Our 2016 Draft Class Game: Find the "Bust"
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Muddles - it's fine to look at the production of guys like Starks and Hartline but beyond what Tour said, those guys are pushing or over 30, and they're not the quality required to get a team to the post season. Perhaps they're better than the guys we currently have, but what's the point in that? Give Cooper and Higgins (I've seen enough of Louis to say buh-bye) a year of playing time that they would not otherwise have had, and then we can compare.
Benjamin vs Pryor is a wash, after 8 games of the season - that's with Pryor having played precisely 8 games at receiver, and Benjamin his whole life. Point being, Benjamin has basically hit his ceiling - a solid third choice receiver that can contribute in the return game until he gets the yips. Pryor it basically at his floor, and already as good as Benjamin.
If we're aiming to be a very good team in a couple years, Randy Starks (and Whitner, Gipson, Hartline, Kruger) are not going to be part of that, for *both* age and talent reasons. Maybe Xavier Cooper won't, and I'm not holding out much hope for him in that regard, but it looks like maybe Ibrahim Campbell will be a pretty good strong safety, and can contribute for 10+ years in cleveland, while Whitner would have been a decent strong safety for us for...2 years?
That's not to say I agree with all of the moves this team has made, and I doubt you'll find anywhere, probably even within the FO itself that is 100% on board with all of the moves. For example, I would definitely have made more of an effort to keep Gipson and Schwartz. Signing RG3 was obviously a Hue Jackson move, and he takes the 'credit' for that. I'd like to see more playing time for Higgins or Payton, as Louis has looked like Greg Little incarnate, but if the scheme is calling for a big fast guy, it kinda has to be Louis.
It's shitty luck that the center we brought in from the skins blew out his knee in his one game where he looked a competent starter (as opposed to Erving who always seems to be around the TFLs we take, looking backwards).
Oh, and, you forgot one:
Manziel............................Kessler...................yay!
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Chris-I was thinking the same thing about the age factor as I was reading Mud and Tour on this issue. Got to go with the lesser but younger player if they have at least a chance in the long run of getting better than the old. I understand the FO thinking on it, even if I don't agree with some of the draft choices they made and failed to make. All we have now is the hope they have learned MAJOR lessons from 2016 drafting/fa mistakes. If not then Goolie will have been proven correct on eventual firings.
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Chris-I was thinking the same thing about the age factor as I was reading Mud and Tour on this issue. Got to go with the lesser but younger player if they have at least a chance in the long run of getting better than the old. I understand the FO thinking on it, even if I don't agree with some of the draft choices they made and failed to make. All we have now is the hope they have learned MAJOR lessons from 2016 drafting/fa mistakes. If not then Goolie will have been proven correct on eventual firings.
Chris-I was thinking the same thing about the age factor as I was reading Mud and Tour on this issue. Got to go with the lesser but younger player if they have at least a chance in the long run of getting better than the old. I understand the FO thinking on it, even if I don't agree with some of the draft choices they made and failed to make. All we have now is the hope they have learned MAJOR lessons from 2016 drafting/fa mistakes. If not then Goolie will have been proven correct on eventual firings.
Exactly - I understand the reasoning behind it, and most of the execution. I'm sure if they had this offseason back they'd do some things differently.
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I don't see why Mud has such trouble understanding the strategy here. Are we really talking about Brian Hartline here??
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Refer to the link below and tell me that the 2016 draft isn't arguably the best draft we've had since 1999. I am having a hard time seeing any draft before this with more than two key contributors to the team in the few years after they were drafted. 2010, 2011 and 2012 maybe, that's it.
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Refer to the link below and tell me that the 2016 draft isn't arguably the best draft we've had since 1999. I am having a hard time seeing any draft before this with more than two key contributors to the team in the few years after they were drafted. 2010, 2011 and 2012 maybe, that's it.
Please folks, refer to the link below and tell me that the 2016 draft isn't arguably the best draft we've had since 1999. I am having a hard time seeing any draft before this with more than two key contributors to the team in the few years after they were drafted. 2010, 2011 and 2012 maybe, that's it.
