QB Questions
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I loved Sipe, too... but the phrase "QBs like Sipe and Montana" should never be uttered... not even in a limited sense.
Any QB with Sipe-like numbers (56% completion and 1:1 TD-INT ratio) would not last two seasons in today's Cleveland atmosphere.
Arm strength and physical statue are no substitute for a high QB IQ, and if I have to set my slider towards one end, then I would chose IQ... but I really don't want to choose.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I loved Sipe, too... but the phrase "QBs like Sipe and Montana" should never be uttered... not even in a limited sense.
Any QB with Sipe-like numbers (56% completion and 1:1 TD-INT ratio) would not last two seasons in today's Cleveland atmosphere.
Arm strength and physical statue are no substitute for a high QB IQ, and if I have to set my slider towards one end, then I would chose IQ... but I really don't want to choose.
I loved Sipe, too... but the phrase "QBs like Sipe and Montana" should never be uttered... not even in a limited sense.
Any QB with Sipe-like numbers (56% completion and 1:1 TD-INT ratio) would not last two seasons in today's Cleveland atmosphere.
Arm strength and physical statue are no substitute for a high QB IQ, and if I have to set my slider towards one end, then I would chose IQ... but I really don't want to choose.
I hear ya. As you know, Sipe played on some bad teams that helped bring that TD:INT ratio in the wrong direction. He mixed in a nice 3 year stretch where he averaged over 4000 yards passing on a team chasing many late deficits. I think what I enjoyed so much about him was despite all his imperfections/limitations inclusive of some forgettable first 58 minute stretches from him at QB - his will to win in the final 2 minutes regardless of what he had around him making me forget this was a guy that wasn't supposed to be starting in this league - let alone consistently winning while doing so. Pretty cool to see him start our Kardiac Kids era that would eventually resurface in the 80s with my other favorite QB Bernie Kosar.
Thought you might find this interesting in terms of re-visiting some familiar names and fond memories - here's a list of stats from him and those he threw the football to in 1980:
QB Brian Sipe 337 of 554 for 4,132 yards 30 TD 14 INT
WR Dave Logan 51 rec 822 yards 4 TD
WR Reggie Rucker 52 rec 768 yards 4 TD
TE Ozzie Newsome 51 rec 594 yards 3 TD
RB Greg Pruitt 50 rec 444 yards 5 TD
FB Mike Pruitt 63 rec 471 yards 0 TD
Other Contributors:
WR Rickey Feacher 10 rec 244 yards 4 TD
WR Keith Wright 3 rec 62 yards 3 TD
WR Willis Adams 8 rec 165 yards 0 TD
WR McDonald Oden 3 rec 18 yards 0 TD
RB Calvin Hill 27 rec 383 yards 6 TD
RB Charles White 17 rec 133 yards 1 TD
FB Cleo Miller 2 rec 8 yards 0 TD
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is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason? No matter who the QB is, it's going to be hard to win when the defense consistently gives up 30+ points a game. Personally, I hope the Browns draft stud defensemen with their first 2 picks, Garrett/Allen with #1 and some secondary help with the #12, Hooker would be great but I doubt he lasts until 12, maybe Peppers? The Browns also need a center, hopefully Elflein will still be there in the 2nd round.
My QB scenario for next season would be Kessler, with RG3 as backup and Hogan as the 3rd QB. McCown would be great as a coach but he just doesn't have the speed and durability to last long, plus he tends to choke away games by throwing dumb interceptions when the pressure is on. Kessler hasn't really wowed anyone last season, but I don't think he did bad enough to warrant giving up on him yet, especially when there are so many other holes on the team that need to be filled with the early draft picks.
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depends on the context. I believe Kessler has some limitations - arm strength, and durability.
The qb needs the arm to go downfield to keep defenses honest. Kosar loved to start
out a game on offense, by throwing way the hell downfield just to let the defense know
they had better not cheat up. I think Kessler, when older, will be just like McCown.
