So....who gets cut??

[sisky fringo]

@bronx-cheer said:

I think the 19 above is a good start, but have a few comments.

Regarding Fraley, couldn't Steinbach and Hadnot be the backups at C while still being starting Gs? I know Steinbach is thought of as a backup at T, but am I right in thinking that he would be a backup C as well? If Mack starts day 1, then that would enable you to cut Fraley - Steinbach would be able to handle the mentoring thing as well assist in line calls. I can't imagine a new coach who is trying to turn over his roster keeping a backup o-lineman (and a tired old vet to boot) that can play only one position.

Also, if steptoe is cut, then who is the backup kick returner?

Steinbach needs a lot more "sand in his pants" to play center in the AFCN. Fraley, like Ali, seems to be of the Mangini mold as well and would be the ideal mentor to a new smart young center. when i predicted them to draft his future replacement it was to utilize and learn under Hank, not to squeeze him off the team. to release Hank for '09 would be a huge disservice to the rookie IMO. Hank has a few jedi NFL moves left in his vault, solid technique that has allowed him to fluorish against brutish yet less experienced tackles that were expected to maul him.

[sisky fringo]

mz. said:

Holy shit was this post stupid...

like you're anyone to judge. per the thanks your post got i guess no one agreed. when's the last time you added something insightful to the board? i'll take your bait, you've been wanting this for a while with your snyde little quips and "quintuple sighs". lmao. if i'm right on any of those you can line up and be the first to kiss my ass, through dental dam of course. can't have mr sensitive making contact with the "grocery-baggers" of the world. i hope you feel like somebody on here, mr. zilch, cuz irl you're probably just like your avatar. you can fill in the blanks.

and btw Shaun Rogers is actually pretty bright. why'd you single him out? hmmmm, i wonder.

[hoorta]

@sisky-fringo said:

you say tomato, i say tomatoe......

over/under 8 starts in '09?

Don't want to be uppity, but I've talked to KW, one on one, have you? I won't give you an over\under- The smart money will take the under. Our pal Rich4Eagle had him pinned as a one trick wonder with a an outside speed move, and nothing else. He may well be right.

[sisky fringo]

Masters said:

No disagreement from me.

nor me. i was one of his staunchest supporters years one and two. i love him as a person but don't know if he's vicious enough to play ROLB.

of course you pencil him in Masters. who else is there?

just a reminder.....we're brainstorming here guys.

@shepwrite said:

Lewis is in another contract year. I expect him to come in buff and hungry, looking to squeeze out one last deal. A lot of his fall off last year can be blamed on Fraley, who got bitched all year long. Mack and hopefully Tucker make this a power running team again.

The more I think about it, the more this situation is perfect for Quinn. He's going to have a nice set of receivers, a terrific line, and a hungry Jamal Lewis.

shep, i think Jamal Lewis has two more years left on his contract. He signed a 3 year deal and i believe this is year two of that. he wanted to finish his career in CLE and quit after the three, if he even gets to do that. and Jamal is always hungry for the record. that situation you describe would be conducive to any QB, not just Quinn.

@thaak said:

Other than the stupid guy, the only major cut I disagree with is Shaun Smith.

While I think the guy is an ass, and I don't really want him on our team, he's a serviceable NT. Who's going to back up Shaun Rogers if Shaun Smith is not on the team?

Andy

after reading your post i can't hurt it any more. but i will offer up Ahtyba Rubin as a possibility.

so far this is what we know about kok/man's core values: character and intelligence. what else do we know? i feel those are safe suggestions. i never claimed them as locks.

**edit** we posted simultaneously Hoorta, maybe this post will help you understand more where i'm coming from. i'd like to make it clear that i never said he was stupid, i listed those three as less intelligent. and whether or not it's the academics or the lack of production for the reason of his demise was what i meant by tomato/tomatoe. alex hall might have made my list of three too if he wasn't in year two, therefore i don't see him on the hot seat. and what conclusion could you really draw from a conversation that i couldn't draw from interviews, unless you quizzed him?

[ballpeen]

Good stuff guys......as someone said....we are brainstorming....or talking out loud. In discussions like this, nobody is right or wrong for the most part...just expressing opinions and sharing ideas and thoughts.

Someone mentioned kick returners.

I think that is going to be something Mangini will look to change a bit....get Cribbs out of returning all the kicks. My thinking is he will replace him from punt return duties.

The guys name escapes me right now, but one of those FA receivers we signed was a kick returner, and I think Francies returned kicks.

With many of the guys being mentioned, their future with this team is going to be pegged to how well they do on special teams. Those guys better play like wildmen under control if they want to make the team.

[sisky fringo]

Masters said:

Wimbley is not a safe bet for the axe at all.

it may not be a safe bet but it's fair enough.

