Possible Next Browns QB
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I've noted that I would be fine with using the Titans 2nd round pick and a future 3rd to get Jimmy G. if the Pats would take it. These reports of a 1st and a 4th are nonsense because no one is going to pay that.
I get what you're saying, but Tom Brady is a fucking enigma of a situation for the Patriots. The guy seemingly could play at an elite level for even 3-4 more years let's say. Jimmy G. has another year on his contract and he'll become a UFA after that. Say they feel Tom Brady today has the giddyup for three more seasons-do you pay Jimmy what it would take and have a high priced back-up for two seasons on the bench? If you look at it that way, I don't think it's absurd to think they know they are losing a good prospect but would still trade him away.
The reason I'm interested at all is because Jimmy is certainly the most interesting back-up in the Patriots chain since Matt Cassell.
Yea, Matt Cassell. Would you be willing to trade a first round pick for a Matt Cassell...or a Brian Hoyer, or a Ryan Mallet.
Fuck that.
NE wants a 1 and a 4. I would give them just the 4 for this guy. Seriously.
Yea, Matt Cassell. Would you be willing to trade a first round pick for a Matt Cassell...or a Brian Hoyer, or a Ryan Mallet.
Fuck that.
NE wants a 1 and a 4. I would give them just the 4 for this guy. Seriously.
Eh, hindsight is 20/20 on Cassell. The guy looked pretty damn good there before going to KC and even there had a few good seasons. The other dudes were released and traded for a 6th round pick, in that order.
Gotta agree with Z that Jimmy is the best prospect of all four of those guys as well. Let me repeat though that the Patriots in no way shape or form will get a 1st and 4th for Jimmy, so there's no selling the farm. It's just not going to happen. Also, let's say the Browns give up a 2nd to get him and he blows. He's got another year on his contract, so we cut him and basically "waste" a 2nd rounder. Is that really any worse than the QB experiments we've tried in the past?
There's examples of traded or moved QBs doing well for other teams (Brees, Schaub, Alex Smith, etc). I'm more and more of the opinion that the gods above have cursed the browns ability to draft a QB, so let's give this route a shot. It literally can't go any worse.
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Don't touch Jimmy G, a second rounder who won a couple games on a good team, but slobber all over A.J., a 5th rounder that won a couple games for a good team.
What am I missing here?
Grop is the sharper QB with the higher ceiling.
McCarron and Tyrod Taylor are the consolation prizes of vet QBs that will end up on bad teams (Romo is going to a good one).
Don't dare trade with Bill ... Go for whatever Mike Brown is selling ... Gotcha.
Zombo
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Zombo, if you're missing anything it may be an understanding about why McCarron was a 5th rounder. In his final season at Alabama he had suffered a serious shoulder injury that required surgery. As a result any team that drafted him had to be willing to select a player who would be incapable of playing for the first 10-12 games of his rookie season. Furthermore, unless that team was willing to put McCarron on IR it would also need to carry an injured 3rd QB on it's 53 man roster. Knowing all of this it's small wonder McCarron slipped in the draft.
Yet despite all of the above McCarron was still ranked immediately behind Garrapalo as the next best QB prospect. For example, prior to the 2014 draft Dane Brugler of Draftscout had ranked the QB prospects in the following order. Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as 1st rounders. Carr and Garrapalo as 2nd rounders. Next up, McCarron was ranked 6th and given a 3rd round grade.
Granted, you can keep repeating how McCarron slipped to the 5th round, but three years later....why should it matter? The shoulder injury that caused him to slip hasn't been a concern since 2015.
Last, I've read your rant about Garrapalo and you may be surprised to hear that I agree with you. I liked Garrapalo better than McCarron when both players were drafted and I still like him better now. So yeah, if all things were equal I'd trade for Garrapalo before I'd trade for McCarron. But there's the rub because I do think things are more equal than you imply. Hue Jackson knows better than anyone what caused McCarron to slip to the 5th round and I doubt where the two players were drafted three years ago will carry much weight in any debate.
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On NFL Insiders yesterday A.J. being traded was discussed.
In his assessment of how interested teams should be in A.J., Bill Polian, the guy many her lust after to be our "football guy", said:
"Very. If you are a team in need of a starter, and several teams are, A.J. should be #1 on your list and that includes the current crop of QBs in the draft."
So there's that...
Polian knows his shit. More than any of us around here so if he thinks he's worth going after, then I'm all in.
Polian knows his shit. More than any of us around here so if he thinks he's worth going after, then I'm all in.
