Move Over Sashi .....

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@the-gipper said:

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Well, if you don't trust him to be a good evaluator and you think he's terrible at his job, and the reports are that the Browns love Mitch Trubisky, it stands to reason that you don't believe Mitch Trubisky is a good football player.

No, it doesn't. That is illogical. I am nothing but logical. I am not trusting "his"...whoever the fuck "he" is.. evaluation of Trubisky. I am trusting my own and the fact that the Browns know they need a QB.

Perfect. Problem solved. We'll just take Myles Garrett instead.

So you're saying that you have the same evaluation of talent of Trubisky that the Browns have?

But I thought the Browns talent evaluation was terrible? So either Trubisky is bad, you're bad, or the Browns know what they're doing.

Tour2ma

I saw that coming...

The Gipper

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

So you're saying that you have the same evaluation of talent of Trubisky that the Browns have?

No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Browns should have the same evaluation of his talent that I do. that they should recognize that they need a QB. That they should recognize that he is likely the prospect they should be "honing in" on.

But I thought the Browns talent evaluation was terrible? So either Trubisky is bad, you're bad, or the Browns know what they're doing.

Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along. Which hopefully they are.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@the-gipper said:

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

So you're saying that you have the same evaluation of talent of Trubisky that the Browns have?

No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Browns should have the same evaluation of his talent that I do. that they should recognize that they need a QB. That they should recognize that he is likely the prospect they should be "honing in" on.

But I thought the Browns talent evaluation was terrible? So either Trubisky is bad, you're bad, or the Browns know what they're doing.

Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along. Which hopefully they are.

So you had your own evaluation of Trubisky before the Browns ever did?

The Gipper

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

So you had your own evaluation of Trubisky before the Browns ever did?

No, that is not what I said. Are you being purposely obtuse, or is this just the way of you?

I mean, now that Trump has been elected is it en vogue to be thick headed? (lets see the reaction that gets)

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@the-gipper said:

No, that is not what I said. Are you being purposely obtuse, or is this just the way of you?

I mean, now that Trump has been elected is it en vogue to be thick headed? (lets see the reaction that gets)

"Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along."

Curious verbiage there for someone who isn't claiming they were the first to do something.

The Gipper

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

"Or Trubuski is good, I am good, and they are smart enough to follow along."

Curious verbiage there for someone who isn't claiming they were the first to do something.

Well, I don't think it is me they have to follow, really. They just have to do the right, smart thing. And I believe drafting Trubisky is that thing.

But, if you want to give me credit, I will take it. How much does that pay?

miktoxic

i like the way some think or know it's a consensus thing, yet throw only one mug out there from the front office to speak of player acquisitions..........sashi.

if it's true that it is a consensus thing then i guess if one get's fired, they all get fired.

and berry was the guy for the colts since 2012? i can name only one good player they had drafted then AND since then.

thank god we got him!

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@miktoxic said:

i like the way some think or know it's a consensus thing, yet throw only one mug out there from the front office to speak of player acquisitions..........sashi.

if it's true that it is a consensus thing then i guess if one get's fired, they all get fired.

and berry was the guy for the colts since 2012? i can name only one good player they had drafted then AND since then.

thank god we got him!

Yeah, if one gets fired, they probably all get fired. That's normally how these things work.

miktoxic

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:
Yeah, if one gets fired, they probably all get fired. That's normally how these things work.

yeah, i know arod. amazing how some can think a coordinator here or there can get canned and keep the rest of the staff together BUT in the FO that's unheard of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,??

gftChris

@miktoxic said:

i like the way some think or know it's a consensus thing, yet throw only one mug out there from the front office to speak of player acquisitions..........sashi.

if it's true that it is a consensus thing then i guess if one get's fired, they all get fired.

and berry was the guy for the colts since 2012? i can name only one good player they had drafted then AND since then.

thank god we got him!

Sashi gets to speak because he has final say. Gather the consensus from scouts & coaches, then make a decision. That's his job, so he does the speaking. Make sense?

In terms of who's involved in the discussions, start with Andrew Berry, who unlike you think was *not* involved in drafting. He was head of pro scouting. So there's that. And if you look at the players we've brought in from other teams, it doesn't look so bad (Collins, Taylor, Reynolds, Cooper, Davis etc).

Our director of college scouting is a guy called Bobby Vega. He's been in scouting, basically exclusively with the browns, for 10 seasons. Take that for what you will.

But equally importantly, you have the coaches. Everyone was raving about Hue Jackson being such a great football mind when he was hired a year ago, now he's taken over the 3-13 browns who were stripped bare of veteran talent and all of a sudden he's a know-nothing jackass? No, not buying it. If he's fired he walks in to another OC gig anywhere. Al Saunders, the WR coach, has been coaching in the league for 30+ years, he knows his stuff. Pep Hamilton has been coaching for 20 years, including OC, HC positions, and QB coaching. Kirby Wilson is the 'run game coordinator' or some shit. He, apparently, "has coached five running backs who rank in the top 25 for career rushing yards (Emmitt Smith #1, Curtis Martin #4, Edgerrin James #11, Adrian Peterson #17 and Thomas Jones #25)". So he knows talent.

The D side is less experienced, but the point remains - the 'football guys' in the front office are Hue Jackson and his senior coaches, Saunders, Hamilton, Horton. They, along with the scouts, make up the 'football brain trust' and Sashi is there to pull it all together. If you've got most of those guys agreed on a prospect, they're probably decent.

Mudfly

@gftchris said:

Gather the consensus from scouts & coaches, then make a decision. That's his job, so he does the speaking. Make sense?