It's hard to look past that 2013 draft, with Barkevious Mingo headlining a list of perennial pro-bowlers in Leon McFadden, Jamoris Slaughter and Garrett Gilkey.
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Please folks, refer to the link below and tell me that the 2016 draft isn't arguably the best draft we've had since 1999. I am having a hard time seeing any draft before this with more than two key contributors to the team in the few years after they were drafted. 2010, 2011 and 2012 maybe, that's it.
It's hard to look past that 2013 draft, with Barkevious Mingo headlining a list of perennial pro-bowlers in Leon McFadden, Jamoris Slaughter and Garrett Gilkey.
It's hard to look past that 2013 draft...
... because the next thing waiting for you is 2012's First Round.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
... because the next thing waiting for you is 2012's First Round.
Trent Richardson scored 12 touchdowns. That doesn't happen by accident. There was at least a mediocre, crowell-level player in there that got destroyed by trades, loss of confidence, fitness, the rest. It's a shame, but what can you do. At least we got a first round pick out of it that turned in to johnny manziel oh fuck it I'd rather have kept richardson.
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If Richardson had the kind of long leash anywhere that Crowell's had he'd be a Pro Bowler.
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But he did not, and he is not. A waste of mediocre talent isn't something I'm going to cry about.
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... because the next thing waiting for you is 2012's First Round.
Trent Richardson scored 12 touchdowns. That doesn't happen by accident. There was at least a mediocre, crowell-level player in there that got destroyed by trades, loss of confidence, fitness, the rest. It's a shame, but what can you do. At least we got a first round pick out of it that turned in to johnny manziel oh fuck it I'd rather have kept richardson.
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That does seem a little harsh on Crowell !
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Chris-I was thinking the same thing about the age factor as I was reading Mud and Tour on this issue. Got to go with the lesser but younger player if they have at least a chance in the long run of getting better than the old. I understand the FO thinking on it, even if I don't agree with some of the draft choices they made and failed to make. All we have now is the hope they have learned MAJOR lessons from 2016 drafting/fa mistakes. If not then Goolie will have been proven correct on eventual firings.
Chris-I was thinking the same thing about the age factor as I was reading
Not saying we should have kept all those guys....just showing how we didnt improve....
Exactly - I understand the reasoning behind it, and most of the execution. I'm sure if they had this offseason back they'd do some things differently.
The execution is my ONLY issue.....again.....not saying Id rather have Hartline or Kruger again.....my point(all along) has been that I wanted BETTER players, when those old schmucks left.......and I wanted the NEW players to be better and actually beat those old schmucks out....instead of just get handed the jobs(w/o working to earn them).....and I wanted them to keep a few old schmucks, in the event that they had zero plan to replace them, until they found viable replacements.....but instead, I got 11 schmucks gone and only a hand ful back....not one person has shown me a convincing argument on WHY a team must get worse, in order to get better......so....my point....is that out of the 11 schmucks who sucked and got shafted outta here, they have only given me a few viable decent replacements and whole big pile of shitty football....
I don't see why Mud has such trouble understanding the strategy here. Are we really talking about Brian Hartline here??
I dont see why you never understand shit and always add your own meaning....read the words......I get the strategy, but just think it sucks and that the execution sucks too....can you get that?
To clarify....I keep hearing about youth and let the young guys play and this drfat class, blah blah blah.....but here's some reality on what the FO gave us....
Replaced Whitner(1 yr removed from multiple pro-bowls) with his back up
Replaced Gipson (1 yr removed from the pro bowl) with his back up
Replaced Starks with his back up
Replaced Mack with his terrible back up
Replaced Schwartz with his udfa back up
Replaced Dansby with a less accomplished Vet
Replaced our entire OLB corps with 2 UDFA's, 1 4th rounder and DE project
Replaced our All pro punter with a udfa
THIS ^^^^^ is not rebuilding....it's tearing down and then plugging in crap....
And the rookies who are supposed to be benefitting from this purge and starting(or playing a lot)....arent
Ogbah is the only rookie starter right now.....
