QB Questions
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Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
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is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason? No matter who the QB is, it's going to be hard to win when the defense consistently gives up 30+ points a game. Personally, I hope the Browns draft stud defensemen with their first 2 picks, Garrett/Allen with #1 and some secondary help with the #12, Hooker would be great but I doubt he lasts until 12, maybe Peppers? The Browns also need a center, hopefully Elflein will still be there in the 2nd round.
My QB scenario for next season would be Kessler, with RG3 as backup and Hogan as the 3rd QB. McCown would be great as a coach but he just doesn't have the speed and durability to last long, plus he tends to choke away games by throwing dumb interceptions when the pressure is on. Kessler hasn't really wowed anyone last season, but I don't think he did bad enough to warrant giving up on him yet, especially when there are so many other holes on the team that need to be filled with the early draft picks.
is there anyone on board with rolling with Kessler for another year and focus on getting the defense up to par this offseason?
Yes and no.... or more accurately, no and yes...
I've no issue with Kess staying on board, but I'm not handing him the keys.
Drafting for D? Early, Day One, absolutely, but because that is where the impact, the most sure-fire, BPA impact, is. Beginning Day Two, BPA on the offensive side starts becoming competitive.
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Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
Spring league football in April will have NF scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
LOL... a virtual, "who was who" of players headlined there...
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Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
Spring league football in April will have NFL scouts attend. Guess who got an invite to play.
That will be an interesting thing to watch. The NFL needs a developmental league.
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Interesting Bears' article that encapsulates my take on the draft...
Prior to this year, the Oakland Raiders had been the laughingstock of the NFL. They hadn’t made the playoffs since 2003, and they had suffered from many bad draft selections. One draft class helped take them out of that hole. In 2014, they selected edge rusher Khalil Mack out of Buffalo in the first round. The explosive pass rusher is now one of the best defensive players in the NFL. They followed that up with the selection of quarterback Derek Carr from Fresno State. Before he got hurt late in the year, he was an MVP candidate leading the team with the best chance to beat the New England Patriots in the AFC championship. They followed that class up with two very good drafts, which helped fill in other needs. The Chicago Bears need to follow that approach.
The Bears have been following this method, but in reverse. They have had two very good drafts, but haven’t had one that’s blown everyone away. To do that, they will absolutely need to draft a quarterback. Like the Raiders though, they absolutely cannot reach for one.
Let’s take a look at the 2014 quarterback class. The consensus top three were Teddy Twatwater, Blake Bortles and Johnny Manziel (in no particular order). While all four were solid prospects, none of them were worthy of a high first-round pick. The Raiders realized this and drafted Mack instead in the first round. They eventually went with a value pick in the second round with Carr. The Jacksonville Jaguars, on the other hand, reached for Blake Bortles because they needed a quarterback. Oakland is an elite team, whereas the Jaguars are not.
This situation is very similar to what the Bears are in right now. They have a lot of needs, quarterback being one of them. Like the 2014 group, this year doesn’t have a QB that screams “future star”. Neither Mitch Trubisky, DeShone Kizer nor Deshaun Watson are close enough to being “sure-things”. All three have enough drawbacks that make them not worthy of being a true value pick in the top five. With the roster they have right now, the Bears cannot afford to reach for a position. They need to go with the best available value in every round. That strategy does not involve picking a quarterback in the first round. Instead, they need an elite defensive prospect.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bears-2014-raiders-draft-strategy-190346474.html
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I did make it that far and I also like the pick because under pressure, he produces. God knows he'll get plenty of opportunity for pressure here. Montana was an under pressure producer too. But will he still be there at round 2?
Thanks for reading it all Aggies! There's a lot of teams that either have old QBs or a shakey depth chart so I'm guessing he'll be gone. For example, he'd be a huge upgrade to Brock Ostrich on a team that might get JJ Watt back on the field working in tandem with Clowney. Sound like a nice margin of error for a Qb that can see a lot better than an Ostrich?
Thanks for reading it all Aggies! There's a lot of teams that either have old QBs or a shakey depth chart so I'm guessing he'll be gone. For example, he'd be a huge upgrade to Brock Ostrich on a team that might get JJ Watt back on the field working in tandem with Clowney. Sound like a nice margin of error for a Qb that can see a lot better than an Ostrich?
I have said that I think that Watson will be drafted in the Top 5. There may be as many as 5 QB needy teams drafting in the first 6 picks. (if not the Jags with Bortles...then mimimally 4). I stick to that.