So, I'm fine with Kessler starting the season, with Trubisky in the wings, learning.
RGIII - always an amazing physical ability guy, can make some big plays, but then just flat out
brain freezes and makes really, really bad decisions. I hope I never see him take a snap,
and with the cb playing up close, the play is completely covered, and he still just throws
the ball out there quickly. Seriously? That tells me he doesn't process information on
the instant - his instincts for the game just aren't there.
To me, that processing information skill is rare. So many qb's come out of big schools, but without
being able to process the information instantly, you'll struggle in the NFL.
There is no player in the draft that will make a more dramatic impact than Trubisky at the first pick. If
the Browns trade for a veteran qb... I'm fine with that - THEN you can go defense with
your first two picks. Barring that trade... Trubisky has to be the pick.
The niners, bears, and jets at six NEED a qb. The chargers at seven need a qb. The cards at 13 need a qb.
There is no weakness to Trubisky's skills. Relying on "my homes" to be the guy doesn't
seem smart to me. He's a couple of years away, they say, and Trubisky is a better fit in several ways,
imho.
I've watched Trubisky do things at the snap, on a play, that I never see Kiser doing. Watson does.
but Watson doesn't seem a fit - the pros are a very different, high level game.
Trubisky had some better numbers in college than Derek Carr and Watson.
With no trade for a qb, I'd say it is Trubisky - it has to be.
http://rotoviz.com/2016/12/2017-nfl-draft-prospect-deshaun-watson/\\
Name Age AYA Completion % Rushing Yards TD/INT Ratio Deshaun Watson 21 8.2 67.6 524 2.47 Mitch Trubisky 23 9.2 68.9 270 7 Derek Carr 23 8.7 68.9 117 6.25 Russell Wilson 23 11.8 72.8 338 8.25 Cam Newton 22 11.2 66.1 1473 4.29 Aaron Rodgers 21 8.5 66.1 126 3 Marcus Mariota 22 11.5 68.3 770 10.5 Matt Stafford 21 9.2 61.4 40 2.5 Jameis Winston 21 7.7 65.3 65 1.39 Carson Wentz 24 8.7 62.5 294 4.25
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is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason? No matter who the QB is, it's going to be hard to win when the defense consistently gives up 30+ points a game. Personally, I hope the Browns draft stud defensemen with their first 2 picks, Garrett/Allen with #1 and some secondary help with the #12, Hooker would be great but I doubt he lasts until 12, maybe Peppers? The Browns also need a center, hopefully Elflein will still be there in the 2nd round.
My QB scenario for next season would be Kessler, with RG3 as backup and Hogan as the 3rd QB. McCown would be great as a coach but he just doesn't have the speed and durability to last long, plus he tends to choke away games by throwing dumb interceptions when the pressure is on. Kessler hasn't really wowed anyone last season, but I don't think he did bad enough to warrant giving up on him yet, especially when there are so many other holes on the team that need to be filled with the early draft picks.
is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason? No matter who the QB is, it's going to be hard to win when the defense consistently gives up 30+ points a game. Personally, I hope the Browns draft stud defensemen with their first 2 picks, Garrett/Allen with #1 and some secondary help with the #12, Hooker would be great but I doubt he lasts until 12, maybe Peppers? The Browns also need a center, hopefully Elflein will still be there in the 2nd round.
My QB scenario for next season would be Kessler, with RG3 as backup and Hogan as the 3rd QB. McCown would be great as a coach but he just doesn't have the speed and durability to last long, plus he tends to choke away games by throwing dumb interceptions when the pressure is on. Kessler hasn't really wowed anyone last season, but I don't think he did bad enough to warrant giving up on him yet, especially when there are so many other holes on the team that need to be filled with the early draft picks.
Actually, that was the entire reasoning behind my Chad Kelly vrs Mitch Trubisky thread.