Nassib, Louis, Kessler, Drango, Schobert and Kindred are getting reps.....
And the other 7 are either hurt or on the bench.....
Keeping a few vets and signing a few quality players in FA...(OL anyone?)....coulda woulda been the difference in this team actually winning some games and starting to understand and build toward a "WINNING" culture.....
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You obviously don't "get the strategy," since you question it ad nauseum, basically saying the same thing over and over. We get it, you don't like it. When you actually analyze, your posts are really good. When you get to ranting and repeating yourself, it's brutal.
There are no old guys because old guys take snaps from young guys. Snaps=more important than some nebulous concept of having to beat out vets. You have been told this many times now, yet choose to hit the same talking points over and over anyway.
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I do get it and it sucks.....guess I didnt say that clearly last post....
I have lots of talking points, but you seem to only see this stuff....actually been away for weeks, cause Im ill from what I see....
And....as Ive told you MANY times, no need for you to worry about my posts....Ive asked you to please ignore them, but thats a concept you never got either.....
There's an ignore button....use it....
please
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So if you get it maybe stop wasting your time questioning it in every other thread? We get it. You disagree with it.
I'll look at what I want to.
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So if you get it maybe stop wasting your time questioning it in every other thread? We get it. You disagree with it.
I'll look at what I want to.
So if you get it maybe stop wasting your time questioning it in every other thread?
I'll look at what I want to.
And Ill post what I want...when I want....deal with it....
Not your job to patrol the boards and tell people what they can and cant post...just because we have differing opinions, does not make mine(or anybody elses) opinion less valid.....
Every other thread?.....hell, I barely post every other week anymore......stop being an arrogant puss and talk some football instead of playing forum opinion police....
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I agree with Mud's post. We replaced most of the aging veterans with shit. I don't see how parkey is so much better than coons. I'm optimistic about all of the young guys we're bringing in, and in many ways i like the trade we've made with new england, but I want to win games now.
I'm sick of ESPN or commentators making fun of the browns. The talent on defense is lacking so much it's ridiculous. Coleman looks like he can be a stud and Ogbah and Nassib look good too. I found myself a bit puzzled we drafted so many WR's to find a "diamond in the rough", but I like the effort.
Hue looks like he can be a great coach with more talent.... The players seem to love him and Kessler has looked very good in my opinion.
i'm not (ALL-IN) in the analytics game yet, and I think it would be extremely naive if anyone says that they are. We've yet to see what this strategy can do, but looking for diamond in the roughs and saving Jimmy money shouldn't be the main focus next year, or years to come. I guess if we go 0-16 this year, then we're really setting the bar low for improvement, because if we win one game next year we'll already be progressing.
However, If we continue to trade down and stockpile picks (lets say we have #1 and trade down to #22 next year), I'll be furious and might start doubting jimmy's strategy.
We need playmakers.... people who make an instant difference. Ezekiel Elliot or Carson Wentz didn't need a year to sit and learn.... I don't give a shit if Shon Coleman is a nice guy..... If he sucks and undrafted free agents beat him out why the heck is he on the team? What type of message does that send? If we can trade or cut Kruger or Gilbert, why don't we do the same with Cam Erving.... Can't we all agree that they all suck? People who aren't even playing in the NFL are better than Cam, and I think if anyone thinks he'll be a pro bowl center they're out of their mind.
The positives - offense looks legit. Pryor, Coleman, Crow, Barnidge (hasn't played upto the bar this year).
Next year, lets get some beasts on defense and get a D like the seahawks, panthers or vikings.
last comment: I have no idea how Ray Farmer get jobs talking about football on T.V. after the draft with manziel, gilbert, and vincent mayle.....
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I agree with Mud's post. We replaced most of the aging veterans with shit. I don't see how parkey is so much better than coons. I'm optimistic about all of the young guys we're bringing in, and in many ways i like the trade we've made with new england, but I want to win games now.
I'm sick of ESPN or commentators making fun of the browns. The talent on defense is lacking so much it's ridiculous. Coleman looks like he can be a stud and Ogbah and Nassib look good too. I found myself a bit puzzled we drafted so many WR's to find a "diamond in the rough", but I like the effort.