Everyone was raving about Hue Jackson being such a great football mind when he was hired a year ago, now he's taken over the 3-13 browns who were stripped bare of veteran talent and all of a sudden he's a know-nothing jackass? No, not buying it. If he's fired he walks in to another OC gig anywhere.

To me, this consensus thing is another word for compromise.....and Shashi does more than the speaking....he is the bottom line....period

and "everyone" wasnt raving......just a bunch of people who instantly decided because he had one season as a HC he must be great....dude has barely even been an OC and never lasted more than one year in that role....

most of his career has been as a position coach, including at the Bengals.....where he was for 7 years...3 as WR's coach, 1 as ST asst, 1 as DB coach, 1 as RB coach....then, finally, OC.....

Such a brilliant offensive mind that they made him the ST asst and then DB coach....???

miktoxic

if sashi is the 'bottom line' and get's final say then the consensus argument goes right out the window doesn't it?

bottom line someone has to have the title of GM......not co-GM or assistant GM, but GfuckingM.

gftChris

@miktoxic said:

if sashi is the 'bottom line' and get's final say then the consensus argument goes right out the window doesn't it?

bottom line someone has to have the title of GM......not co-GM or assistant GM, but GfuckingM.

I'm not sure you really understand still.

flyingfooldoug

I understand that of our 4 man gm team, that they have a combined on field football experience of 0, zero, Nada, nil, nothing! Add a player to the mix.

Tour2ma

Thanks for the help, Chris...

@mudfly said:
To me, this consensus thing is another word for compromise.....and Shashi does more than the speaking....he is the bottom line....period

Sounds like something an autocratic businessman used to making decisions would say...

@miktoxic said:

if sashi is the 'bottom line' and get's final say then the consensus argument goes right out the window doesn't it?

bottom line someone has to have the title of GM......not co-GM or assistant GM, but GfuckingM.

If that's the way it works, yes, but there' nothing that says that is our way and plenty that says it is not.

For one thing, no one in our FO has the title, "GM". You can look for yourself...

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

What was Sashi praised for when Haslam (or the Haslams) selected him? Facilitation... bringing minds together... driving consensus building. That is his job #1.

Can minds meet in every instance? No. And when that happens his role is to recognize it and decide when it is time to close the book on the discussion, and move the FO onto the next decision. This is the nature of the vast majority of his decisions.

But remember the definition of consensus... it is a position, a decision, that all can accept. That all can at minimum "live with". All do not have to embrace it, love it to the same degree, but all must be at least "OK with it". It is not the same as "settling" or "compromising". And it is not good enough that all are merely "OK with it".

Will there ever come a time when Sashi weighs the pros and cons of deadlocked staff and makes a decision in the absence of a consensus? Yes... but only if one side's argument is far stronger than the others is AND if there is no consensus alternative available. This will be rare and it will not involve Sashi alone in a closet with a DVD of a player's game tape.

How do I "know" the above? Because I did this job for about seven years... and I was damn good at it... at least that was the consensus of my "stakeholders", my internal customers and even my peers.

One last point... but it's an important one. Folks here can't get their head around a non-football guy in Sashi's role. I will tell you that the biggest obstacle to his job, the biggest threat to our FO's decision process is if its Facilitator comes into the process with an opinion. A strong "football guy" couldn't do what Sashi is charged with doing.

I've been there, too. Keeping a constant check that as Facilitator you do not steer or otherwise inject yourself, your opinion, your bias into the decision significantly adds to what is already an taxing job... a mentally, and occasionally even physically, exhausting job.

Sorry, Gip... I ended up explaining it again anyway... albeit in a slightly different way... hopefully a better way.

Although I doubt there will be consensus on that point...

The Gipper

I fully understand that the Browns entire scouting staff has input into the decisions that are made. But it is still Sashi with the final decision.

If 9 out of 10 scouts say we need to take X player, I suspect Sashi says, yes, lets take X.

But if 4 say lets take Y, and 3 say lets take Z and 2 say lets take Q, and one says lets take # then Sashi will likely be the one to say that we are taking the guy he chooses....his final word. (after he runs it past the owner....at least for the first round picks)

gftChris

@the-gipper said:

I fully understand that the Browns entire scouting staff has input into the decisions that are made. But it is still Sashi with the final decision.

If 9 out of 10 scouts say we need to take X player, I suspect Sashi says, yes, lets take X.

But if 4 say lets take Y, and 3 say lets take Z and 2 say lets take Q, and one says lets take # then Sashi will likely be the one to say that we are taking the guy he chooses....his final word. (after he runs it past the owner....at least for the first round picks)

That's a stupid way of choosing things. For example you can probably remove the guys who only get 2 and 1 vote, and tell those three scouts to pick between the first two candidates. Maybe you've got 4 votes for Trubsiky, 3 for Watson, 2 for Falk and 1 for Mahones. Then you eliminate Falk and Mahones, and tell the scouts to pick between Trubisky and Watson. Maybe you then find it's 7-3 Trubisky.

On the other hand, you might find that of the Trubisky supporters, you have a couple that are like "Trubisky is great but Watson's really good too, can't go wrong either way" and others are like "Watson's the shit, Trubisky's just shit" and all ten scouts are happy that Watson is a top 20 QB but Trubisky splits opinions.

gftChris

The only problem can be what's known here as the 'pizza express issue'. Not sure if you guys have the same chain? I'm sure there's an equivalent. Basically you get a group of people going out to dinner and trying to decide where to go. People have their own ideas, but the vegetarian doesn't want to go the steak house, the other one doesn't do spicy food, there's always one who just doesn't like 'foreign food' so you end up at a standard chain pizza place, because everybody's *ok* with pizza.

wargograw

We don't eat pizza in America.