Who takes the fall?
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I am aware we don't have much talent but if you do not know how to freaking tackle then you should of been cut months ago. I saw players standing and watching other players either miss tackles or struggle to make a tackle.
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Wouldnt surprise me to see coaching changes, but I would be shocked if it was Hue.......look.....if Haslam fired Hue after this season, there is NO ONE that would agree to work for him or coach this team.....so no matter how poorly Hue or his team do, he's staying......guaranteed.
All Haslams previous fuck ups have forced his hand here....he cannot do it again.....
And in RE to everyone screaming it's just the D, lets get real and admit the D and the O are equally poor....
Basically....NFL median score is 24 pts a game...scored/allowed....thats the average....
Browns score 19 points a game.....5 pts below average
Browns allow 29 points a game......5 pts below average...
So we are....on average.....5 points worse on O and 5 points worse on D.....maling it a perfect wash for terrible on both sides of the ball....
and it confirms our 10 pts per game differential, which is the worst in the league....dead last....
Sooo.....Yeah, we gotta fix that D.....but we also gotta fix that O...... just the same...
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But were 12th in total offense for yards and 32nd in defense for yards. Lets not start cherry picking stats here our offense has looked better than our defense. Yea we are lousy in the red zone but as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
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points - yards.....guess you can slice it however you want....but points are what wins and yards matter not....
Rankings account for how you stack up against other teams, but matter not in how you win or lose....
Example.....we could give up 400 yds and 30 pts a game and be ranked 25th....
and a year later.....we could give up 400 yds and 30 pts a game and be ranked 10th....
And some would declare that we moved up in the rankings and got better.....but did we?....or did someone else drop?
Rankings all depend on how good the other teams are.....scoring is real.....and our O is at the bottom(again).....
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LaCanfora has a negative thing to say about the Browns? GTFO...
If Jackson goes, then I'd be shocked if most of the FO does not go as well... mostly via resignation. This tear down was epic... and it was by design. To not have the patience to see if your HC build a team over 3 years would be criminal.
The league might well have to step in...
after losing out and showing limited to no improvement i wonder if you'll hold on to that argument...
the league may well step in if we DONT become more competitive. there has been very very little improvement in the past 12 contests aswell there is no sense in wasting a year on a group of coaches who cant teach fundamentals. Our Front Office has been pretty on point we traded mingo and a 5th for colins and a COMP 3rd. We traded a pro bowl punter for ANOTHER pro bowl punter for a net gain. Almost all of the drafted players have made an impact or shown flashes of brilliance. Hell Kessler has a 65% comp rate and a QB Rating of 94+ best of the team. We have brought in some young talent to build with and we are failing in developing them.
I dont want jackson to be fired i like his style and i like his enthusiasm. BUT if he doesn't perform you have to move on that's the nature of the league.
after losing out and showing limited to no improvement i wonder if you'll hold on to that argument...
the league may well step in if we DONT become more competitive. there has been very very little improvement in the past 12 contests aswell there is no sense in wasting a year on a group of coaches who cant teach fundamentals. Our Front Office has been pretty on point we traded mingo and a 5th for colins and a COMP 3rd. We traded a pro bowl punter for ANOTHER pro bowl punter for a net gain. Almost all of the drafted players have made an impact or shown flashes of brilliance. Hell Kessler has a 65% comp rate and a QB Rating of 94+ best of the team. We have brought in some young talent to build with and we are failing in developing them.
I dont want jackson to be fired i like his style and i like his enthusiasm. BUT if he doesn't perform you have to move on that's the nature of the league.
I've already seen us improve through the season. Mostly because it does not take a "W" for me to see it. So our losing out has no bearing on my position.
And please stop including the pre-season in your "analysis".
And I agree with your FO assessment. My point was if Haslam bails on this jointly agreed to "roller coaster" approach, then I would expect some if not all of the FO to resign because he is unfit to work for. I would expect DePo to lead the way.
... how many games do we lose for you to say we may have made a mistake in coaching?
More than 16...
But were 12th in total offense for yards and 32nd in defense for yards. Lets not start cherry picking stats here our offense has looked better than our defense. Yea we are lousy in the red zone but as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
And who is the architect of the offense? Not that it matters since you maintain we have not shown improvement... or at least you had been... until you didn't...
In anticipation of your reply I'll ask, "How do you exceed expectations without improvement?" Just trying to save a little time...
