Our 2016 Draft Class Game: Find the "Bust"
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And that was one of my points... Elway did nothing significant in his first year in FA... and sonofabitch neither did we. Additionally I'll argue that the depths at which the two franchises started their rebuilds are not similar. So if we are still relatively inactive in the 2017 FA market I will not be surprised.
Starting FAs on the SB
Ware (Dallas 2014), Talib (NE 2014), Ward (OUCH 2014), Harris Jr. (UDFA 2011), Marshall (Jax 2013), Stewart (Ravens 2015).Years and the type of FA are important. The 2014 triplets were all UFAs attracted to a team on the verge of a ring... ditto Stewart. Harris was a UDFA "find". Marshall was cut by JAX and spent nearly all of 2013 on the Broncos' PS... so I'll guess Elway had no clue he'd end up as good as he did.
The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
Yup... I can only recall a vet FA saying, "I'm tired of winning. I want to get in on the ground floor of a rebuilding franchise," in a couple instances. And they were when the player was following a coach, e.g., Willie McGinest following Romeo to CLE.
And that's fine... FAs are a great source of final pieces to complete the puzzle. Building blocks at the start of a long term project? Not so much...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Other than Von I don't think 2011 (Elway's first year) was the key year to the change other than that was when he began the draft/fa process in earnest. He has used it since that time yearly quite extensively. Starting SB players just on the D besides Von (Draft) were Ware (Dallas), Talib (NE), Ward (OUCH), Wolfe (Draft), Jackson (Draft), Travathan (Draft), Harris Jr. (UFA), Marshall (Jax), Williams (Draft), Stewart (Ravens). So 5 drafted and 5 FA and one UFA on a crushing defense. It took 5 years to become a SB winning D. Of course you can't underestimate the signing of FA Manning in 2012 to jump start the O to go with that D, but D has always been their real key to providing the ball regularly to the O. I've said from day one that this is the key also to a Browns playoff team yearly. But then I am a biased D guy. I think all the great teams start there.
EDIT: And of course last night made Elway look like a genius for letting the $70 Mil man go to Houston while maintaining that crushing D. And what do they have that really makes it go? 2 really great pass rushers disrupting everything along with cover corners.
PS-this is what I want the Browns D to look like within 5 years. Just do what Elway has done and get a really good D coordinator to run it. Hell, steal Elway's!
And that was one of my points... Elway did nothing significant in his first year in FA... and sonofabitch neither did we. Additionally I'll argue that the depths at which the two franchises started their rebuilds are not similar. So if we are still relatively inactive in the 2017 FA market I will not be surprised.
Starting FAs on the SB
Ware (Dallas 2014), Talib (NE 2014), Ward (OUCH 2014), Harris Jr. (UDFA 2011), Marshall (Jax 2013), Stewart (Ravens 2015).Years and the type of FA are important. The 2014 triplets were all UFAs attracted to a team on the verge of a ring... ditto Stewart. Harris was a UDFA "find". Marshall was cut by JAX and spent nearly all of 2013 on the Broncos' PS... so I'll guess Elway had no clue he'd end up as good as he did.
You're creating a myth in your rearview mirror.
And that was one of my points... Elway did nothing significant in his first year in FA... and sonofabitch neither did we. Additionally I'll argue that the depths at which the two franchises started their rebuilds are not similar. So if we are still relatively inactive in the 2017 FA market I will not be surprised.
Starting FAs on the SB
Ware (Dallas 2014), Talib (NE 2014), Ward (OUCH 2014), Harris Jr. (UDFA 2011), Marshall (Jax 2013), Stewart (Ravens 2015).Years and the type of FA are important. The 2014 triplets were all UFAs attracted to a team on the verge of a ring... ditto Stewart. Harris was a UDFA "find". Marshall was cut by JAX and spent nearly all of 2013 on the Broncos' PS... so I'll guess Elway had no clue he'd end up as good as he did.
You're creating a myth in your rearview mirror.