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agree wholeheartedly with that article, Tour. There hasn't been a QB that I've seen that really outshines the rest (I just am not seeing it with Trubisky, maybe someone can link some footage of something I'm missing???). I really hope the Browns don't reach for a QB with their #1 and end up drafting someone who has to sit and develop for a few years instead of using the #1 to draft someone who can make an impact right away. I'd be OK with using a later round draft pick on a QB, but we already have 2 project QBs on the roster and it seems a waste to pick up another one when there are so many other holes to fill.
I wouldn't mind handing Kessler the keys next season. He did pretty well until the point when Hue wanted him to focus on downfield plays and benched him, I think that really screwed up the rhythm he had going on offense. He still needs to get the ball out quicker but having one NFL season under his belt + another offseason should help that. I have a feeling Hue is going to stick with RG3 though.
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Trubisky doesn't have the big body of work for me to share your comfort with. I also asked Gipper if he could give me any signature wins of him beating a more talented team like say a Rodgers over USC or Kosar over Nebraska or Montana over Texas but I never got an answer
Must have missed it Fluges. This NC team was not all that good overall. Had a very poor defense. But, they ended up 8-5.
Their "signature" wins, if you will came against:
Illinois
Pitt (who beat Clemson!)
Florida St.
Miami Fla,
Ga. Tech
Now, maybe beating FSU and Miami in the same season does not mean as much today as it did in the 90s, but those are still top notch programs.
NC had never been a powerhouse football program. A school where basketball dominates.
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I'm OK with giving Kessler 'the keys' for 2017. He isn't going to let you down, he's basically Colt McHoyer, as opposed to Brandon Manziel 3. And that's fine - we're not winning the superbowl next year no matter who's under center. And who knows, maybe Kessler actually evolves into a competent QB with a top defense, solid line and run game - stranger things have happened.
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I loved Sipe, too... but the phrase "QBs like Sipe and Montana" should never be uttered... not even in a limited sense.
Any QB with Sipe-like numbers (56% completion and 1:1 TD-INT ratio) would not last two seasons in today's Cleveland atmosphere.
Arm strength and physical statue are no substitute for a high QB IQ, and if I have to set my slider towards one end, then I would chose IQ... but I really don't want to choose.
I loved Sipe, too... but the phrase "QBs like Sipe and Montana" should never be uttered... not even in a limited sense.
Any QB with Sipe-like numbers (56% completion and 1:1 TD-INT ratio) would not last two seasons in today's Cleveland atmosphere.
Arm strength and physical statue are no substitute for a high QB IQ, and if I have to set my slider towards one end, then I would chose IQ... but I really don't want to choose.
You are comparing different times. 56% and 1:1 TD to Int. ratios were the norm in the 70s. Bradshaw had those numbers. Stabler had those numbers. Dan Fouts had those numbers. Bob Griese had those numbers. John Unitas had those numbers. Bart Starr had those numbers. Joe Namath had those numbers. Staubach came close to those numbers. All Hall of Famers. Every QB that played in that era had those numbers. If those guys played today, they would likely have numbers reflecting the way things are now.
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Interesting Bears' article that encapsulates my take on the draft...
Prior to this year, the Oakland Raiders had been the laughingstock of the NFL. They hadn’t made the playoffs since 2003, and they had suffered from many bad draft selections. One draft class helped take them out of that hole. In 2014, they selected edge rusher Khalil Mack out of Buffalo in the first round. The explosive pass rusher is now one of the best defensive players in the NFL. They followed that up with the selection of quarterback Derek Carr from Fresno State. Before he got hurt late in the year, he was an MVP candidate leading the team with the best chance to beat the New England Patriots in the AFC championship. They followed that class up with two very good drafts, which helped fill in other needs. The Chicago Bears need to follow that approach.
The Bears have been following this method, but in reverse. They have had two very good drafts, but haven’t had one that’s blown everyone away. To do that, they will absolutely need to draft a quarterback. Like the Raiders though, they absolutely cannot reach for one.
Let’s take a look at the 2014 quarterback class. The consensus top three were Teddy Twatwater, Blake Bortles and Johnny Manziel (in no particular order). While all four were solid prospects, none of them were worthy of a high first-round pick. The Raiders realized this and drafted Mack instead in the first round. They eventually went with a value pick in the second round with Carr. The Jacksonville Jaguars, on the other hand, reached for Blake Bortles because they needed a quarterback. Oakland is an elite team, whereas the Jaguars are not.