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But were 12th in total offense for yards and 32nd in defense for yards. Lets not start cherry picking stats here our offense has looked better than our defense. Yea we are lousy in the red zone but as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
and I would disagree with this too.....
There were big "expectations" for improvement on our O this year...from many.....considering:
1) we added Coleman(and 3 other WR's), which many claimed as our biggest need
2) Pryor was given a coach that would use him(making it 5 WR's)
3) Hue is an offensive genius AND a QB guru
4) RGIII was gonna return to form and be a big upgrade.
And, those expectations have not been met.....our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....no "notable" changes or upgrades.....
And there were ZERO expectations for this D, except that they'd be terrible....and they are....
1) We were LAST in the league last year, then cut/released/lost 7 out of 11 starters
How could we get better or have ANY expectation except that they would be worse????
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I woke up hoping "I had taken a fall" but no. Shon Coleman is still slotted out wide? Our Db's still cover off, than fall off. Our 1,2,3 strikes your out of Tackling & still a Taylor Dancing in my head..Not even a Tribe of Indians can stop me now...Am Going Fishin!!
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as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
and I would disagree with this too.....
There were big "expectations" for improvement on our O this year...from many.....considering:
1) we added Coleman(and 3 other WR's), which many claimed as our biggest need
2) Pryor was given a coach that would use him(making it 5 WR's)
3) Hue is an offensive genius AND a QB guru
4) RGIII was gonna return to form and be a big upgrade.
And, those expectations have not been met.....our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....no "notable" changes or upgrades.....
And there were ZERO expectations for this D, except that they'd be terrible....and they are....
1) We were LAST in the league last year, then cut/released/lost 7 out of 11 starters
How could we get better or have ANY expectation except that they would be worse????
And, those expectations have not been met.....our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....
Ah... but we did it using more QBs than ever. Rushing is up from 98.1 YPG in '15 to 114.0 this year.
Sorry if your expectations were too high...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Ah... but we did it using more QBs than ever. ... thats comforting???...
Rushing is up from 98.1 YPG in '15 to 114.0 this year.....Ill take that. We are running better than '15....Started a lot like '14(leading the league) before the Mack incident....this year, its the Cam incident....
Sorry if your expectations were too high...HA!.....not even close.....
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after losing out and showing limited to no improvement i wonder if you'll hold on to that argument...
the league may well step in if we DONT become more competitive. there has been very very little improvement in the past 12 contests aswell there is no sense in wasting a year on a group of coaches who cant teach fundamentals. Our Front Office has been pretty on point we traded mingo and a 5th for colins and a COMP 3rd. We traded a pro bowl punter for ANOTHER pro bowl punter for a net gain. Almost all of the drafted players have made an impact or shown flashes of brilliance. Hell Kessler has a 65% comp rate and a QB Rating of 94+ best of the team. We have brought in some young talent to build with and we are failing in developing them.
I dont want jackson to be fired i like his style and i like his enthusiasm. BUT if he doesn't perform you have to move on that's the nature of the league.
I've already seen us improve through the season. Mostly because it does not take a "W" for me to see it. So our losing out has no bearing on my position.
And please stop including the pre-season in your "analysis".
And I agree with your FO assessment. My point was if Haslam bails on this jointly agreed to "roller coaster" approach, then I would expect some if not all of the FO to resign because he is unfit to work for. I would expect DePo to lead the way.
... how many games do we lose for you to say we may have made a mistake in coaching?
More than 16...
But were 12th in total offense for yards and 32nd in defense for yards. Lets not start cherry picking stats here our offense has looked better than our defense. Yea we are lousy in the red zone but as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
And who is the architect of the offense? Not that it matters since you maintain we have not shown improvement... or at least you had been... until you didn't...
In anticipation of your reply I'll ask, "How do you exceed expectations without improvement?" Just trying to save a little time...
In anticipation of your reply I'll ask, "How do you exceed expectations without improvement?" Just trying to save a little time...
With very low expectations
I hope we improve i hope this all works out but it may not and i think its a realistic possibility we may see coaching changes/fo changes. Cleveland Media is reporting the same and I'm sure everyone in the building at berea knows it aswell they have radio there right?
. Also i'll stop using Preseason in my analysis when we stop making the same mistakes we made there.Point blank question for you, How do you feel about the team making the same mistakes they have been making since preseason?
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as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
and I would disagree with this too.....