He's one of the ones I listen to on the show.
Another, Louis Riddick, our former DB, is up for the SF GM job...
Mitch2Pryor said:
Not a bad idea but I don't think Cincy would trade a QB within the division.
And that is Polian's take as well... which lead him back to Garopollo.
Host asked Bill what the negotiation for Jimmy G. would be like. Bottom line was he thought a 2017 1st and a 2018 3rd would definitely do it (essentially what the Pats are "asking"), but a high 2017 2nd and 2018 3rd might get it done.
Yeah, the blue light special e-mail. Cracked me up. Made me wonder how lonely you guys must be to invite old trolls back.
Then I read how you invited Ghoulie back for the umpteenth time and I realized I wasn't so special after all.
I like this guy already...
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Zombo, if you're missing anything it may be an understanding about why McCarron was a 5th rounder. In his final season at Alabama he had suffered a serious shoulder injury that required surgery. As a result any team that drafted him had to be willing to select a player who would be incapable of playing for the first 10-12 games of his rookie season. Furthermore, unless that team was willing to put McCarron on IR it would also need to carry an injured 3rd QB on it's 53 man roster. Knowing all of this it's small wonder McCarron slipped in the draft.
Yet despite all of the above McCarron was still ranked immediately behind Garrapalo as the next best QB prospect. For example, prior to the 2014 draft Dane Brugler of Draftscout had ranked the QB prospects in the following order. Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as 1st rounders. Carr and Garrapalo as 2nd rounders. Next up, McCarron was ranked 6th and given a 3rd round grade.
Granted, you can keep repeating how McCarron slipped to the 5th round, but three years later....why should it matter? The shoulder injury that caused him to slip hasn't been a concern since 2015.
Last, I've read your rant about Garrapalo and you may be surprised to hear that I agree with you. I liked Garrapalo better than McCarron when both players were drafted and I still like him better now. So yeah, if all things were equal I'd trade for Garrapalo before I'd trade for McCarron. But there's the rub because I do think things are more equal than you imply. Hue Jackson knows better than anyone what caused McCarron to slip to the 5th round and I doubt where the two players were drafted three years ago will carry much weight in any debate.
I liked Garrapalo better than McCarron when both players were drafted and I still like him better now.
Opposite here based primarily on competition level and a view of AJ being a tested game manager. At the time I was working under the delusion that we were on the verge of constructing a dominant Defense. AJ was my 2014 Darkhorse QB.
Now I see a tested, pro QB that played in meaningful games down the stretch for a playoff team... who had a pretty dominant Defense.
But as you say, no one is in a better position to know AJ's worth than Hue... so I'll defer to him.
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Yea, Matt Cassell. Would you be willing to trade a first round pick for a Matt Cassell...or a Brian Hoyer, or a Ryan Mallet.
Fuck that.
NE wants a 1 and a 4. I would give them just the 4 for this guy. Seriously.
He is not those guys.
Mallet was shit. Hoyer was a nobody, who proved himself OK.
Cassell is a Scott Mitchell ... turned a one year fill-in on a good team into a big contract.
Grop is a guy that was a better prospect than all of those guys, and if you liked him before the draft, there is no reason not to like him now.
He'll be starting for somebody next year. A team with balls, and not a defeatist attitude. A team not afraid to trade with the Big Bad Belichick.
I think that could be Sashi and Hue.
Zombo
Zombo said:
He is not those guys.
I am not convince dthat he isn't.
Mallet was shit. Hoyer was a nobody, who proved himself OK.
Cassell is a Scott Mitchell ... turned a one year fill-in on a good team into a big contract.
Yes....Mitchell and Garropolo sitting in a tree, etc.
Grop is a guy that was a better prospect than all of those guys, and if you liked him before the draft, there is no reason not to like him now.
He'll be starting for somebody next year. A team with balls, and not a defeatist attitude. A team not afraid to trade with the Big Bad Belichick.
I think that could be Sashi and Hue.
Zombo
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Tour, I'm not going to quibble over which player is considered slightly better. My point was it's probably a closer evaluation than some think...and I strongly doubt where each player was drafted three years ago will carry much weight. In fact, if I was in the mood I think I could craft a pretty strong argument in favor of McCarron based upon his experience running Hue's scheme.