If the Browns commit hard to D in the draft and not trade everything down again, then maybe some of those quality free agents will want to become a part of it. And no I don't think we are starting on the same level as Denver. Never said this would be easy. But it's better than doing the same things over and over again with the same shitty results. And you are implying that Elway was just a lucky stupid fuck. We disagree. He was using draft and fa to make that team a contender. We could learn something from that.
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I did not realize Elway personally scouted every one of his FA signings...
Of course finding a UDFA CB that becomes a quality starter is "luck".
I'll give him credit for hiring Kubiak and charming Phillips and Manning into joining the effort, but I'm not inclined to canonize him for his every move.
As for committing to D... matters not. Hitting on picks, no matter the side of the ball, is what matters. Do that and the FAs will follow.
Which brings me back to my main reason for starting this thread...
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No one drafted 3rd round and on can really be a bust in my opinion.. even second round is iffy.
But any player you draft in the first round that isn't an elite player for your team.. is a bust.
In our draft, the bust is definitely Corey Coleman. He will show flashes, but won't stay healthy and will be a solid #2 receiver, but never a consistent #1. When you draft a receiver first round, he better be your #1 receiver for the next 10 years, or he's a bust.
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And that was one of my points... Elway did nothing significant in his first year in FA... and sonofabitch neither did we. Additionally I'll argue that the depths at which the two franchises started their rebuilds are not similar. So if we are still relatively inactive in the 2017 FA market I will not be surprised.
Starting FAs on the SB
Ware (Dallas 2014), Talib (NE 2014), Ward (OUCH 2014), Harris Jr. (UDFA 2011), Marshall (Jax 2013), Stewart (Ravens 2015).Years and the type of FA are important. The 2014 triplets were all UFAs attracted to a team on the verge of a ring... ditto Stewart. Harris was a UDFA "find". Marshall was cut by JAX and spent nearly all of 2013 on the Broncos' PS... so I'll guess Elway had no clue he'd end up as good as he did.
The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
Yup... I can only recall a vet FA saying, "I'm tired of winning. I want to get in on the ground floor of a rebuilding franchise," in a couple instances. And they were when the player was following a coach, e.g., Willie McGinest following Romeo to CLE.
And that's fine... FAs are a great source of final pieces to complete the puzzle. Building blocks at the start of a long term project? Not so much...
Well stated by both of you. Money alone draws "gold diggers". Top performers who are free agents want to win NOW & they will go where that seems likely, not to the Browns at this point. I want players with pride, not just a desire for a big pay day.
Mike
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No one drafted 3rd round and on can really be a bust in my opinion.. even second round is iffy.
But any player you draft in the first round that isn't an elite player for your team.. is a bust.
In our draft, the bust is definitely Corey Coleman. He will show flashes, but won't stay healthy and will be a solid #2 receiver, but never a consistent #1. When you draft a receiver first round, he better be your #1 receiver for the next 10 years, or he's a bust.
No one drafted 3rd round and on can really be a bust in my opinion.. even second round is iffy.
But any player you draft in the first round that isn't an elite player for your team.. is a bust.
In our draft, the bust is definitely Corey Coleman. He will show flashes, but won't stay healthy and will be a solid #2 receiver, but never a consistent #1. When you draft a receiver first round, he better be your #1 receiver for the next 10 years, or he's a bust.
Can't stay healthy with that infamous recurring injury, a broken hand...right.
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No one drafted 3rd round and on can really be a bust in my opinion.. even second round is iffy.
But any player you draft in the first round that isn't an elite player for your team.. is a bust.
In our draft, the bust is definitely Corey Coleman. He will show flashes, but won't stay healthy and will be a solid #2 receiver, but never a consistent #1. When you draft a receiver first round, he better be your #1 receiver for the next 10 years, or he's a bust.
Can't stay healthy with that infamous recurring injury, a broken hand...right.
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No one drafted 3rd round and on can really be a bust in my opinion.. even second round is iffy.
But any player you draft in the first round that isn't an elite player for your team.. is a bust.