This situation is very similar to what the Bears are in right now. They have a lot of needs, quarterback being one of them. Like the 2014 group, this year doesn’t have a QB that screams “future star”. Neither Mitch Trubisky, DeShone Kizer nor Deshaun Watson are close enough to being “sure-things”. All three have enough drawbacks that make them not worthy of being a true value pick in the top five. With the roster they have right now, the Bears cannot afford to reach for a position. They need to go with the best available value in every round. That strategy does not involve picking a quarterback in the first round. Instead, they need an elite defensive prospect.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bears-2014-raiders-draft-strategy-190346474.html
"This situation is very similar to what the Bears are in right now. They have a lot of needs, quarterback being one of them. Like the 2014 group, this year doesn’t have a QB that screams “future star”. Neither Mitch Trubisky, DeShone Kizer nor Deshaun Watson are close enough to being “sure-things”. All three have enough drawbacks that make them not worthy of being a true value pick in the top five. With the roster they have right now, the Bears cannot afford to reach for a position. They need to go with the best available value in every round. That strategy does not involve picking a quarterback in the first round. Instead, they need an elite defensive prospect."
That pretty well sums it up for Cleveland. Reach and be Jax or take that 2nd chance to get immediate defensive pressure.
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If you read the scouting report on Watson, he's doing pretty much the same thing. Mitch is more accurate, and has the better arm. Plus, to get distance on his throws Deshawn is heaving arcing rainbows to areas. Where he had Williams to bail him out. Not terribly impressed by his arm strength- we'll see if he dares to throw at the combine, IMO it's very average.
Before I address some of your points - it's important to understand if Cleveland honored your wish of Trubisky it would need to be done at #1 overall which turns down the pick of the litter at immediate defensive impact. If QB will be inevitable early somewhere, my alternative recommendation for Watson would be 1) after we drafted our defensive guy at #1 overall and 2) no queer eye for any other guy within a supply and demand that concerns me or 3) or not taking Watson in lieu of drafting more sic em, sock em and sack em.
To your points. So after Watson aced the challenges of defenses like Ohio State and Alabama with vision and poise, you've church moused him down into if he dares to show up to the combines? Just out of curiosity, what will the combines assure me? He'll have all day to throw against no pass rushes and no corners to wide open receivers running the right routes? Yeah, because that's exactly the utopian perks our QBs have been enjoying in Cleveland since 1999. I'd rather watch film that includes defenses challenging mechanics, time to throw, accuracy, poise and vision so I can see how he handles the types of situations he'll see plenty of at the next level.
Now we're back to the same arm strength issues that made Joe Montana an early round no no? A bunch of teams gift wrapped a Hall of Fame QB to SF in a mid round with some really pretty bows and ribbons.
The only MVP we've witnessed here in Cleveland over the last 50 years was supposed to have arm strength issues. Do I need to pretend Brian Sipe never existed? He threw for over 4000 yards when that was unheard of. Seems to me vision and poise has been very helpful to QBs like Sipe and Montana especially when it was time to erase a deficit late in the game. I've been hearing about bionic arms and prototypical QBs since we traded Paul Warfield to draft Mike Phipps at #3 overall. The only time we've aced the first round at QB was in the 85 and it required a supplemental draft to do so. Today, we have a t-shirt featuring a bunch of QBs that weren't keepers inclusive of some bionic arms like Weeden and Anderson.
Throughout countless Dalton rainbows before/after he improved his arm strength up to snuff, his team won the AFC North a few times because there have been very tall pot of gold targets like Eifert and Green seemingly at the end of every rainbow in the end zone.
Have you ever wondered why there's still QBs showing up to be successful every decade without bionic arms? Could it be they have the vision (beginning at pre-snap diagnosis) up until their release so that their throws are on time enough to fit the NFL's smaller windows. If you add poise to that it's easy to see why some of these guys consistently erased 4th quarter deficits when the margin of error was all the way down to 1 mistake = no dice.
Trubisky doesn't have the big body of work for me to share your comfort with. I also asked Gipper if he could give me any signature wins of him beating a more talented team like say a Rodgers over USC or Kosar over Nebraska or Montana over Texas but I never got an answer. Trubisky gave Stanford a great big almost but he threw a pick 6 locking onto his primary target - so guess who got the W? If this happens against your better opponents in college, what makes you think it gets any easier at the next level when he has to read progressions against more complex defenses on a bad team with less time to throw in a faster league vrs better closing speeds?
Now let me ask you this - how many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
My logic here is if he was slow to catch on and emerge in college - what makes the gig in Cleveland even easier for him after the tiny body of work? You better make sure you remember this if we end up turning down immediate defensive impact at #1 overall to take Trubisky. You know as well as I do that some years the supply and demand of football messiahs at QB in round 1 became absolute stinkers and franchise sinkers. While many (including me) argue Couch wasn't a bust - McNabb was drafted #2 overall by the team coming off the worst record in football. Which guy frequented post seasons and Conference Championship Games? Our franchise had Tim Couch and Akili Smith rated ahead of McNabb while we chose Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner in our expansion draft. Man, did that ever set the precedent ahead. I'm willing to look past unpopularity of Watson as an NFL prospect here today like we should have looked at McNabb more so than the veer option he played in. Does he see the field at the speed of the game? What college defenses have more NFL prospects than Alabama and Ohio State so you tell me... I've been wrong before though (especially with QBs)...