They are not going to give the job to a rookie.

isn't that how Kam got the job to begin with? and by RAC no less. shows the potential they thought he has, for sure.

Plus the guy they drafted fits in in McGinests/Halls spot last season, not Wimbley's.

touche. a valid point.

Bell, he's a crap shoot if he stays or not. My guess, he stays because he plays ST.

Kaluka Maiava will blow him off the map. i think he's a goner. but honestly, i want anyone that can make it to stay.

Ballpeen i think it was patton who you were speaking of regarding the returner.

it's all about results with me. if you've never done anything as a Brown you'll get no love from me. if you have but have fallen off you usually get a lifetime pass. Kam's on the fence.

a genuine good luck to all.

[Aloysius]

Mangini said that Maiava's probably going to start out as a a nickel linebacker/special teams player, which means Leon's no longer needed.

But Kam Wimbley's a lock to stay. I don't see why Mangini would get rid of a solid character guy who's got three times as many sacks as Bryan Thomas had at this point of his career.

Some of our d-line scrubs are going to be fighting losing battles to keep their jobs, but I think Ahtyba Rubin sticks around. I know Flugs and other disagree, but I thought he played pretty well down the stretch. I charted the Buffalo game, and the defense actually gave up less YPC when he was in there. We got run on like crazy last year, but it mostly was due to inadequate DE/LB play, not our stud NT and his somewhat promising backup.

Louis Leonard's got the versatility that Mangini likes, but he's also a guy who plays too high and doesn't seem to be getting the most out of his ability. That could mean he gets the axe.

[hammertime]

Part of last season's fiasco was the inability for even our bench players to step it up. As a back-up in the NFL you should'nt be that far behind in talent or skill levels then the starters.

Move out the old and bring in the new. A guy who's hungry to start is what you want waiting in the wings, not a 3rd string qb hoping he won't get his jersey dirty.

[Tink]

When I step back and look at the big picture I am pleasantly surprised. This season everyone will compete and will need to work hard all season to keep position on lock.

When you know you have a young rookie or one of the new coaches hand picked studs chomping at the bit right behind you........ you are more likely to give it 100% every down!!!

I think this is E.M.s first great coaching move in Cleveland bar none!

[sisky fringo]

Aloysius said:

Kam Wimbley's a lock to stay. I don't see why Mangini would get rid of a solid character guy who's got three times as many sacks as Bryan Thomas had at this point of his career.

saying he's a lock is as much of a gamble as saying he's a safe bet for the axe. reality is he's keeping the position warm for the next guy based on what we've seen from him the past two years. while i agree he has high character and no risks for "off-field shenanigans" he hasn't emerged as a leader or ugraded beyond the same toolbox he arrived with. for all the flak Anderson gets regarding his progression since college there seems to be a lot more rope given to Wimbley.

right now i don't see the reason why clearly yet either, but once the season starts it might be another story. he's currently a measuring stick others are aiming for, and just because the staff feels they might be able to coach he and the others up, it still remains to be seen.

[sisky fringo]

@hammertime said:

Part of last season's fiasco was the inability for even our bench players to step it up. As a back-up in the NFL you should'nt be that far behind in talent or skill levels then the starters.

Move out the old and bring in the new. A guy who's hungry to start is what you want waiting in the wings, not a 3rd string qb hoping he won't get his jersey dirty.

Savage needed his additions to emerge but when they didn't it left him little to no wiggle room. we now have competition at basically every position. finally.

this is a whole new Browns team from where i'm standing.

[Aloysius]

Wimbley's also relatively cheap - he's only going to receive a $585k base salary this year. He'd only take up more cap space if we cut him.

And the guy we drafted, David Veikune, isn't slotted to replace him. It's not yet clear whether he'll play inside or outside, but Veikune's build and style of play projects more to the strongside; he actually played LE in college.

So I think Wimbley's safe.

[sisky fringo]

Aloysius said:

Wimbley's also relatively cheap - he's only going to receive a $585k base salary this year. He'd only take up more cap space if we cut him.

And the guy we drafted, David Veikune, isn't slotted to replace him. It's not yet clear whether he'll play inside or outside, but Veikune's build and style of play projects more to the strongside; he actually played LE in college.

So I think Wimbley's safe.

you make a good point about the $$, and this might be a contract year for him, right? i think he signed a 4 year deal initially. if so it's boom or bust.

why even cut a guy making base anyway, he's cheap enough you can afford to bench him if necessary. if that's all the facts you've talked me around, he may not start all year but logic says he wouldn't be cut.

how about Bowens? I think that's the real battle, with "Vuhkoonay" taking notes. Bowens will either push Kam to where he needs to be or push him to the left side. Kam has played some downs over there for the Browns, maybe that's what the staff is thinking as an option while grooming Veikune for the ROLB. options of rotating the four of them (incl. Hall) is something we never could have even imagined last year.