In our draft, the bust is definitely Corey Coleman. He will show flashes, but won't stay healthy and will be a solid #2 receiver, but never a consistent #1. When you draft a receiver first round, he better be your #1 receiver for the next 10 years, or he's a bust.
Can't stay healthy with that infamous recurring injury, a broken hand...right.
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More like can't stay healthy with his numerous soft tissue injuries in college where he was constantly missing multiple games here and there throughout his career
Really?! Then how do the Browns keep finding these guys?
Oh yeah. Harvard ("Harass them, harass them, make them relinquish the ball.") Yes, according to my Cornell wife that is a real Havaad cheer. 
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People that gamble say never bet against a streak. Purely judging from past history....they will all be gone 3 years from now..
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More like can't stay healthy with his numerous soft tissue injuries in college where he was constantly missing multiple games here and there throughout his career
Really?! Then how do the Browns keep finding these guys?
Oh yeah. Harvard ("Harass them, harass them, make them relinquish the ball.") Yes, according to my Cornell wife that is a real Havaad cheer. Really?! Then how do the Browns keep finding these guys?
Oh yeah. Harvard ("Harass them, harass them, make them relinquish the ball.") Yes, according to my Cornell wife that is a real Havaad cheer. Well, it must have worked. Harvard beat Cornell for their first loss of the season and now Cornell has lost 3 in a row.
My son's lab literally overlooks the Cornell football field.
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I'm not as high on Nassib as some others are. Can't deny high energy, crazy motor but doesn't seem strong enough. He reminds me of a white Mingo.
Corey Coleman hasn't played enough to weigh in but think he was a reach at 15
I'm not as high on Nassib as some others are. Can't deny high energy, crazy motor but doesn't seem strong enough.
This.
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A 3rd round pick that doesnt pan out is not a bust though is it?
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Ag,
Which of Elways 2011 signings were key to his rebuild? You know the year he started his massive rebuild all the way from a 4-12 team sandwiched between two 8-8 seasons? Which are still with the team?
Other than Von I don't think 2011 (Elway's first year) was the key year to the change other than that was when he began the draft/fa process in earnest. He has used it since that time yearly quite extensively. Starting SB players just on the D besides Von (Draft) were Ware (Dallas), Talib (NE), Ward (OUCH), Wolfe (Draft), Jackson (Draft), Travathan (Draft), Harris Jr. (UFA), Marshall (Jax), Williams (Draft), Stewart (Ravens). So 5 drafted and 5 FA and one UFA on a crushing defense. It took 5 years to become a SB winning D. Of course you can't underestimate the signing of FA Manning in 2012 to jump start the O to go with that D, but D has always been their real key to providing the ball regularly to the O. I've said from day one that this is the key also to a Browns playoff team yearly. But then I am a biased D guy. I think all the great teams start there.
EDIT: And of course last night made Elway look like a genius for letting the $70 Mil man go to Houston while maintaining that crushing D. And what do they have that really makes it go? 2 really great pass rushers disrupting everything along with cover corners.
PS-this is what I want the Browns D to look like within 5 years. Just do what Elway has done and get a really good D coordinator to run it. Hell, steal Elway's!
EDIT: And of course last night made Elway look like a genius for letting the $70 Mil man go to Houston while maintaining that crushing D. And what do they have that really makes it go? 2 really great pass rushers disrupting everything along with cover corners.
PS-this is what I want the Browns D to look like within 5 years. Just do what Elway has done and get a really good D coordinator to run it. Hell, steal Elway's!
I agree but i'm not giving it 5 years. I think the Broncos and Vikings are proving that you can be really really good in this league with a good defense. We have some very raw parts on defense. Next years draft should be all defense with maybe a couple of OL mixed in and lets go play next year.
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And that was one of my points... Elway did nothing significant in his first year in FA... and sonofabitch neither did we. Additionally I'll argue that the depths at which the two franchises started their rebuilds are not similar. So if we are still relatively inactive in the 2017 FA market I will not be surprised.