1) I want us to draft the highest defensive impacts possible with our first 2 choices in round 1 and maybe even at the top of round 2 as well so whoever is playing QB here every week isn't down 7-0 every time we defer or lose the coin toss. I want to limit opponent scoring while getting turnovers from them in the process.
2) Meanwhile how much do we really know about Hogan or Kessler just yet? They should have a much better understanding of our offense this year with a full year of NFL strength and conditioning behind them.
3) My Chad Kelly intrigue wasn't because I have Queer Eye for Bad Guy/Injured QB - it was because I'm not convinced there's a lot of difference between skill sets from him and this year's top rated QB. His knee injury would prevent us from playing him too early if at all this year allowing us the chance to see what we already have in Kess, Hogan or both.
I don't know what the plan is up at the top so I'm trying to remain for many different scenarios that could shake out. This thread is meant merely as a Devil's Advocate for trying to keep people's minds open for Watson should we take him at #12 overall. He's got some really good decision making qualities under pressure that come from his ability to see things. He wouldn't beat Alabama without that intangible. Just because RG3 can't stay healthy doesn't mean Watson has to equate to made in China = stayed on Sideline.
My favorite scenario is to accept the defensive gifts that will continue to be on our door step in this draft early and often. I'm all about the sic em, sock em and sack em so the scores to beat for our QBs become more doable.
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Great Post Flug!! In HueWeMustTrust on this one too, our Friend. Can't say Kessler was a Hue miss to Goff or Wentz, so HueGottaBelieve. What's your thoughts on Watson missing out a week with Hue & 2 teams that need a QB? lotta clueless articles seem to be appearing, with his agents only reason being 1.two long seasons 2.Focus on preparing for NFL Combine. Interesting on how that sits in "our love of the game" FO. Not like Allen nor Foster could improve their draft stock this week. But Watson Could have, in more ways than just one this week??
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends Team Brotherhood-"It's not about You,Me or I. It's about building We"..Hue Jackson -
depends on the context. I believe Kessler has some limitations - arm strength, and durability.
The qb needs the arm to go downfield to keep defenses honest. Kosar loved to start
out a game on offense, by throwing way the hell downfield just to let the defense know
they had better not cheat up. I think Kessler, when older, will be just like McCown.
So, I'm fine with Kessler starting the season, with Trubisky in the wings, learning.
RGIII - always an amazing physical ability guy, can make some big plays, but then just flat out
brain freezes and makes really, really bad decisions. I hope I never see him take a snap,
and with the cb playing up close, the play is completely covered, and he still just throws
the ball out there quickly. Seriously? That tells me he doesn't process information on
the instant - his instincts for the game just aren't there.
To me, that processing information skill is rare. So many qb's come out of big schools, but without
being able to process the information instantly, you'll struggle in the NFL.
There is no player in the draft that will make a more dramatic impact than Trubisky at the first pick. If
the Browns trade for a veteran qb... I'm fine with that - THEN you can go defense with
your first two picks. Barring that trade... Trubisky has to be the pick.
The niners, bears, and jets at six NEED a qb. The chargers at seven need a qb. The cards at 13 need a qb.
There is no weakness to Trubisky's skills. Relying on "my homes" to be the guy doesn't
seem smart to me. He's a couple of years away, they say, and Trubisky is a better fit in several ways,
imho.
I've watched Trubisky do things at the snap, on a play, that I never see Kiser doing. Watson does.
but Watson doesn't seem a fit - the pros are a very different, high level game.
Trubisky had some better numbers in college than Derek Carr and Watson.
