Ray Horton out
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wow. I mean im not devestated but fuck....i didn't think they'd do another 1 and done with him.
wow. I mean im not devestated but fuck....i didn't think they'd do another 1 and done with him.
Why not? Went to the stats. 31st in point allowed, 31st in yards allowed, T 30th in rush defense, and dead last in sacks. Makes me think they just might possible go defense with the first two picks.
Williams is a 4-3 guy.
Hooray!!!!
Mostly to reply to Tour, Williams is a lot younger than Wade, but then Lebeau coached until he was 80.
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Well anyone who takes the position had better get a guarantee that the top 3 in the draft for the Browns will be defensive players.
good luck with that!
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We had some close games in the beginning of the season where we could have won a few if it weren't for the defense, so I understand if someone had to go it was Horton...the offense, at least in the beginning, wasn't that bad. Especially the running game. So im not a big fan of Horton, but i just can't help but feel this isn't good. The new guy is gonna come in here and do what that defense? It's very young and needs a few years. And now we're throwing a likely scheme change at them as well. If we do go to a 4-3 it won't really affect the D line much, if anything it'll be good for Nassib and Ogbah. But LB'ers might be a problem especially if williams comes in. The williams defense is apparently pretty complex for the LB'ers and secondary....so if they're out of sync don't expect much from the DL if QB's only need 1s to get rid of the ball.
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@ghoolie said:
Horton is not the problem. It isn't Horton's fault that the Browns don't score, that they drop passes, fumble Pick-6 TDs, commit penalties, miss tackles, kicks and blocks. It isn't Horton's fault Hue went a whole year and none of that shit improved. Sorry shit pimples, Hue is not going to magically change that around.
Okay Beaver Breath. Exhale and read. TN went from earning the right to draft 1st overall in 2016, which they traded back in order to draft one of those dime a dozen Offensive Linemen by the name of Jack Conklin. Conklin made 1st Team All Pro as TN improved to 9 wins behind a strong running game and much improved passing game. Not to get lost in all of that was the change from Ray Horton to Dick LeBeau at DC to make better rested legs on defense far more productive.
I suppose we can keep pretending Ray Horton and Jimmy O'Neil are just terrific DCs that only seem to interest teams like TN, SF or Cleveland (destined to compete for the right to draft first overall). Like Horton, O'Neil's next gig would only be 1 year. Sure both guys could have used more talent; but they could have also used more sound schemes to put more guys in better position to make tackles.
Where you have a point is Hue could have made a better attempt to understand recent history here and avoid hiring Horton back here altogether. I didn't see the zone blitz scheme pressuring opponents passers until week 15 vrs SD and the final week vrs Pitt's backup QB (with only a couple starts to his name). Way too little way too late. Until then, his zone coverage transitions left a lot of ghost towns for opponent's to bullseye in their game plans week after week.
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I said for weeks and weeks that while defensive talent was minimal, the schemes Horton ran and has run in his career are just bad and don't work. I'm not mad at this move in the slightest.
And Ghoolie goes brain dead...
The stupid motherfucker doesn't even see a DC upgrade as a positive when it's in his face.
Doesn't know the say an HC has in his staff.
See ya in a couple months... if you're still here... until then Imma firing up the ignore machine exclusively for you... again.
I said for weeks and weeks that while defensive talent was minimal, the schemes Horton ran and has run in his career are just bad and don't work. I'm not mad at this move in the slightest.
I actually liked the job Ray did this go'round better... At least he went with more 4-man fronts this time and seemed to try to adjust to "the talent" he had to work with...
But, yes, he just isn't good enough.
#Hoping4Bum'sSon
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I think the firing of Ray Horton has signaled that Hue now has less input with the team to be honest. RG3 and Ray Horton are arguably his biggest blunders this season and just a few weeks ago he said he would not release any member of his staff. RG3 at least can be explained away as a longshot. but too over commit to him so early and with so much time better spent on training our young players is incompetence. I hope this has humbled Jackson and will recommit him to the team rather than to some sort of odd "QB Whisperer" "Offensive Genius". Horton was hired because of his skin color combined. Jackson is on record saying that he personally would like to give minority coaches more chances and first crack at posistions on his coaching staff.... That being said NONE of the coaches suggested for the browns DC posistion are minorities. Implying that Jackson had little to no input in this coaching change. Further the coaches linked all have previous HC experience. Meaning the Front Office is setting it up so that if we perform poorly in the beginning of next season a replacement HC is in order.
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Don't entirely disagree, but did not want to waste the opportunity to cuss out Ghoolie before I exiled him...
I don't agree on the race thing. While it seems natural for a Black HC who has worked long and hard for his opportunities to want to extend a hand to others in his situation, no HC takes on a substandard coordinator just "because"... there's simply too much at stake.
I'm hard pressed to remember the other DC's not named O'Neil that were floating around at the time Hue assembled his staff, but I know our two(?) rumored candidates weren't among them. Even had our D played better than it did (although beyond better blitz schemes, I do not know how it would have) the two names being floated would be clear upgrades.
Plus while we're recalling reports... wasn't it just a couple weeks ago that a shouting match between Hue and Ray was being reported?