There were big "expectations" for improvement on our O this year...from many.....considering:
1) we added Coleman(and 3 other WR's), which many claimed as our biggest need
2) Pryor was given a coach that would use him(making it 5 WR's)
3) Hue is an offensive genius AND a QB guru
4) RGIII was gonna return to form and be a big upgrade.
And, those expectations have not been met.....our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....no "notable" changes or upgrades.....
And there were ZERO expectations for this D, except that they'd be terrible....and they are....
1) We were LAST in the league last year, then cut/released/lost 7 out of 11 starters
How could we get better or have ANY expectation except that they would be worse????
and I would disagree with this too.....
There were big "expectations" for improvement on our O this year...from many.....considering:
1) we added Coleman(and 3 other WR's), which many claimed as our biggest need
2) Pryor was given a coach that would use him(making it 5 WR's)
3) Hue is an offensive genius AND a QB guru
4) RGIII was gonna return to form and be a big upgrade.
And, those expectations have not been met.....our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....no "notable" changes or upgrades.....
And there were ZERO expectations for this D, except that they'd be terrible....and they are....
1) We were LAST in the league last year, then cut/released/lost 7 out of 11 starters
How could we get better or have ANY expectation except that they would be worse????
This is what worries me Mud. if Hue is a qb guru, how could he be so wrong on Griffin? Oh, that and at least one head scratching play every game that has you wondering WTF?
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as a whole our offense has played better than expected and defense much worse than expected...
and I would disagree with this too.....
There were big "expectations" for improvement on our O this year...from many.....considering:
1) we added Coleman(and 3 other WR's), which many claimed as our biggest need
2) Pryor was given a coach that would use him(making it 5 WR's)
3) Hue is an offensive genius AND a QB guru
4) RGIII was gonna return to form and be a big upgrade.
And, those expectations have not been met.....our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....no "notable" changes or upgrades.....
And there were ZERO expectations for this D, except that they'd be terrible....and they are....
1) We were LAST in the league last year, then cut/released/lost 7 out of 11 starters
How could we get better or have ANY expectation except that they would be worse????
our O is statistically the same as the last 2 years....no "notable" changes or upgrades.....
Year - 2016 - 2015 - 2014Total yards per game - 355.9 - 331.9 - 324.6Pass yards - 241.9 - 236.4 - 216.6rush yards - 114.0 - 95.6 - 108.0Pass yards per attempt - 6.9 - 6.8 - 7.3rushing yards per attempt - 4.9 - 4.0 - 3.6third down completion - 40.4 - 41.9 - 29.5INTs - 18* - 12 - 16Fumbles - 6* - 18 - 7Sacks - 44* - 53 - 31Points per game - 19.8 - 17.4 - 18.7Total overall offense - 12th - 25th - 23rdBold - best of the last three years*ProjectedStatistically the same? I'd say there's some statistical significance to a lot of that. The run game is statistically better, despite losing two quality linemen. The total offense is a hell of a lot better than previous years. The passing yards (best this year) and third down completions are largely the same as last year, way up on 2014. The fumbles are way down on last year, and comparable to 2014.In fact, looking at the statistics, 2014 and 2015 were quite different in a lot of ways. '14 was poor in the run game but stuck with it, and had a low number of sacks and higher pass yard per attempt - a function of the play action, largely, if I remember rightly. '15 was better in passing (thanks in large part to McCown's golden stretch). So to say anything is statistically the same as those two years is a bit crazy, since those two years are nothing like each other.All this, I should add, while being forced to play a rookie QB for most of the season and missing the top wide receiver, playing by my count at least 8 or 9 different linemen, and god knows how many OL combinations.So sure, bitch about the execution of free agency and not keeping Schwartz and Gipson - I'm right there with you. But bitching about the O, at least saying it's no better, is where I'm going to disagree. -
In anticipation of your reply I'll ask, "How do you exceed expectations without improvement?" Just trying to save a little time...
With very low expectations
I hope we improve i hope this all works out but it may not and i think its a realistic possibility we may see coaching changes/fo changes. Cleveland Media is reporting the same and I'm sure everyone in the building at berea knows it aswell they have radio there right?
. Also i'll stop using Preseason in my analysis when we stop making the same mistakes we made there.Point blank question for you, How do you feel about the team making the same mistakes they have been making since preseason?
With very low expectations
I hope we improve i hope this all works out but it may not and i think its a realistic possibility we may see coaching changes/fo changes. Cleveland Media is reporting the same and I'm sure everyone in the building at berea knows it aswell they have radio there right?