Before I address some of your points - it's important to understand if Cleveland honored your wish of Trubisky it would need to be done at #1 overall which turns down the pick of the litter at immediate defensive impact. If QB will be inevitable early somewhere, my alternative recommendation for Watson would be 1) after we drafted our defensive guy at #1 overall and 2) no queer eye for any other guy within a supply and demand that concerns me or 3) or not taking Watson in lieu of drafting more sic em, sock em and sack em.
To your points. So after Watson aced the challenges of defenses like Ohio State and Alabama with vision and poise, you've church moused him down into if he dares to show up to the combines? Just out of curiosity, what will the combines assure me? He'll have all day to throw against no pass rushes and no corners to wide open receivers running the right routes? Yeah, because that's exactly the utopian perks our QBs have been enjoying in Cleveland since 1999. I'd rather watch film that includes defenses challenging mechanics, time to throw, accuracy, poise and vision so I can see how he handles the types of situations he'll see plenty of at the next level.
Now we're back to the same arm strength issues that made Joe Montana an early round no no? A bunch of teams gift wrapped a Hall of Fame QB to SF in a mid round with some really pretty bows and ribbons.
The only MVP we've witnessed here in Cleveland over the last 50 years was supposed to have arm strength issues. Do I need to pretend Brian Sipe never existed? He threw for over 4000 yards when that was unheard of. Seems to me vision and poise has been very helpful to QBs like Sipe and Montana especially when it was time to erase a deficit late in the game. I've been hearing about bionic arms and prototypical QBs since we traded Paul Warfield to draft Mike Phipps at #3 overall. The only time we've aced the first round at QB was in the 85 and it required a supplemental draft to do so. Today, we have a t-shirt featuring a bunch of QBs that weren't keepers inclusive of some bionic arms like Weeden and Anderson.
Throughout countless Dalton rainbows before/after he improved his arm strength up to snuff, his team won the AFC North a few times because there have been very tall pot of gold targets like Eifert and Green seemingly at the end of every rainbow in the end zone.
Have you ever wondered why there's still QBs showing up to be successful every decade without bionic arms? Could it be they have the vision (beginning at pre-snap diagnosis) up until their release so that their throws are on time enough to fit the NFL's smaller windows. If you add poise to that it's easy to see why some of these guys consistently erased 4th quarter deficits when the margin of error was all the way down to 1 mistake = no dice.
Trubisky doesn't have the big body of work for me to share your comfort with. I also asked Gipper if he could give me any signature wins of him beating a more talented team like say a Rodgers over USC or Kosar over Nebraska or Montana over Texas but I never got an answer. Trubisky gave Stanford a great big almost but he threw a pick 6 locking onto his primary target - so guess who got the W? If this happens against your better opponents in college, what makes you think it gets any easier at the next level when he has to read progressions against more complex defenses on a bad team with less time to throw in a faster league vrs better closing speeds?
Now let me ask you this - how many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
My logic here is if he was slow to catch on and emerge in college - what makes the gig in Cleveland even easier for him after the tiny body of work? You better make sure you remember this if we end up turning down immediate defensive impact at #1 overall to take Trubisky. You know as well as I do that some years the supply and demand of football messiahs at QB in round 1 became absolute stinkers and franchise sinkers. While many (including me) argue Couch wasn't a bust - McNabb was drafted #2 overall by the team coming off the worst record in football. Which guy frequented post seasons and Conference Championship Games? Our franchise had Tim Couch and Akili Smith rated ahead of McNabb while we chose Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner in our expansion draft. Man, did that ever set the precedent ahead. I'm willing to look past unpopularity of Watson as an NFL prospect here today like we should have looked at McNabb more so than the veer option he played in. Does he see the field at the speed of the game? What college defenses have more NFL prospects than Alabama and Ohio State so you tell me... I've been wrong before though (especially with QBs)...
I'll answer you with this Tom. And you don't need to write a novel- I'm not going to change my mind. Who won the AFC- NFC Championships? It sure as hell wasn't the teams with superior defenses. That studly Texans defense is at home too. FWIW, I like Garrett- but franchise qb trumps edge rusher. If there's a qb you think can be "the guy" but gee if we wait until #12 and hope he'll still be there because we"ll miss out on Garrett or Allen is chickenshit thinking.