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Don't entirely disagree, but did not want to waste the opportunity to cuss out Ghoolie before I exiled him...
I don't agree on the race thing. While it seems natural for a Black HC who has worked long and hard for his opportunities to want to extend a hand to others in his situation, no HC takes on a substandard coordinator just "because"... there's simply too much at stake.
I'm hard pressed to remember the other DC's not named O'Neil that were floating around at the time Hue assembled his staff, but I know our two(?) rumored candidates weren't among them. Even had our D played better than it did (although beyond better blitz schemes, I do not know how it would have) the two names being floated would be clear upgrades.
Plus while we're recalling reports... wasn't it just a couple weeks ago that a shouting match between Hue and Ray was being reported?
Plus while we're recalling reports... wasn't it just a couple weeks ago that a shouting match between Hue and Ray was being reported?
oh no shit? is this verified?
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Horton is not fired...Yet. Greg Williams has till Monday to decide on the offer but Horty is still here. Awkward.
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Why pref for Wade?
Some is just bloodlines, but mostly track record. Hasn't gone anywhere that he hasn't resurrected the D. Sustain? Somewhat different matter, but most of his moving on has been when HCs are let go above him.
I also think his HC experience would be an asset to Hue.
Some is just bloodlines, but mostly track record. Hasn't gone anywhere that he hasn't resurrected the D. Sustain? Somewhat different matter, but most of his moving on has been when HCs are let go above him.
I also think his HC experience would be an asset to Hue.
I like Wade best too. That said, Greg Williams also has HC experience in Buffalo even if it's one he'd like to forget. With both buys, they're best wired to be DCs. I think Williams has SB experience as a DC in TN. I can't remember if he was also the DC of New Orleans when they won the SB; but there's a pretty resume for him on that side of the ball.
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Gregg Williams won't be much of an upgrade, if any, at points or yards given up. He had arguably the top DL in all of football this past season.. and just like in 2014, he was the #1 blitzer in all of football this past year as well. That's not "aggressive" -- that just gets you beat via draws and screens. We don't have the DB personnel that Arizona does to be top10 in points given up with their number of blitzes in 2016. Rams this past year blitzed 44% of the time with only 17 sacks.. not enough sacks, not enough INT..
My vote would go to Wade, but apparently the offer's already out to Gregg.
This will make Collins even better [he's ILB, not OLB] when he blitzes. Not a single sack in Collins’ career has come from anywhere besides up the middle.. so 4-3 will be better for him.
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I thoughtbthe rams lost most of that DL talent? Anyway, few years ago when they lostbtheir best pass rusher for half the season (long) they were still one if the best front 7's in football. Thats what i liked about that rams d, they had injuries throughout the defensive front and production didnt dip.
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oh no shit? is this verified?
.
I'm trying to... google coming up empty, but I know I read an account somewhere. I think it was in the Browns' reddit sub. Still looking, but it's harder to dredge up "threads" over there.
Horton is not fired...Yet. Greg Williams has till Monday to decide on the offer but Horty is still here. Awkward.
Awkward plus...
I like Wade best too. That said, Greg Williams also has HC experience in Buffalo even if it's one he'd like to forget. With both buys, they're best wired to be DCs. I think Williams has SB experience as a DC in TN. I can't remember if he was also the DC of New Orleans when they won the SB; but there's a pretty resume for him on that side of the ball.
That was Gregg as DC in NOLA's SB year. His D was 20th in points allowed and 25th in yards. But NO was geared to outscore opponents and #1 in both categories on Offense, so there was a lot of prevent D late in games.
Gregg's BUF HC gig was forgettable... as in I did not* remember him in that role for 3 years, but he did improve them from year one to year two (8-8) and his D was 15th in yards allowed. Career path shows a pretty meteoric rise with only 4 years at the DC level, all under Fisher in TN... in fact his whole NFL career prior to BUF was under Fisher.
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*Edited in an important excluded word...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I thoughtbthe rams lost most of that DL talent? Anyway, few years ago when they lostbtheir best pass rusher for half the season (long) they were still one if the best front 7's in football. Thats what i liked about that rams d, they had injuries throughout the defensive front and production didnt dip.
I thoughtbthe rams lost most of that DL talent?
You haven't heard of Aaron Donald? And Michael Brockers is good in his own right as the other DT. Also, Robert Quinn had 19 sacks.. naturally, the year before Williams took over.
FYI, all 3 of those were 1st-rd picks.
Rams DL was this year and will be for the foreseeable future the #1 DL in football.. perhaps not in production due to Williams but definitely in individual talent and payroll..
Note that Browns.com is reporting Hue did the firing of Horton -- leads me to think Hue pushed for that change.. So, it's not him losing control at all, rather him getting frustrated and making a move..
As well, apparently Williams was DC for 5 top-5 D's.. Tennessee (No. 1 in total defense in 2000), Buffalo (No. 3 in 2001 and No. 2 in 2003), Washington (No. 3 in 2005), and New Orleans (No. 4 in 2010)
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
oh no shit? is this verified?
.