Starting FAs on the SB
Ware (Dallas 2014), Talib (NE 2014), Ward (OUCH 2014), Harris Jr. (UDFA 2011), Marshall (Jax 2013), Stewart (Ravens 2015).Years and the type of FA are important. The 2014 triplets were all UFAs attracted to a team on the verge of a ring... ditto Stewart. Harris was a UDFA "find". Marshall was cut by JAX and spent nearly all of 2013 on the Broncos' PS... so I'll guess Elway had no clue he'd end up as good as he did.
The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
Good point...and at least for me, I agree with the FO being averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. We won 3 damn games with guys like Dansby and Whitner making a shit ton of money. No sense spending it on them when its not going to matter in the long run for the team.
I would really like to see this team build the defense though. Build it through the draft and maybe a FA or two and it can be a defense that can scare people and help the offense as well.
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@ghoolie said:
There isn't one bust in the entire draft. These fuckers are really lighting it up. These are the core of building for the future. This beats anything Chuck Noll ever did.
1974 all over again? We shall see.
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The point I want to make about your post Tour is- the guys who are shouting, well, we have a ton of cap room- just go out and sign top FAs. Talents like Ware and Talib aren't coming to warm up around the Browns dumpster fire regardless of what we might offer them. They're going to go to teams that at least have playoff, if not SB aspirations. Plus, we've already seen our FO is currently averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. Maybe that will change if we ever get in playoff contention.
Good point...and at least for me, I agree with the FO being averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. We won 3 damn games with guys like Dansby and Whitner making a shit ton of money. No sense spending it on them when its not going to matter in the long run for the team.
I would really like to see this team build the defense though. Build it through the draft and maybe a FA or two and it can be a defense that can scare people and help the offense as well.
Page 3 and it takes Ghoolie to come closest to my original position... and I think he was being sarcastic.
I do not think there are any certifiable busts in our 2016 draft class... not as of now, not yet. And that has rarely been the case near the midpoint of our class' rookie year. Hell... we have seldom broken camp without being able to ID one. And there've been years when we have gone to bed draft night wondering WTF our FO was thinking.
That's not to say there are not a couple worthy of being on a watch list. But it's too soon to label them IMO.
And, yes, any draftee can bust. Remember Vince Mayle? A classic, Rnd 4 bust from all the way back in 2015.
Good point...and at least for me, I agree with the FO being averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. We won 3 damn games with guys like Dansby and Whitner making a shit ton of money. No sense spending it on them when its not going to matter in the long run for the team.
I would really like to see this team build the defense though. Build it through the draft and maybe a FA or two and it can be a defense that can scare people and help the offense as well.
Speaking of aging vets with fat wallets... Dwayne Bowe.
Vet sprinkling happens at all stages of builds and on both sides of the ball. That was McC last year and Davis this. Both were more role model recruits than studs.
I just hope when the time comes to add final pieces that we don't fall into the big name trap.
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Page 3 and it takes Ghoolie to come closest to my original position... and I think he was being sarcastic.
I do not think there are any certifiable busts in our 2016 draft class... not as of now, not yet. And that has rarely been the case near the midpoint of our class' rookie year. Hell... we have seldom broken camp without being able to ID one. And there've been years when we have gone to bed draft night wondering WTF our FO was thinking.
That's not to say there are not a couple worthy of being on a watch list. But it's too soon to label them IMO.
And, yes, any draftee can bust. Remember Vince Mayle? A classic, Rnd 4 bust from all the way back in 2015.
Good point...and at least for me, I agree with the FO being averse to ageing vets with fat contracts. We won 3 damn games with guys like Dansby and Whitner making a shit ton of money. No sense spending it on them when its not going to matter in the long run for the team.
I would really like to see this team build the defense though. Build it through the draft and maybe a FA or two and it can be a defense that can scare people and help the offense as well.
Speaking of aging vets with fat wallets... Dwayne Bowe.
Vet sprinkling happens at all stages of builds and on both sides of the ball. That was McC last year and Davis this. Both were more role model recruits than studs.
I just hope when the time comes to add final pieces that we don't fall into the big name trap.
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