With no trade for a qb, I'd say it is Trubisky - it has to be.
http://rotoviz.com/2016/12/2017-nfl-draft-prospect-deshaun-watson/\\
Name Age AYA Completion % Rushing Yards TD/INT Ratio Deshaun Watson 21 8.2 67.6 524 2.47 Mitch Trubisky 23 9.2 68.9 270 7 Derek Carr 23 8.7 68.9 117 6.25 Russell Wilson 23 11.8 72.8 338 8.25 Cam Newton 22 11.2 66.1 1473 4.29 Aaron Rodgers 21 8.5 66.1 126 3 Marcus Mariota 22 11.5 68.3 770 10.5 Matt Stafford 21 9.2 61.4 40 2.5 Jameis Winston 21 7.7 65.3 65 1.39 Carson Wentz 24 8.7 62.5 294 4.25
I've watched Trubisky do things at the snap, on a play, that I never see Kiser doing. Watson does.
but Watson doesn't seem a fit - the pros are a very different, high level game.
I wonder if a former NFL DC and Head Coach like Nick Saban would agree with your opinion of Watson. It sounds like you could you see Saban saying "yeah, that Watson kid looked like an absolute train wreck against all my guys that will be stock-piling NFL rosters as starters soon. How many times have you seen Trubisky play again? How often was he the reason his team won on those occasions? Isn't it possible that because Trubisky is from from Mentor, Ohio that he's getting a lot of unwillingness by fans in here to see a guy that locks onto his primary target at a level he can get away with that?
Am I really one of the only guys willing to see red flags or weaknesses on Trubisky? The funniest part of that is most of the guys in Camp Trubisky haven't seen more than 2 or 3 of his performances in his entire body of work in college. You know I respect the Hell out of you and Hoorta. However, when it comes to you guys regarding Trubisky - I've heard more "yeah but" from you 2 guys than all the Budweiser Frogs starring commercials over the years.
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I've watched Trubisky do things at the snap, on a play, that I never see Kiser doing. Watson does.
but Watson doesn't seem a fit - the pros are a very different, high level game.
I wonder if a former NFL DC and Head Coach like Nick Saban would agree with your opinion of Watson. It sounds like you could you see Saban saying "yeah, that Watson kid looked like an absolute train wreck against all my guys that will be stock-piling NFL rosters as starters soon. How many times have you seen Trubisky play again? How often was he the reason his team won on those occasions? Isn't it possible that because Trubisky is from from Mentor, Ohio that he's getting a lot of unwillingness by fans in here to see a guy that locks onto his primary target at a level he can get away with that?
Am I really one of the only guys willing to see red flags or weaknesses on Trubisky? The funniest part of that is most of the guys in Camp Trubisky haven't seen more than 2 or 3 of his performances in his entire body of work in college. You know I respect the Hell out of you and Hoorta. However, when it comes to you guys regarding Trubisky - I've heard more "yeah but" from you 2 guys than all the Budweiser Frogs starring commercials over the years.
I wonder if a former NFL DC and Head Coach like Nick Saban would agree with your opinion of Watson. It sounds like you could you see Saban saying "yeah, that Watson kid looked like an absolute train wreck against all my guys that will be stock-piling NFL rosters as starters soon. How many times have you seen Trubisky play again? How often was he the reason his team won on those occasions? Isn't it possible that because Trubisky is from from Mentor, Ohio that he's getting a lot of unwillingness by fans in here to see a guy that locks onto his primary target at a level he can get away with that?
Am I really one of the only guys willing to see red flags or weaknesses on Trubisky? The funniest part of that is most of the guys in Camp Trubisky haven't seen more than 2 or 3 of his performances in his entire body of work in college. You know I respect the Hell out of you and Hoorta. However, when it comes to you guys regarding Trubisky - I've heard more "yeah but" from you 2 guys than all the Budweiser Frogs starring commercials over the years.
Nope-you are not the only one. Because someone wants to be the hero from Ohio does not equate to #1 overall. Give me winners that win, not pretty local boys that look the part.
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Great Post Flug!! In HueWeMustTrust on this one too, our Friend. Can't say Kessler was a Hue miss to Goff or Wentz, so HueGottaBelieve. What's your thoughts on Watson missing out a week with Hue & 2 teams that need a QB? lotta clueless articles seem to be appearing, with his agents only reason being 1.two long seasons 2.Focus on preparing for NFL Combine. Interesting on how that sits in "our love of the game" FO. Not like Allen nor Foster could improve their draft stock this week. But Watson Could have, in more ways than just one this week??