I'm trying to... google coming up empty, but I know I read an account somewhere. I think it was in the Browns' reddit sub. Still looking, but it's harder to dredge up "threads" over there.
Horton is not fired...Yet. Greg Williams has till Monday to decide on the offer but Horty is still here. Awkward.
Awkward plus...
I like Wade best too. That said, Greg Williams also has HC experience in Buffalo even if it's one he'd like to forget. With both buys, they're best wired to be DCs. I think Williams has SB experience as a DC in TN. I can't remember if he was also the DC of New Orleans when they won the SB; but there's a pretty resume for him on that side of the ball.
That was Gregg as DC in NOLA's SB year. His D was 20th in points allowed and 25th in yards. But NO was geared to outscore opponents and #1 in both categories on Offense, so there was a lot of prevent D late in games.
Gregg's BUF HC gig was forgettable... as in I did not* remember him in that role for 3 years, but he did improve them from year one to year two (8-8) and his D was 15th in yards allowed. Career path shows a pretty meteoric rise with only 4 years at the DC level, all under Fisher in TN... in fact his whole NFL career prior to BUF was under Fisher.
________________________________
*Edited in an important excluded word...
.
I'm trying to... google coming up empty, but I know I read an account somewhere. I think it was in the Browns' reddit sub. Still looking, but it's harder to dredge up "threads" over there.
Awkward plus...
That was Gregg as DC in NOLA's SB year. His D was 20th in points allowed and 25th in yards. But NO was geared to outscore opponents and #1 in both categories on Offense, so there was a lot of prevent D late in games.
Gregg's BUF HC gig was forgettable... as in I did remember him in that role for 3 years, but he did improve them from year one to year two (8-8) and his D was 15th in yards allowed. Career path shows a pretty meteoric rise with only 4 years at the DC level, all under Fisher in TN... in fact his whole NFL career prior to BUF was under Fisher.
True; and if memory serves me right they did pretty well at forcing turnovers which is every bit as important. They've always scored a lot of points with Brees there; but he's often had to feel like Dan Fouts with do I need to QB us to 35-40 points in order to win every week? That changes when your defense forces turnovers and either shortens the field or scores.
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different players c'mon now. Von was a 4-3 olb'er when he first came to the NFL right?
4-3 DE in 2009. 3-4 OLB in 2010.
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different players c'mon now. Von was a 4-3 olb'er when he first came to the NFL right?
4-3 DE in 2009. 3-4 OLB in 2010.
4-3 DE in 2009. 3-4 OLB in 2010.
Ehhh u might be right i think i was mixing up him and mack there
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oh no shit? is this verified?
.
I'm trying to... google coming up empty, but I know I read an account somewhere. I think it was in the Browns' reddit sub. Still looking, but it's harder to dredge up "threads" over there.
Horton is not fired...Yet. Greg Williams has till Monday to decide on the offer but Horty is still here. Awkward.
Awkward plus...
I like Wade best too. That said, Greg Williams also has HC experience in Buffalo even if it's one he'd like to forget. With both buys, they're best wired to be DCs. I think Williams has SB experience as a DC in TN. I can't remember if he was also the DC of New Orleans when they won the SB; but there's a pretty resume for him on that side of the ball.
That was Gregg as DC in NOLA's SB year. His D was 20th in points allowed and 25th in yards. But NO was geared to outscore opponents and #1 in both categories on Offense, so there was a lot of prevent D late in games.
Gregg's BUF HC gig was forgettable... as in I did not* remember him in that role for 3 years, but he did improve them from year one to year two (8-8) and his D was 15th in yards allowed. Career path shows a pretty meteoric rise with only 4 years at the DC level, all under Fisher in TN... in fact his whole NFL career prior to BUF was under Fisher.
________________________________
*Edited in an important excluded word...
Gregg's BUF HC gig was forgettable... as in I did not* remember him in that role for 3 years, but he did improve them from year one to year two (8-8) and his D was 15th in yards allowed. Career path shows a pretty meteoric rise with only 4 years at the DC level, all under Fisher in TN... in fact his whole NFL career prior to BUF was under Fisher.
________________________________
*Edited in an important excluded word...
Clearing the record above... my memory is not that good.
Also did not flesh out the meteoric bit... was going for "rose too fast too soon with little breathe of experience" when a damn squirrel ran through my peripheral vision.
True; and if memory serves me right they did pretty well at forcing turnovers which is every bit as important. They've always scored a lot of points with Brees there; but he's often had to feel like Dan Fouts with do I need to QB us to 35-40 points in order to win every week? That changes when your defense forces turnovers and either shortens the field or scores.
I remember a very aggressive D in NOLA... one that used it to compensate for a lack of talent effectively. Not that they were talent-less, but did not include the household names of other contemporary Ds. Mr. Bountygate, Vilma was there... also Will Smith (R.I.P.)... with Sharper anchoring their 2ndary. Plus my old fav from the too-short, Mangenius era, Scott Fujita...
Just looked and NO posted 35 sacks and 39 TOs in '09... and needed the latter to eek out a +11 differential.
Maybe Brees is a gunslinger after all...
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