@ JADBF: film. he said coming into last season he and the coaches were adding a couple more moves to his game, they just didn't translate--tools do no good if you don't use them. we can't blame everything on the coaching. Peek's health didn't help matters but Kam was 1 on 1 nearly all last year. no excuses anymore, Mangini brings accountability.

**edit** the opponents had film on him after his rookie year. if we don't edit to add a word or two at times these threads will be 100 pages.

[Aloysius]

Not sure why we'd move Wimbley to LOLB. I don't think he's strong enough to hold up against when when facing a RT or a RT/TE double. If he's going to have success anywhere, it would be on the weakside.

I'm not sure what the plan is with Bowens. He played ILB last year, and I'm not convinced he's got enough explosion left to be an effective rusher off the edge. Maybe he can play run downs & have Veikune/Hall sub in for him on passing downs, as Shep suggested in another thread.

Worst case scenario for Wimbley, I think, is that he faces competition from Hall at ROLB. But I could be wrong.

[sisky fringo]

@jadbf said:

do you really mean to tell me you didn't watch every Browns game and were not easily able to predict where our "pass rush" was supposed to be coming from?

i was. it made me laugh. this team has been making me laugh for awhile. i feel like i can say that now. i'm 98% numb from it.

that LB coach last year, Mr. Whateverhisnamewas, was supposed to be pretty good i thought. i got my hopes way up again and fell even harder. that's probably where all this is coming from.

[ballpeen]

I am not a big Wimp fan, but I don't think it is a lock he is gone. Far from that.

On the other hand, history shows that new coaches do make changes, so while I wouldn't bet the ranch that Wimbly leaves, I wouldn't call the odds remote either.

[Bronx Cheer]

Our D "scheme" was a joke, no doubt. But I cannot help but notice how easily Kam was blocked. He showed no rush moves beyond the shoulder dip. Hell, everyone knows other rush LBers are coming 85% of the time, but they are able to win the battle, even against a RB chip or TE help, from time to time. Kam never seems to make a play despite the predictability.

RAC didn't help Kam, but I would think if he was half as talented as we'd hoped he would have had more than the near zero impact he had on the passing game. No? Hall had as much impact on games in his limited time, and he was a clueless rook from DIV 1AA.

That said, I doubt Kam gets cut given the lack of alternatives on the roster and his contract/cap status. He is cheap, a former #1, and enough of a specimen to get one more chance under the new coach.

[sisky fringo]

how the heck did i double post that?!? **fixed

@bronx-cheer said:

I doubt Kam gets cut given the lack of alternatives on the roster and his contract/cap status. He is cheap, a former #1, and enough of a specimen to get one more chance under the new coach.

that's a pretty good synopsis, Bronx, and one i'd agree with. his current status as an OLB for the Browns is definitely benefiting from his situation right now. i also think we'd all agree his status as a starting OLB is in serious jeopardy. i remember going back and forth with repairman about it in December, isolating on him i really saw it. no spin moves, getting worked over by LTs badly, it was like watching Rogers maul Steinbach in camp last summer.....he couldn't get anything done. while he looked to be a physical specimen he seemed to lack the rabid dog ferocity and relentlessness of guys like Harrison, Suggs, Scott, and now Woodley. while scheme helps he needs to shed the Tackle more. he just never did in time, while i'll admit at times he was only a split second late.

that's why i was hoping they'd try Rogers at RDE. after Wimbley's dip move he and the Tackle were so far out on an island there was a gap there impossible to ignore. if he couldn't reach the passer at least he could remove the QB's left side protection from the play. although Shaun Smith hustled he lacked the penetration to exploit it. the window was only open for a moment for the right player and S. Smith wasn't it. Robaire may have done more with it but that's just me speculating.

on the plus side he does have incredible heart though. i remember one play, i think it was against Marshawn Lynch, where he made a play from on the ground with only his forearm, drove it up into the RB's belly and folded him, stopping him on a clutch 3rd down--i was blown away, thought it might have ripped his shoulder out of place. it was a play only a bionic man could have made. it was on the left side of the line too. truly amazing.

even if he can't succeed at OLB, maybe this new crew can find a way to utilize what he can do well. look at me, totally talking myself back into being a Kamerian Wimbley fan again. gosh he's hard not to like.

he'll be a good story to watch this year. again.

[sisky fringo]

@jadbf said:

How many years in the NFL did it take Harrison to be come the force he is now?

THAT's one example of what I think it's a bit early to give up on Wimbley.

off the top of my head i think 5 or 6, he's not that young. takes a while to see it all, that's for certain. i'm asking for it again but Harrison's a brighter guy than i gave him credit for a few years ago. he really surprised me in some of the interviews i've heard over the years. maybe Kam just needs a bit more press to delve deeper into his knowledge bag to convince me otherwise there too.

**i edited on you again btw.