewhat arbitrary stat I guess, but it shows he's tackling at least close to the LoS, as opposed to just racking up tackles covering for others.
-
I think kirksey might lead the league right now in that stat. Ive been enciuraged this year by him and davis. Both those guys are getting upfield way better on run plays.
-
One note on Kirksey... he may not be the guy to be our lead ILB, but the other guy next to the guy. He had a three-play sequence vs. Cinci where he stuffed a run with a gap shot, sacked Dalton and then defended a pass 20 yards downfield. He has the tools.
... but (Garrett) didnr look no 270 though.
Next year qb and ol need to take precedent.
Agree... Garrett looked a lot leaner than 270.
Jury is still out on QB, but OL future looks promising if we find the answer at RT on our roster.
One note on Kirksey... he may not be the guy to be our lead ILB, but the other guy next to the guy. He had a three-play sequence vs. Cinci where he stuffed a run with a gap shot, sacked Dalton and then defended a pass 20 yards downfield. He has the tools.
Agree... Garrett looked a lot leaner than 270.
Jury is still out on QB, but OL future looks promising if we find the answer at RT on our roster.
Kirksey can be adequate If surrounded by enough talent. The Jackson comparison look to be correct.
RE: OL, you're not giving up on Erving yet Tour? I liked what I saw of Reiter until he got hurt.
-
One note on Kirksey... he may not be the guy to be our lead ILB, but the other guy next to the guy. He had a three-play sequence vs. Cinci where he stuffed a run with a gap shot, sacked Dalton and then defended a pass 20 yards downfield. He has the tools.
Agree... Garrett looked a lot leaner than 270.
Jury is still out on QB, but OL future looks promising if we find the answer at RT on our roster.
Kirksey can be adequate If surrounded by enough talent. The Jackson comparison look to be correct.
RE: OL, you're not giving up on Erving yet Tour? I liked what I saw of Reiter until he got hurt.
Kirksey can be adequate If surrounded by enough talent. The Jackson comparison look to be correct.
RE: OL, you're not giving up on Erving yet Tour? I liked what I saw of Reiter until he got hurt.
lol... I think you first have to be up, to give up...
Offensive Tackle Reviews
- Cameron Erving: FSU (02-11-15) vs. OK St/ND - no kick; lotta waist bend; feet look heavy; fires out on run blocks; focus? Head? ND's DE Sheldon Day gave fits with low edge rush. I can see as an interior prospect, but would like to see tape on him there.
Once we had a serious look at him inside, it was too late. Even at, per some, his "natural" position of Center.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Kirksey can be adequate If surrounded by enough talent. The Jackson comparison look to be correct.
RE: OL, you're not giving up on Erving yet Tour? I liked what I saw of Reiter until he got hurt.
lol... I think you first have to be up, to give up...
Offensive Tackle Reviews
- Cameron Erving: FSU (02-11-15) vs. OK St/ND - no kick; lotta waist bend; feet look heavy; fires out on run blocks; focus? Head? ND's DE Sheldon Day gave fits with low edge rush. I can see as an interior prospect, but would like to see tape on him there.
Once we had a serious look at him inside, it was too late. Even at, per some, his "natural" position of Center.
-
cant say Im a Horton fan(cause Im not)....but.....he has the same shit(or worse) that Oneill had.....and NEITHER coach is gonna get gold from this shit....
For the billionth time.....this team lacks TALENT....not coaching.....we are losing because of TALENT, not coaching.....our D sucks because it has no TALENT, not because of coaching.....
cant say Im a Horton fan(cause Im not)....but.....he has the same shit(or worse) that Oneill had.....and NEITHER coach is gonna get gold from this shit....
For the billionth time.....this team lacks TALENT....not coaching.....we are losing because of TALENT, not coaching.....our D sucks because it has no TALENT, not because of coaching.....
i look at horton on the sidelines and all game long, he's just shaking his head. Probably thinking the same thing you are mud...
-
Of course talent is the issue. Its the issue all over the team. No coach can come in here and get these guys to beat other guys on the field that are demonstrably (for the moment) better than them. If these guys havent been properly developed in a few years than its coaching. But or FO traded down so we dodnt get joey bosa or any of the "ready right fucking now" mother fuckers. I promise you if it had been up to hue or horton we would have taken either one of those cocksucking twinkies or joey babosa. But haslem has structured this franchise such that the coaches arent the final shot callers on draft say. We shall see if this works out or not.
Me personally i like the idea of trading down for more picks if and only if the organization can prove they find later round gems and develop them. If we cant then we have yo take guys lime bosa or mack or watkins when its our pick. Please none of you act like vince lonbardi could come out of his grave and coach this up. Ghoolie is trolling you guys out hard
Of course talent is the issue. Its the issue all over the team. No coach can come in here and get these guys to beat other guys on the field that are demonstrably (for the moment) better than them. If these guys havent been properly developed in a few years than its coaching. But or FO traded down so we dodnt get joey bosa or any of the "ready right fucking now" mother fuckers. I promise you if it had been up to hue or horton we would have taken either one of those cocksucking twinkies or joey babosa. But haslem has structured this franchise such that the coaches arent the final shot callers on draft say. We shall see if this works out or not.