Hue looks like he can be a great coach with more talent.... The players seem to love him and Kessler has looked very good in my opinion.
i'm not (ALL-IN) in the analytics game yet, and I think it would be extremely naive if anyone says that they are. We've yet to see what this strategy can do, but looking for diamond in the roughs and saving Jimmy money shouldn't be the main focus next year, or years to come. I guess if we go 0-16 this year, then we're really setting the bar low for improvement, because if we win one game next year we'll already be progressing.
However, If we continue to trade down and stockpile picks (lets say we have #1 and trade down to #22 next year), I'll be furious and might start doubting jimmy's strategy.
We need playmakers.... people who make an instant difference. Ezekiel Elliot or Carson Wentz didn't need a year to sit and learn.... I don't give a shit if Shon Coleman is a nice guy..... If he sucks and undrafted free agents beat him out why the heck is he on the team? What type of message does that send? If we can trade or cut Kruger or Gilbert, why don't we do the same with Cam Erving.... Can't we all agree that they all suck? People who aren't even playing in the NFL are better than Cam, and I think if anyone thinks he'll be a pro bowl center they're out of their mind.
The positives - offense looks legit. Pryor, Coleman, Crow, Barnidge (hasn't played upto the bar this year).
Next year, lets get some beasts on defense and get a D like the seahawks, panthers or vikings.
last comment: I have no idea how Ray Farmer get jobs talking about football on T.V. after the draft with manziel, gilbert, and vincent mayle.....
I agree with Mud's post. We replaced most of the aging veterans with shit. I don't see how parkey is so much better than coons. I'm optimistic about all of the young guys we're bringing in, and in many ways i like the trade we've made with new england, but I want to win games now.
Coleman looks like he can be a stud and Ogbah and Nassib look good too. I found myself a bit puzzled we drafted so many WR's to find a "diamond in the rough", but I like the effort.
i'm not (ALL-IN) in the analytics game yet, and I think it would be extremely naive if anyone says that they are. We've yet to see what this strategy can do, but looking for diamond in the roughs and saving Jimmy money shouldn't be the main focus next year, or years to come. I guess if we go 0-16 this year, then we're really setting the bar low for improvement, because if we win one game next year we'll already be progressing.
One - Coons was solid from under 50 but lost his way outside that distance. Patrick Murray was the guy who beat him out don't forget, btw, not Parkey. Parkey, though, was a pro-bowl kicker in 2014, was injured all of 2015, then signed with us like a day before the Miami game, where he missed three of six kicks. Since then he's been batting 1.000 so to speak. So that's on that.
On the analytics driven front office - we brought in Coleman, Ogbah, Nassib and Kessler because they were guys who had played for a long time at a high level in college, shown very good production there. Ogbah and Nassib were #1 and #2 in sacks in college in 2015. Coleman was #1 in TDs. Kessler is a different story but it looks like Hue's 'trust me' is worth more than it appeared at the time.
All of that, picking players based on tangible production, that's driven by analytics. Picking guys based on physical attributes in the hopes that you can make them in to a solid football player, that isn't. That's a low percentage play, especially in cleveland where in recent times it's brought us Erving, Gilbert and Mingo.
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So if you get it maybe stop wasting your time questioning it in every other thread?
I'll look at what I want to.
And Ill post what I want...when I want....deal with it....
Not your job to patrol the boards and tell people what they can and cant post...just because we have differing opinions, does not make mine(or anybody elses) opinion less valid.....
Every other thread?.....hell, I barely post every other week anymore......stop being an arrogant puss and talk some football instead of playing forum opinion police....
And Ill post what I want...when I want....deal with it....
Not your job to patrol the boards and tell people what they can and cant post...just because we have differing opinions, does not make mine(or anybody elses) opinion less valid.....
Every other thread?.....hell, I barely post every other week anymore......stop being an arrogant puss and talk some football instead of playing forum opinion police....
I will deal with it. By pointing out what a raging and repetitive crybaby you are. You calling me a puss is rich.
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