It starts and ends with a franchise qb. You think Watson is going to magically learn how to be accurate deep? Go watch the tape. Learn how to not throw all those interceptions? Learn how not to get killed? Deshawn is no more "NFL Ready" than any of the other prospects.
https://twitter.com/NFLRT/status/818671083805175808
I was talking about THROWING at the combine, doubtless he'll show up. I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb, and plenty of scouts share that position. Though this has been debated in another thread, if Watson REALLY wanted the Browns to draft hm- MHO is he wouldn't have skipped the Senior Bowl. If you don't realize, (and I've said elsewhere) we already have his bum clone on the roster by the name of RG III, and Griffin even has a better (though not more accurate) arm than Watson. Don't see the similarities? Can't help you.
Yada, yada, so he won a lot of games in college- so did Vince Young.
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
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agree wholeheartedly with that article, Tour. There hasn't been a QB that I've seen that really outshines the rest (I just am not seeing it with Trubisky, maybe someone can link some footage of something I'm missing???). I really hope the Browns don't reach for a QB with their #1 and end up drafting someone who has to sit and develop for a few years instead of using the #1 to draft someone who can make an impact right away. I'd be OK with using a later round draft pick on a QB, but we already have 2 project QBs on the roster and it seems a waste to pick up another one when there are so many other holes to fill.
I wouldn't mind handing Kessler the keys next season. He did pretty well until the point when Hue wanted him to focus on downfield plays and benched him, I think that really screwed up the rhythm he had going on offense. He still needs to get the ball out quicker but having one NFL season under his belt + another offseason should help that. I have a feeling Hue is going to stick with RG3 though.
So, h... you're betting the franchise on Mitch?
agree wholeheartedly with that article, Tour. There hasn't been a QB that I've seen that really outshines the rest (I just am not seeing it with Trubisky, maybe someone can link some footage of something I'm missing???). I really hope the Browns don't reach for a QB with their #1 and end up drafting someone who has to sit and develop for a few years instead of using the #1 to draft someone who can make an impact right away. I'd be OK with using a later round draft pick on a QB, but we already have 2 project QBs on the roster and it seems a waste to pick up another one when there are so many other holes to fill.
I wouldn't mind handing Kessler the keys next season. He did pretty well until the point when Hue wanted him to focus on downfield plays and benched him, I think that really screwed up the rhythm he had going on offense. He still needs to get the ball out quicker but having one NFL season under his belt + another offseason should help that. I have a feeling Hue is going to stick with RG3 though.
Thanks... at the risk of biting the hand that is agreeing with me... here are a couple points for your consideration...
If at least one of your project QB is seen as a future "franchise" candidate, then you turnover the queue. I'm pretty sure at least one between Kess and Hogan will not be missed.
It wasn't a matter of Hue wanting Kess to focus downfield, it was a matter of Kess spitting the bit on plays designed to be "chunk" plays. Throws that the box relayed to Hue "were there"... repeatedly. The game when Kess was "benched" was the Week 10 rematch with the Ravens. At the time of his benching he was 11 of 18 for 91 yards... in the 3rd quarter. Not sure what kind of rhythm those stats represent.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Against the Ravens, it seemed like Kessler was playing a different game than the week before. I remember he seemed more rattled and trying to force the ball to get some of the "chunk" plays instead of taking what was there like he did the previous week. But, this could be biased because I don't want to spend the first overall pick on a QB and I'm trying to justify that
Also, a whole offseason working with the receivers should help out with that.I just had the chance to watch the NC vs. Pitt game. There's good and bad with Trubisky. Good: he does have a big arm and made some very nice throws. He did great in the 4th quarter for the comeback victory, impressive the way he was able to march the team downfield. Bad: he tends to lock on to receivers, I didn't see him move his head as much as I would like and he took some sacks as a result of waiting for his locked-on target to get open. He also gets inaccurate when he's under pressure, not a good trait for a Browns QB to have. Switzer looked great in that game though. In any case, that was one game, I'll try watching the others that were suggested to see if I can see what others see, but so far I'm still skeptical that he's worth a #1. I don't see a franchise savior yet. Another point, Gipper said it himself: NC is not a football powerhouse. The fact that Trubisky couldn't win the starting job until his senior year in a non-football powerhouse is worrisome, what makes you think he can be an NFL starter on a team not stacked in his favor?
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So, h... you're betting the franchise on Mitch?
agree wholeheartedly with that article, Tour. There hasn't been a QB that I've seen that really outshines the rest (I just am not seeing it with Trubisky, maybe someone can link some footage of something I'm missing???). I really hope the Browns don't reach for a QB with their #1 and end up drafting someone who has to sit and develop for a few years instead of using the #1 to draft someone who can make an impact right away. I'd be OK with using a later round draft pick on a QB, but we already have 2 project QBs on the roster and it seems a waste to pick up another one when there are so many other holes to fill.