Me personally i like the idea of trading down for more picks if and only if the organization can prove they find later round gems and develop them. If we cant then we have yo take guys lime bosa or mack or watkins when its our pick. Please none of you act like vince lonbardi could come out of his grave and coach this up. Ghoolie is trolling you guys out hard
we never make the right picks...maybe 1 out of a fucking million and thats it...not enough to build a good team...this jets team is ripe for a pounding with their issues but i guarantee you we will get butchered this sunday....fucking washed up forte will probably get 150 on the ground and the bearded one will probably throw for 3 td's...oh well, at least we got the tribe..i knew francona would get them a championship...guy is a true winner...
-
agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
they should have kept tj ward yrs ago also...whitner sucked...kruger was ok his first yr but went downhill and dansby has seen better days. gipson and schwartz is where we fucked up. Don't know what it is, but up to this point, from 99 to present day, this organization does not know football...they are really good at tripping over themselves.
-
I am no fan of Hortons, but right now we have zero talent on D. None.
Bullshit! Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position. It takes the coach to plan the chess match and utilize that talent in the best way possible. Only once in a while does a player come in and Excell. That's your playmaker. Coaching is everything in the NFL. Horton couldn't coach here in the past, didn't do so great for 2 other teams and is back. Now he's part owner of an 0-7 record. He sucked then, sucks today and will suck tomorrow. Him and whoever thought he is some sort of great NFL DC should all be shitcanned. Patience my ass! When a good HC takes over, the changes are immediate and for the better. I have witnessed this happen several times before and will happen again. How's the ST play going? O line? QB life expectancy? D line? D backfield? 2 minute drill? Other than new faces, is there game day improvement anywhere? All I have seen is redefining the word suck!
Bullshit! Each and every one excelled in college and know how to play their position. It takes the coach to plan the chess match and utilize that talent in the best way possible. Only once in a while does a player come in and Excell. That's your playmaker. Coaching is everything in the NFL. Horton couldn't coach here in the past, didn't do so great for 2 other teams and is back. Now he's part owner of an 0-7 record. He sucked then, sucks today and will suck tomorrow. Him and whoever thought he is some sort of great NFL DC should all be shitcanned. Patience my ass! When a good HC takes over, the changes are immediate and for the better. I have witnessed this happen several times before and will happen again. How's the ST play going? O line? QB life expectancy? D line? D backfield? 2 minute drill? Other than new faces, is there game day improvement anywhere? All I have seen is redefining the word suck!
there is no improvement...in fact we are regressing...we lose to the jets sunday, we go 0-16....jets are so beatable now but with this shit team, i don't know how we do it....
-
cant say Im a Horton fan(cause Im not)....but.....he has the same shit(or worse) that Oneill had.....and NEITHER coach is gonna get gold from this shit....
For the billionth time.....this team lacks TALENT....not coaching.....we are losing because of TALENT, not coaching.....our D sucks because it has no TALENT, not because of coaching.....
i look at horton on the sidelines and all game long, he's just shaking his head. Probably thinking the same thing you are mud...
i look at horton on the sidelines and all game long, he's just shaking his head. Probably thinking the same thing you are mud...
we never make the right picks...maybe 1 out of a fucking million and thats it...not enough to build a good team...this jets team is ripe for a pounding with their issues but i guarantee you we will get butchered this sunday....fucking washed up forte will probably get 150 on the ground and the bearded one will probably throw for 3 td's...oh well, at least we got the tribe..i knew francona would get them a championship...guy is a true winner...
they should have kept tj ward yrs ago also...whitner sucked...kruger was ok his first yr but went downhill and dansby has seen better days. gipson and schwartz is where we fucked up. Don't know what it is, but up to this point, from 99 to present day, this organization does not know football...they are really good at tripping over themselves.
there is no improvement...in fact we are regressing...we lose to the jets sunday, we go 0-16....jets are so beatable now but with this shit team, i don't know how we do it....
All I do is bitch52...Watch..understand.. then Bitch.1. Horton is mostly in what they call a booth.. 2. Due to a collection of dumb ass GM drafting. & 3. Piss poor GM's locking up our good talent. We have watched this FO 1. make fair offers to Mack & Schwartz & still lost 5 FA's past their control. 2.Knowing this team has "No Talent" & loss of FA's. Understood they had to pass on the best talent now, for the possible opportunity to land more Talent on your? team in future. They still may have landed on 3. #4--How the hell does Hartline,Whitner,Kruger,Gilbert & Manhell look now?..BTW--They tried to treat Gordon with class & he still took a sh*t on them.. You can't fix a Factory of Sadness in your 1st Season.. Guess, Some of us can start to see it & some just stayed locked in the Factory..Go Browns!!
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login