For starters, McCarron already knows the plays, understands the terminology, and has worked with Hue long enough to understand his tendencies and desires. He could show up tomorrow bringing more experience in your teams offensive scheme than all three QBs on your current roster, including the starter. So if your HC wanted to jump start your latest rebuilding project I'd be hard pressed to find a more attractive option, especially if your front office was reluctant to throw millions of dollars at an unproven QB. To kick the tires on McCarron would cost you one premium draft pick...a mid round sweetener...and less than a million bucks. Garrapalo will cost slightly more, and has no experience working in Hue's scheme.
Last, I didn't hear Polians remarks but I have to wonder if the real roadblock to a trade for McCarron isn't a reluctance on the Bengals part to trade McCarron to a division rival, but rather...the reluctance of the Browns franchise to send a high draft pick to Cincy.
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Zombo said:
He is not those guys.
I am not convince dthat he isn't.
Mallet was shit. Hoyer was a nobody, who proved himself OK.
Cassell is a Scott Mitchell ... turned a one year fill-in on a good team into a big contract.
Yes....Mitchell and Garropolo sitting in a tree, etc.
Grop is a guy that was a better prospect than all of those guys, and if you liked him before the draft, there is no reason not to like him now.
He'll be starting for somebody next year. A team with balls, and not a defeatist attitude. A team not afraid to trade with the Big Bad Belichick.
I think that could be Sashi and Hue.
Zombo
Zombo said:
He is not those guys.
I am not convince dthat he isn't.
Mallet was shit. Hoyer was a nobody, who proved himself OK.
Cassell is a Scott Mitchell ... turned a one year fill-in on a good team into a big contract.
Yes....Mitchell and Garropolo sitting in a tree, etc.
Grop is a guy that was a better prospect than all of those guys, and if you liked him before the draft, there is no reason not to like him now.
He'll be starting for somebody next year. A team with balls, and not a defeatist attitude. A team not afraid to trade with the Big Bad Belichick.
I think that could be Sashi and Hue.
Zombo
I don't see what Garoppolo and Cassell have in common other than they played for the same team.
Matt Flynn is not Matt Hasslebeck.
If you're going to dismiss guys simply because of the team, the system or the coach ... then you're scouting with your eyes closed.
Zombo
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Zombo, if you're missing anything it may be an understanding about why McCarron was a 5th rounder. In his final season at Alabama he had suffered a serious shoulder injury that required surgery. As a result any team that drafted him had to be willing to select a player who would be incapable of playing for the first 10-12 games of his rookie season. Furthermore, unless that team was willing to put McCarron on IR it would also need to carry an injured 3rd QB on it's 53 man roster. Knowing all of this it's small wonder McCarron slipped in the draft.
Yet despite all of the above McCarron was still ranked immediately behind Garrapalo as the next best QB prospect. For example, prior to the 2014 draft Dane Brugler of Draftscout had ranked the QB prospects in the following order. Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as 1st rounders. Carr and Garrapalo as 2nd rounders. Next up, McCarron was ranked 6th and given a 3rd round grade.
Granted, you can keep repeating how McCarron slipped to the 5th round, but three years later....why should it matter? The shoulder injury that caused him to slip hasn't been a concern since 2015.
Last, I've read your rant about Garrapalo and you may be surprised to hear that I agree with you. I liked Garrapalo better than McCarron when both players were drafted and I still like him better now. So yeah, if all things were equal I'd trade for Garrapalo before I'd trade for McCarron. But there's the rub because I do think things are more equal than you imply. Hue Jackson knows better than anyone what caused McCarron to slip to the 5th round and I doubt where the two players were drafted three years ago will carry much weight in any debate.
Zombo, if you're missing anything it may be an understanding about why McCarron was a 5th rounder. In his final season at Alabama he had suffered a serious shoulder injury that required surgery. As a result any team that drafted him had to be willing to select a player who would be incapable of playing for the first 10-12 games of his rookie season. Furthermore, unless that team was willing to put McCarron on IR it would also need to carry an injured 3rd QB on it's 53 man roster. Knowing all of this it's small wonder McCarron slipped in the draft.
Yet despite all of the above McCarron was still ranked immediately behind Garrapalo as the next best QB prospect. For example, prior to the 2014 draft Dane Brugler of Draftscout had ranked the QB prospects in the following order. Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as 1st rounders. Carr and Garrapalo as 2nd rounders. Next up, McCarron was ranked 6th and given a 3rd round grade.
Granted, you can keep repeating how McCarron slipped to the 5th round, but three years later....why should it matter? The shoulder injury that caused him to slip hasn't been a concern since 2015.