Great Post Flug!! In HueWeMustTrust on this one too, our Friend. Can't say Kessler was a Hue miss to Goff or Wentz, so HueGottaBelieve. What's your thoughts on Watson missing out a week with Hue & 2 teams that need a QB? lotta clueless articles seem to be appearing, with his agents only reason being 1.two long seasons 2.Focus on preparing for NFL Combine. Interesting on how that sits in "our love of the game" FO. Not like Allen nor Foster could improve their draft stock this week. But Watson Could have, in more ways than just one this week??
Thanks Gumby! Could be that or the reality he finished playing a week after many other prospects did heading into an off season where he won't get the chance to rest and repair for any length of time. Also keep in mind Clemson played the equivalent of 2 Bowl Games, is 1 more than everyone else besides Alabama. I think that's a legit excuse considering he last played against a defense that might be better than the one he'd face in the All Star game anyway. On top of that, he practiced against a pretty damn good defense all year long as well.
Here's another thing I try to keep in mind when it comes to the Senior Bowl. Charlie Frye was the MVP of that game. Another year 2 defensive players (Brandon Graham from Michigan and UT's Dan Williams dominated in the game) while their NFL careers never had them looking like they could dominate. That may not be a great way to see that game or the week of practices because a lot of smaller school guys like Marpet or Wentz proved they did belong. I don't think that game helps some of the bigger school guys already slated for round 1. For that matter, it didn't even really move Dak Prescott up beyond round 4. Plus, there's always a risk of injury for someone that was probably already going to go somewhere in round 1.
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I'd like to roll with Kessler.
Me too and draft Trubisky.
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Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
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is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason? No matter who the QB is, it's going to be hard to win when the defense consistently gives up 30+ points a game. Personally, I hope the Browns draft stud defensemen with their first 2 picks, Garrett/Allen with #1 and some secondary help with the #12, Hooker would be great but I doubt he lasts until 12, maybe Peppers? The Browns also need a center, hopefully Elflein will still be there in the 2nd round.
My QB scenario for next season would be Kessler, with RG3 as backup and Hogan as the 3rd QB. McCown would be great as a coach but he just doesn't have the speed and durability to last long, plus he tends to choke away games by throwing dumb interceptions when the pressure is on. Kessler hasn't really wowed anyone last season, but I don't think he did bad enough to warrant giving up on him yet, especially when there are so many other holes on the team that need to be filled with the early draft picks.
is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason?
Yes and no.... or more accurately, no and yes...
I've no issue with Kess staying on board, but I'm not handing him the keys.
Drafting for D? Early, Day One, absolutely, but because that is where the impact, the most sure-fire, BPA impact, is. Beginning Day Two, BPA on the offensive side starts becoming competitive.
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Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
Spring league football in April will have NF scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
LOL... a virtual, "who was who" of players headlined there...
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Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
That will be an interesting thing to watch. The NFL needs a developmental league.
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Interesting Bears' article that encapsulates my take on the draft...
Prior to this year, the Oakland Raiders had been the laughingstock of the NFL. They hadn’t made the playoffs since 2003, and they had suffered from many bad draft selections. One draft class helped take them out of that hole. In 2014, they selected edge rusher Khalil Mack out of Buffalo in the first round. The explosive pass rusher is now one of the best defensive players in the NFL. They followed that up with the selection of quarterback Derek Carr from Fresno State. Before he got hurt late in the year, he was an MVP candidate leading the team with the best chance to beat the New England Patriots in the AFC championship. They followed that class up with two very good drafts, which helped fill in other needs. The Chicago Bears need to follow that approach.
The Bears have been following this method, but in reverse. They have had two very good drafts, but haven’t had one that’s blown everyone away. To do that, they will absolutely need to draft a quarterback. Like the Raiders though, they absolutely cannot reach for one.