I wouldn't mind handing Kessler the keys next season. He did pretty well until the point when Hue wanted him to focus on downfield plays and benched him, I think that really screwed up the rhythm he had going on offense. He still needs to get the ball out quicker but having one NFL season under his belt + another offseason should help that. I have a feeling Hue is going to stick with RG3 though.
Thanks... at the risk of biting the hand that is agreeing with me... here are a couple points for your consideration...
If at least one of your project QB is seen as a future "franchise" candidate, then you turnover the queue. I'm pretty sure at least one between Kess and Hogan will not be missed.
It wasn't a matter of Hue wanting Kess to focus downfield, it was a matter of Kess spitting the bit on plays designed to be "chunk" plays. Throws that the box relayed to Hue "were there"... repeatedly. The game when Kess was "benched" was the Week 10 rematch with the Ravens. At the time of his benching he was 11 of 18 for 91 yards... in the 3rd quarter. Not sure what kind of rhythm those stats represent.
So, h... you're betting the franchise on Mitch?
The Raiders bet the franchise on Jamarcus- gee, they got to the playoffs before us . Here's our list of FAIL since 2007 courtesy of Wiki.
Just sayin' I like what I see of Mitch. I also saw every team in the Conference Championships had a franchise qb. Sure you can win a SB with defense- but you had better have studs at every position, not just edge rusher. MHO drafting Garrett and in all likelihood going for the second or third best qb this year just puts a band-aid on a qb wound that's been festering for decades. I don't know if Trubisky is the answer- but I'm certain Watson isn't.
2016 Robert Griffin III (5) / Josh McCown (3) / Cody Kessler (8)
2015 Josh McCown (8) / Johnny Manziel (6) / Austin Davis (2)
2014 Brian Hoyer (13) / Johnny Manziel (2) / Connor Shaw (1)
2013 Jason Campbell (8) / Brandon Weeden (5) / Brian Hoyer (3)
2012 Brandon Weeden (15) / Thad Lewis (1)
2011 Colt McCoy (13) / Seneca Wallace (3)
2010 Colt McCoy (8) / Jake Delhomme (4) / Seneca Wallace (4)
2009 Brady Quinn (9) / Derek Anderson (7)
2008 Derek Anderson (9) / Brady Quinn (3) / Ken Dorsey (3) / Bruce Gradkowski (1)
2007 Derek Anderson (15) / Charlie Frye (1)
Four swings and misses in the first round. We're due to get lucky. Bengals draft the likes of Akilli Smith and orther assorted bums before they hit on Dalton. Just because you strike out doesn't mean you don't keep swinging. And it doesn't mean drafting a qb in the second and third round every year either.
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Before I address some of your points - it's important to understand if Cleveland honored your wish of Trubisky it would need to be done at #1 overall which turns down the pick of the litter at immediate defensive impact. If QB will be inevitable early somewhere, my alternative recommendation for Watson would be 1) after we drafted our defensive guy at #1 overall and 2) no queer eye for any other guy within a supply and demand that concerns me or 3) or not taking Watson in lieu of drafting more sic em, sock em and sack em.
To your points. So after Watson aced the challenges of defenses like Ohio State and Alabama with vision and poise, you've church moused him down into if he dares to show up to the combines? Just out of curiosity, what will the combines assure me? He'll have all day to throw against no pass rushes and no corners to wide open receivers running the right routes? Yeah, because that's exactly the utopian perks our QBs have been enjoying in Cleveland since 1999. I'd rather watch film that includes defenses challenging mechanics, time to throw, accuracy, poise and vision so I can see how he handles the types of situations he'll see plenty of at the next level.
Now we're back to the same arm strength issues that made Joe Montana an early round no no? A bunch of teams gift wrapped a Hall of Fame QB to SF in a mid round with some really pretty bows and ribbons.
The only MVP we've witnessed here in Cleveland over the last 50 years was supposed to have arm strength issues. Do I need to pretend Brian Sipe never existed? He threw for over 4000 yards when that was unheard of. Seems to me vision and poise has been very helpful to QBs like Sipe and Montana especially when it was time to erase a deficit late in the game. I've been hearing about bionic arms and prototypical QBs since we traded Paul Warfield to draft Mike Phipps at #3 overall. The only time we've aced the first round at QB was in the 85 and it required a supplemental draft to do so. Today, we have a t-shirt featuring a bunch of QBs that weren't keepers inclusive of some bionic arms like Weeden and Anderson.
Throughout countless Dalton rainbows before/after he improved his arm strength up to snuff, his team won the AFC North a few times because there have been very tall pot of gold targets like Eifert and Green seemingly at the end of every rainbow in the end zone.