Last, I've read your rant about Garrapalo and you may be surprised to hear that I agree with you. I liked Garrapalo better than McCarron when both players were drafted and I still like him better now. So yeah, if all things were equal I'd trade for Garrapalo before I'd trade for McCarron. But there's the rub because I do think things are more equal than you imply. Hue Jackson knows better than anyone what caused McCarron to slip to the 5th round and I doubt where the two players were drafted three years ago will carry much weight in any debate.
You seem hung up on this "5th round" thing.
I was just noticing that some of the people that were all over this apple hated the idea of purchasing the other apple that was deemed a little shinier last time they were both on the market. Just wondering what I missed in that regard.
As for my own personal opinion, when I look at ceilings I see Grop as more of a gunglsinger (Brees) and McCarron more of manager (Smith). I think A.J. is in the same mold as Kessler, so I think we can work with him some more before trading a first for McCarron. Grop I see as different species, I think he could be something really special.
I don't back prospective QBs too much ... but when I like one, I like one ... until I'm proven otherwise. Nothing I've seen yet has turned me off Grop.
Zombo
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Zombo said:
He is not those guys.
I am not convince dthat he isn't.
Mallet was shit. Hoyer was a nobody, who proved himself OK.
Cassell is a Scott Mitchell ... turned a one year fill-in on a good team into a big contract.
Yes....Mitchell and Garropolo sitting in a tree, etc.
Grop is a guy that was a better prospect than all of those guys, and if you liked him before the draft, there is no reason not to like him now.
He'll be starting for somebody next year. A team with balls, and not a defeatist attitude. A team not afraid to trade with the Big Bad Belichick.
I think that could be Sashi and Hue.
Zombo
I don't see what Garoppolo and Cassell have in common other than they played for the same team.
Matt Flynn is not Matt Hasslebeck.
If you're going to dismiss guys simply because of the team, the system or the coach ... then you're scouting with your eyes closed.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I don't see what Garoppolo and Cassell have in common other than they played for the same team.
Matt Flynn is not Matt Hasslebeck.
If you're going to dismiss guys simply because of the team, the system or the coach ... then you're scouting with your eyes closed.
Zombo
I guess its just like guys saying that it is the Browns that killed QBs.....I don't believe that. I also don't believe a QB is good just because he backed up Tom Brady. These guys are not Tom Brady lite.
I will be on board with this guy if and when he becomes a member of the Cleveland Browns. Until then, I will retain my right to remain skeptical.
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I'm not hung up on the 5th round thing nearly as much as you seem to be. After all, it was part of your rant and you did ask what you might be missing. So I thought you might appreciate a little background information that went deeper than the shiny apple comparison.
But looking at the bigger picture I actually agree with your eloquent and brutally simple rant about Garrapalo. If you liked him better before you still like him better now. To say more spoils the beauty of the thing.
Oh, and here's the latest scuttled butt about McCarron being traded. When asked today about the rumors of a trade Marvin answered by saying...."Well, ante up."
FWIW that's a big change from the last time Marvin answered the question in March when he flatly told Mike Florio McCarron wouldn't be traded this offseason.
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Tour, I'm not going to quibble over which player is considered slightly better. My point was it's probably a closer evaluation than some think...and I strongly doubt where each player was drafted three years ago will carry much weight. In fact, if I was in the mood I think I could craft a pretty strong argument in favor of McCarron based upon his experience running Hue's scheme.
For starters, McCarron already knows the plays, understands the terminology, and has worked with Hue long enough to understand his tendencies and desires. He could show up tomorrow bringing more experience in your teams offensive scheme than all three QBs on your current roster, including the starter. So if your HC wanted to jump start your latest rebuilding project I'd be hard pressed to find a more attractive option, especially if your front office was reluctant to throw millions of dollars at an unproven QB. To kick the tires on McCarron would cost you one premium draft pick...a mid round sweetener...and less than a million bucks. Garrapalo will cost slightly more, and has no experience working in Hue's scheme.
Last, I didn't hear Polians remarks but I have to wonder if the real roadblock to a trade for McCarron isn't a reluctance on the Bengals part to trade McCarron to a division rival, but rather...the reluctance of the Browns franchise to send a high draft pick to Cincy.
Tour, I'm not going to quibble over which player is considered slightly better.
Last, I didn't hear Polians remarks but I have to wonder if the real roadblock to a trade for McCarron isn't a reluctance on the Bengals part to trade McCarron to a division rival, but rather...the reluctance of the Browns franchise to send a high draft pick to Cincy.
That's OK... I wasn't looking for an argument, even an argument-lite, just laying out an alternative take.