Let’s take a look at the 2014 quarterback class. The consensus top three were Teddy Twatwater, Blake Bortles and Johnny Manziel (in no particular order). While all four were solid prospects, none of them were worthy of a high first-round pick. The Raiders realized this and drafted Mack instead in the first round. They eventually went with a value pick in the second round with Carr. The Jacksonville Jaguars, on the other hand, reached for Blake Bortles because they needed a quarterback. Oakland is an elite team, whereas the Jaguars are not.
This situation is very similar to what the Bears are in right now. They have a lot of needs, quarterback being one of them. Like the 2014 group, this year doesn’t have a QB that screams “future star”. Neither Mitch Trubisky, DeShone Kizer nor Deshaun Watson are close enough to being “sure-things”. All three have enough drawbacks that make them not worthy of being a true value pick in the top five. With the roster they have right now, the Bears cannot afford to reach for a position. They need to go with the best available value in every round. That strategy does not involve picking a quarterback in the first round. Instead, they need an elite defensive prospect.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bears-2014-raiders-draft-strategy-190346474.html
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I did make it that far and I also like the pick because under pressure, he produces. God knows he'll get plenty of opportunity for pressure here. Montana was an under pressure producer too. But will he still be there at round 2?
Thanks for reading it all Aggies! There's a lot of teams that either have old QBs or a shakey depth chart so I'm guessing he'll be gone. For example, he'd be a huge upgrade to Brock Ostrich on a team that might get JJ Watt back on the field working in tandem with Clowney. Sound like a nice margin of error for a Qb that can see a lot better than an Ostrich?
Thanks for reading it all Aggies! There's a lot of teams that either have old QBs or a shakey depth chart so I'm guessing he'll be gone. For example, he'd be a huge upgrade to Brock Ostrich on a team that might get JJ Watt back on the field working in tandem with Clowney. Sound like a nice margin of error for a Qb that can see a lot better than an Ostrich?
I have said that I think that Watson will be drafted in the Top 5. There may be as many as 5 QB needy teams drafting in the first 6 picks. (if not the Jags with Bortles...then mimimally 4). I stick to that.
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agree wholeheartedly with that article, Tour. There hasn't been a QB that I've seen that really outshines the rest (I just am not seeing it with Trubisky, maybe someone can link some footage of something I'm missing???). I really hope the Browns don't reach for a QB with their #1 and end up drafting someone who has to sit and develop for a few years instead of using the #1 to draft someone who can make an impact right away. I'd be OK with using a later round draft pick on a QB, but we already have 2 project QBs on the roster and it seems a waste to pick up another one when there are so many other holes to fill.
I wouldn't mind handing Kessler the keys next season. He did pretty well until the point when Hue wanted him to focus on downfield plays and benched him, I think that really screwed up the rhythm he had going on offense. He still needs to get the ball out quicker but having one NFL season under his belt + another offseason should help that. I have a feeling Hue is going to stick with RG3 though.
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Trubisky doesn't have the big body of work for me to share your comfort with. I also asked Gipper if he could give me any signature wins of him beating a more talented team like say a Rodgers over USC or Kosar over Nebraska or Montana over Texas but I never got an answer
Must have missed it Fluges. This NC team was not all that good overall. Had a very poor defense. But, they ended up 8-5.
Their "signature" wins, if you will came against:
Illinois
Pitt (who beat Clemson!)
Florida St.
Miami Fla,
Ga. Tech
Now, maybe beating FSU and Miami in the same season does not mean as much today as it did in the 90s, but those are still top notch programs.
NC had never been a powerhouse football program. A school where basketball dominates.
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I'm OK with giving Kessler 'the keys' for 2017. He isn't going to let you down, he's basically Colt McHoyer, as opposed to Brandon Manziel 3. And that's fine - we're not winning the superbowl next year no matter who's under center. And who knows, maybe Kessler actually evolves into a competent QB with a top defense, solid line and run game - stranger things have happened.
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