Have you ever wondered why there's still QBs showing up to be successful every decade without bionic arms? Could it be they have the vision (beginning at pre-snap diagnosis) up until their release so that their throws are on time enough to fit the NFL's smaller windows. If you add poise to that it's easy to see why some of these guys consistently erased 4th quarter deficits when the margin of error was all the way down to 1 mistake = no dice.
Trubisky doesn't have the big body of work for me to share your comfort with. I also asked Gipper if he could give me any signature wins of him beating a more talented team like say a Rodgers over USC or Kosar over Nebraska or Montana over Texas but I never got an answer. Trubisky gave Stanford a great big almost but he threw a pick 6 locking onto his primary target - so guess who got the W? If this happens against your better opponents in college, what makes you think it gets any easier at the next level when he has to read progressions against more complex defenses on a bad team with less time to throw in a faster league vrs better closing speeds?
Now let me ask you this - how many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
My logic here is if he was slow to catch on and emerge in college - what makes the gig in Cleveland even easier for him after the tiny body of work? You better make sure you remember this if we end up turning down immediate defensive impact at #1 overall to take Trubisky. You know as well as I do that some years the supply and demand of football messiahs at QB in round 1 became absolute stinkers and franchise sinkers. While many (including me) argue Couch wasn't a bust - McNabb was drafted #2 overall by the team coming off the worst record in football. Which guy frequented post seasons and Conference Championship Games? Our franchise had Tim Couch and Akili Smith rated ahead of McNabb while we chose Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner in our expansion draft. Man, did that ever set the precedent ahead. I'm willing to look past unpopularity of Watson as an NFL prospect here today like we should have looked at McNabb more so than the veer option he played in. Does he see the field at the speed of the game? What college defenses have more NFL prospects than Alabama and Ohio State so you tell me... I've been wrong before though (especially with QBs)...
I'll answer you with this Tom. And you don't need to write a novel- I'm not going to change my mind. Who won the AFC- NFC Championships? It sure as hell wasn't the teams with superior defenses. That studly Texans defense is at home too. FWIW, I like Garrett- but franchise qb trumps edge rusher. If there's a qb you think can be "the guy" but gee if we wait until #12 and hope he'll still be there because we"ll miss out on Garrett or Allen is chickenshit thinking.
It starts and ends with a franchise qb. You think Watson is going to magically learn how to be accurate deep? Go watch the tape. Learn how to not throw all those interceptions? Learn how not to get killed? Deshawn is no more "NFL Ready" than any of the other prospects.
https://twitter.com/NFLRT/status/818671083805175808
I was talking about THROWING at the combine, doubtless he'll show up. I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb, and plenty of scouts share that position. Though this has been debated in another thread, if Watson REALLY wanted the Browns to draft hm- MHO is he wouldn't have skipped the Senior Bowl. If you don't realize, (and I've said elsewhere) we already have his bum clone on the roster by the name of RG III, and Griffin even has a better (though not more accurate) arm than Watson. Don't see the similarities? Can't help you.
Yada, yada, so he won a lot of games in college- so did Vince Young.
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
I'll answer you with this Tom
I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I'll answer you with this Tom
I'm 100% with Ghoolie on this one- Watson will suck as an NFL qb
My qb pecking order as of today-
Mitch
Kizer
Mahomes
Watson
Kelly
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense? Just add Allen, Foster, Hooker, and a few others to the list, and I'll believe it. Garrett will make the Browns good enough this coming season so we'll have NO CHANCE of drafting that super stud qb in the 2018 draft short of doing a Rams\Eagles sell the ranch to get him- and even that may not be enough if an Andrew Luck level prospect surfaces. Gip pointed out by that line of thinking, the rest of the defense is complete doo-doo, and needs replacing. Thanks for agreeing when you pointed out Von Miller AND Co. To win it all you better have a TEAM of defensive studs. Miller compliments the rest of the great players they have- he's not the whole defense. He's also getting paid like a franchise qb. Yup, and Denver got knocked out of the playoffs because their qb sucks. New England's D is greater than the sum of it's parts- so until I see proof Sashi and Depodesta can draft like the Patriots- I'm not going to hold my breath.
Regarding your qb protest- One and IIRC it was Newton. There's a second time for everything. To be fair- the grades on Watson are all over the map- remind you of our former party boy qb? Third round talent per some playoff teams? Walter Football shares my opinion that predates this little blurb.