Giving a division rival ammo is always a consideration no matter the form it takes. Not nearly on the same scale, but it shocked me a couple years ago when Cinci let Hawkins come to us in FA for not much more money. But deals happen as we saw when the Steelers ponied up for Gilbert.
At the risk of stating the obvious... each just has to be secure in the knowledge that they got the better of the deal... or they'll be a special level of hell to pay if the fan base sees they did not.
Zombo said:
As for my own personal opinion, when I look at ceilings I see Grop as more of a gunglsinger (Brees) and McCarron more of manager (Smith).
Explains why I don't like Jimmy G all that much... my gunslinger aversion genome.
Although I do like Brees... guess he's not one in my book.
Oh, and here's the latest scuttled butt about McCarron being traded. When asked today about the rumors of a trade Marvin answered by saying...."Well, ante up."FWIW that's a big change from the last time Marvin answered the question in March when he flatly told Mike Florio McCarron wouldn't be traded this offseason.
So is Marvin's job safe?
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Tour, yeah, I think Marvin is safe. I once felt Vance Joseph was going to be his successor, and it could still happen if Joseph doesn't get a team of his own this year. But for the most part the Bengals pipeline of fresh NFL head coaches has run dry.
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Given a choice ....who starts in 2017
Jimmy Garappolo for Pick 12
Tyrod Taylor in FA
AJ McCarron for a 3rd rounder
Mitch Trubisky
Deshaun Watson
Deshone Kizer
RG3
Josh McCown
CodyKessler
Other
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AJ McCarron for a 3rd round pick?
You guys might as well get used to the idea of RGIII starting again...because the Bengals turned down a 2nd and a 4th for McCarron last year.
How about this for a hypothetical trade. Send pick #33 and a 6th rounder to the Patriots for their 1st rounder. Doesn't matter how low it is because IMO the thing the Bengals want most is a pick that comes with a 5-year contract. Then send the Patriots 1st rounder and one of your own mid round picks to the Bengals.
Too much?
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I would be happy with either Garoppolo or McCarron. Either one is an instant upgraded starter & allows us to go after defensive play makers. As far as price? Time will tell, but I do NOT want to spend either of my 1st round picks this year on them.
Mike
IN DORSEY I TRUST -
Given a choice ....who starts in 2017
Jimmy Garappolo for Pick 12
Tyrod Taylor in FA
AJ McCarron for a 3rd rounder
Mitch Trubisky
Deshaun Watson
Deshone Kizer
RG3
Josh McCown
CodyKessler
Other
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I would be happy with either Garoppolo or McCarron. Either one is an instant upgraded starter & allows us to go after defensive play makers. As far as price? Time will tell, but I do NOT want to spend either of my 1st round picks this year on them.
Mike
i'm not convinced either of them are in improvement over Kessler behind an improved line.I would be happy with either Garoppolo or McCarron. Either one is an instant upgraded starter & allows us to go after defensive play makers. As far as price? Time will tell, but I do NOT want to spend either of my 1st round picks this year on them.
Mike
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AJ McCarron for a 3rd round pick?
You guys might as well get used to the idea of RGIII starting again...because the Bengals turned down a 2nd and a 4th for McCarron last year.
How about this for a hypothetical trade. Send pick #33 and a 6th rounder to the Patriots for their 1st rounder. Doesn't matter how low it is because IMO the thing the Bengals want most is a pick that comes with a 5-year contract. Then send the Patriots 1st rounder and one of your own mid round picks to the Bengals.
Too much?
I think both have stronger arms... but we've been down the stronger arm path before.
One more thing on Jimmy G... if he was a gunslinger in college, isn't it likely that has been trained out of him in NE? His 4 TD 0 INT showing in 2016 would seem to suggest that.
You guys might as well get used to the idea of RGIII starting again...because the Bengals turned down a 2nd and a 4th for McCarron last year.
Actually RG3 starting in 2017 is pretty much where I am already... not thrilled by the idea, but it feels like the reality.
As for McCarron's value... not sure it holds with only one more year to go until he hits FA. Certainly the number of suitors will ultimately determine his price and CIN could play the Philly game and hold a good option for teams that lose starters to injury next preseason.
Same for Jimmy G... I mean, if NE let Collins go in his contract year for essentially a high 4th... Granted some issues with Collins did leak in response to Pat fan outcry, but the final contract year factor set the price as low as it ended up being.
trade the pick out to next year to draft in a much deeper QB draft 
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