. Also i'll stop using Preseason in my analysis when we stop making the same mistakes we made there.Point blank question for you, How do you feel about the team making the same mistakes they have been making since preseason?
lol... fair enough...
As for "same mistakes"... the main one I imagine you are referring to is missing tackles. At its core that's a function of getting in position which in turn is a function of athleticism... something we lack and something where the deficit grows as we move away from the LOS.
If there are others you think are significant, then I'm going to need a list.
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Could someone please remind me, if 'fundamentals' such as tackling, penalties and ball security are so 'fundamental' - why are they having to be taught by NFL coaches? Perhaps it's a byproduct of various 'agreements' with the NFL, NCAA etc that limit tackling in practice, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for other teams.
Why is it Hue Jackson's fault that an undrafted rookie can't tackle?
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I'm tired of people saying "we have done a rebuild before." On this level? When exactly? We literally got rid of all but two of our plus players in the offseason (Haden and Thomas--and calling the former a "plus player" is generous). THE. TEAM. HAS. NO. EXPERIENCED. TALENT. There is not a person on earth that could win 4 games with this group next year. It's absurd to even discuss firing Hue because you can't give his coaching job a real evaluation with the lack of talent on this team. Stop it. You're hurting the Browns.
Exactly.....this team doesn't have that much talent on it. Collins will help that on defense. For everyone who is saying look how great Wentz is and we passed that up. Look at his numbers from last night. 32-43 for 202, 6 yards per pass average. The dude is the ultimate captain check down. With the talent that team has, especially on defense, Kessler could put up those numbers. This team will not win until it can play defense and stop giving up 30+ per game. No team in the league can win giving up that many points.
Exactly.....this team doesn't have that much talent on it. Collins will help that on defense. For everyone who is saying look how great Wentz is and we passed that up. Look at his numbers from last night. 32-43 for 202, 6 yards per pass average. The dude is the ultimate captain check down. With the talent that team has, especially on defense, Kessler could put up those numbers. This team will not win until it can play defense and stop giving up 30+ per game. No team in the league can win giving up that many points.
wentz does not have any real elite recievers...lets see what the eagles do in the offseason...give him some weapons...i don't think he is the capt checkdown as you say...it appears to me he's just managing the game per the eagles game plan...the guy has a cannon of an arm and is accurate...he will be much better down the road...give him some weapons...
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Could someone please remind me, if 'fundamentals' such as tackling, penalties and ball security are so 'fundamental' - why are they having to be taught by NFL coaches? Perhaps it's a byproduct of various 'agreements' with the NFL, NCAA etc that limit tackling in practice, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for other teams.
Why is it Hue Jackson's fault that an undrafted rookie can't tackle?
I think it's the limited practice time allowed. Practice does lead to perfection. Lack of practice leads to ??Could someone please remind me, if 'fundamentals' such as tackling, penalties and ball security are so 'fundamental' - why are they having to be taught by NFL coaches? Perhaps it's a byproduct of various 'agreements' with the NFL, NCAA etc that limit tackling in practice, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for other teams.
Why is it Hue Jackson's fault that an undrafted rookie can't tackle?
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I think it's the limited practice time allowed. Practice does lead to perfection. Lack of practice leads to ??Could someone please remind me, if 'fundamentals' such as tackling, penalties and ball security are so 'fundamental' - why are they having to be taught by NFL coaches? Perhaps it's a byproduct of various 'agreements' with the NFL, NCAA etc that limit tackling in practice, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for other teams.
Why is it Hue Jackson's fault that an undrafted rookie can't tackle?
I think it's the limited practice time allowed. Practice does lead to perfection. Lack of practice leads to ??
... to more reliance on athleticism???
All teams practice under the same restrictions. Not all perform at the same level.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
This is one of the most ridiculous threads that I've read here and I've suffered through more Ghoolie post than I'd care to admit.
I can potentially see a change at DC but Hue will not be fired. As others have stated, Hue won't be fired if only because literally nobody worthy would even consider taking the job and the NFL would absolutely have to either step in and force ownership change or make a "Haslem Rule" making firing a HC impossible for at least 2-3 years, similar to the Stepien Rule in the NBA.
The worst part, some of you dumb dumbs aren't capable of realizing the unbelieveably dire circumstances that would result in firing Hue and are gleefully cheering for it. Absolutely dumbfounding.
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My thoughts exactly, Taco.
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