"In this draft analyst's opinion, I would grade Watson as a third-round pick for the 2017 NFL Draft. 1) Watson has been off with his accuracy this year, displaying poor ball placement, especially when going downfield. He has missed a lot of potential touchdowns as a result. Watson's performance against Louisville confirmed the accuracy and ball-placement problems we've seen all season. He hasn't dominated, and his play is not that of a top quarterback prospect. 2) All of this illustrates that Watson still has room for improvement with his field vision, ball placement, and accuracy. He did finish the regular season playing better, but that doesn't make up for the struggles in the first two-thirds of the season.Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftrumormill#hkfDrsSaRzWlXDC5.99"
If you think Watson's performance in the playoffs is something special- go look up Vince Young's terrific run in the BCS. -
You didn't answer me. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
Ghoolie's franchise QB of choice last year was Paxton Lynch so he'll be thrilled to see 1 Cleveland fan still takes his draft advice very serious. I don't want any QB 1st in this draft. I want defense but I'm trying to keep somewhat of an open mind for one maybe at #12 overall or later. I'm not wild about this QB draft class so I run hot and cold with the open mind thing.
Now to answer your question. The AFC Champions gave up the fewest points in the NFL this year, which helped them go 3-1 without Brady. The previous AFC Champions beat NE 20-18 before Von Miller and Co beat down Cam Newton 24-10 in the Superbowl. Green Bay lost 44-21 because they didn't play defense while Atlanta pressured Rodgers, caused turnovers and stopped the run.
Our defense finished ranked 31st in our 1-15 season.
Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense? Just add Allen, Foster, Hooker, and a few others to the list, and I'll believe it. Garrett will make the Browns good enough this coming season so we'll have NO CHANCE of drafting that super stud qb in the 2018 draft short of doing a Rams\Eagles sell the ranch to get him- and even that may not be enough if an Andrew Luck level prospect surfaces. Gip pointed out by that line of thinking, the rest of the defense is complete doo-doo, and needs replacing. Thanks for agreeing when you pointed out Von Miller AND Co. To win it all you better have a TEAM of defensive studs. Miller compliments the rest of the great players they have- he's not the whole defense. He's also getting paid like a franchise qb. Yup, and Denver got knocked out of the playoffs because their qb sucks. New England's D is greater than the sum of it's parts- so until I see proof Sashi and Depodesta can draft like the Patriots- I'm not going to hold my breath.
Regarding your qb protest- One and IIRC it was Newton. There's a second time for everything. To be fair- the grades on Watson are all over the map- remind you of our former party boy qb? Third round talent per some playoff teams? Walter Football shares my opinion that predates this little blurb.
"In this draft analyst's opinion, I would grade Watson as a third-round pick for the 2017 NFL Draft. 1) Watson has been off with his accuracy this year, displaying poor ball placement, especially when going downfield. He has missed a lot of potential touchdowns as a result. Watson's performance against Louisville confirmed the accuracy and ball-placement problems we've seen all season. He hasn't dominated, and his play is not that of a top quarterback prospect. 2) All of this illustrates that Watson still has room for improvement with his field vision, ball placement, and accuracy. He did finish the regular season playing better, but that doesn't make up for the struggles in the first two-thirds of the season.Read more at http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftrumormill#hkfDrsSaRzWlXDC5.99"
If you think Watson's performance in the playoffs is something special- go look up Vince Young's terrific run in the BCS.Sure, and Garrett is gonna miraculously make us a top 10 defense?
You STILL didn't answer my question so I'll ask you a 3rd time. How many QBs that could only start 1 year in the ACC went on to become NFL franchise saviors?
I don't want a QB at #1 overall. You do. I've been looking for alternatives to that.
While I agree we need a franchise QB - I don't have enough evidence this draft has one at #1 overall. Therefore, I think we should take advantage of our ideal chance(s) to address our 31st ranked defense (which included us ranking last at sacking the QB). We cannot afford to flush the 1st overall pick down the toilet.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
If we go with MT at number 1 then you keep Kessler as the backup and Josh McCown as the player coach third string.
WSS
-
"This situation is very similar to what the Bears are in right now. They have a lot of needs, quarterback being one of them. Like the 2014 group, this year doesn’t have a QB that screams “future star”. Neither Mitch Trubisky, DeShone Kizer nor Deshaun Watson are close enough to being “sure-things”. All three have enough drawbacks that make them not worthy of being a true value pick in the top five. With the roster they have right now, the Bears cannot afford to reach for a position. They need to go with the best available value in every round. That strategy does not involve picking a quarterback in the first round. Instead, they need an elite defensive prospect."
That pretty well sums it up for Cleveland. Reach and be Jax or take that 2nd chance to get immediate defensive pressure.
That pretty well sums it up for Cleveland. Reach and be Jax or take that 2nd chance to get immediate defensive pressure.
Yes, a choice between Courtney Brown and Aaron Rodgers.
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