Can This Draft Start like our 1978 Draft?
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Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon
***************************************
I'm calling bullhocksies on that.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade
1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)
2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)
3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)
5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)
6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)
7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)
8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)
9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)
10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)
11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)
12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)
13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.
Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon
***************************************
I'm calling bullhocksies on that.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade
1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)
2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)
3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)
5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)
6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)
7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)
8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)
9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)
10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)
11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)
12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)
13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)
The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.
Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.
A decade is 10 years, in this case 16-07. Looking at 1st round picks only and not voting bust or star but looking at what you expect from a first round pick vs later round picks. Try to keep up.
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TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years
2016 - 0
2015 - 0
2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions
2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals
2012 - 0
2011 - 0
2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals
2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions
2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets
2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.
He's not any of those guys so I encourage you to watch the video. I gave you what to look for. Why are you so terrified to watch it? It's because you know he might actually intrigue you the way he's been intriguing scouts. I have zero to do with why he's flying up the charts. You may want to educate yourself as to why and how it's happening.
Some years there's a reason to value a position more than others. Your excuses why you don't want to even watch his highlights are because Jermaine Gresham and Brandon Pettigrew didn't work out? Really? Okay, if we're going to go the similar conference/school route for the same projected NFL position - Ozzie DID work out and OJ Howard is from the same school looking to be a 1st round NFL TE as well. BTW, Eifert had 13 TD receptions in 2015 back when Cincy won the AFC North with a 12-4 record while Greg Olsen had a Pro Bowl season for the SB bound Carolina Panthers despite missing their #1 WR Kelvin Benjamin all year. The year the Ratbirds won their first SB - their leading receiver (who also prevented Dilfer from hanging Dilfer) was Shannon Sharpe. Drew Brees' best receiver when New Orleans won a SB was TE Jimmy Graham.
Watch the video. If you still feel it would be much smarter for us to hand OJ Howard to Baltimore or Pittsburgh instead of drafting him I'll make sure you never stop getting credit for such wisdom. I promise.
He's not any of those guys so I encourage you to watch the video. I gave you what to look for. Why are you so terrified to watch it? It's because you know he might actually intrigue you the way he's been intriguing scouts. I have zero to do with why he's flying up the charts. You may want to educate yourself as to why and how it's happening.
Some years there's a reason to value a position more than others. Your excuses why you don't want to even watch his highlights are because Jermaine Gresham and Brandon Pettigrew didn't work out? Really? Okay, if we're going to go the similar conference/school route for the same projected NFL position - Ozzie DID work out and OJ Howard is from the same school looking to be a 1st round NFL TE as well. BTW, Eifert had 13 TD receptions in 2015 back when Cincy won the AFC North with a 12-4 record while Greg Olsen had a Pro Bowl season for the SB bound Carolina Panthers despite missing their #1 WR Kelvin Benjamin all year. The year the Ratbirds won their first SB - their leading receiver (who also prevented Dilfer from hanging Dilfer) was Shannon Sharpe. Drew Brees' best receiver when New Orleans won a SB was TE Jimmy Graham.
Watch the video. If you still feel it would be much smarter for us to hand OJ Howard to Baltimore or Pittsburgh instead of drafting him I'll make sure you never stop getting credit for such wisdom. I promise.
I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
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your judgement of what to expect is pretty subjective. The TE isn't
as dramatic an impact player when you lack a good qb, etc etc etc.
But you can add a TE in the right situation, and it is a dramatic impact.
way too short on comprehensive factors, you are.
for instance:
Look at the list I posted, and look at the number of playoff teams. The TE's are a major
factor in helping them get there. and twice it was the Patriots.
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Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon
***************************************
I'm calling bullhocksies on that.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade
1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)
2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)
3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)
5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)
6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)
7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)
8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)
9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)
10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)
11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)
12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)
13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.
Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon
***************************************
I'm calling bullhocksies on that.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade
1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)
2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)
3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)
5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)
6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)
7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)
8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)
9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)
10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)
11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)
12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)
13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)
The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.
Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.
Well done Cal! And then there's steals/grand thefts like some of those you alluded to and others after round 1 like Shannon Sharpe, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Brent Jones or an undrafted Antonio Gates that many teams would hind sight 20/20 all the way up into round 1.
Judging OJ Howard because of someone else at TE a different year would be like saying Jamarcus Russell is a perfect QB because Peyton Manning was. Huh???? On the other hand, if he looks like he can be an x-factor type of TE like Ozzie was here - when we saw how often the teams Ozzie played on here frequented post seasons - why wouldn't consider our history for the potentially similar skill set for our TE position in round 1? We sucked in 1977 while hoping to find a way to help out a 13th round Qb (Brian Sipe) in 1978. And did Ozzie help Sipe over the next 4-5 years?
Is it that impossible to click on a link and watch a 6 minute video?
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He's not any of those guys so I encourage you to watch the video. I gave you what to look for. Why are you so terrified to watch it? It's because you know he might actually intrigue you the way he's been intriguing scouts. I have zero to do with why he's flying up the charts. You may want to educate yourself as to why and how it's happening.
Some years there's a reason to value a position more than others. Your excuses why you don't want to even watch his highlights are because Jermaine Gresham and Brandon Pettigrew didn't work out? Really? Okay, if we're going to go the similar conference/school route for the same projected NFL position - Ozzie DID work out and OJ Howard is from the same school looking to be a 1st round NFL TE as well. BTW, Eifert had 13 TD receptions in 2015 back when Cincy won the AFC North with a 12-4 record while Greg Olsen had a Pro Bowl season for the SB bound Carolina Panthers despite missing their #1 WR Kelvin Benjamin all year. The year the Ratbirds won their first SB - their leading receiver (who also prevented Dilfer from hanging Dilfer) was Shannon Sharpe. Drew Brees' best receiver when New Orleans won a SB was TE Jimmy Graham.
Watch the video. If you still feel it would be much smarter for us to hand OJ Howard to Baltimore or Pittsburgh instead of drafting him I'll make sure you never stop getting credit for such wisdom. I promise.
I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
your judgement of what to expect is pretty subjective. The TE isn't
as dramatic an impact player when you lack a good qb, etc etc etc.
But you can add a TE in the right situation, and it is a dramatic impact.
way too short on comprehensive factors, you are.
for instance:
Look at the list I posted, and look at the number of playoff teams. The TE's are a major
factor in helping them get there. and twice it was the Patriots.
Can you read?
-
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon
***************************************
I'm calling bullhocksies on that.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade
1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)
2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)
3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)
5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)
6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)
7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)
8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)
9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)
10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)
11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)
12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)
13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)
The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.
Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.
Well done Cal! And then there's steals/grand thefts like some of those you alluded to and others after round 1 like Shannon Sharpe, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Brent Jones or an undrafted Antonio Gates that many teams would hind sight 20/20 all the way up into round 1.
Judging OJ Howard because of someone else at TE a different year would be like saying Jamarcus Russell is a perfect QB because Peyton Manning was. Huh???? On the other hand, if he looks like he can be an x-factor type of TE like Ozzie was here - when we saw how often the teams Ozzie played on here frequented post seasons - why wouldn't consider our history for the potentially similar skill set for our TE position in round 1? We sucked in 1977 while hoping to find a way to help out a 13th round Qb (Brian Sipe) in 1978. And did Ozzie help Sipe over the next 4-5 years?
Is it that impossible to click on a link and watch a 6 minute video?
Well done Cal! And then there's steals/grand thefts like some of those you alluded to and others after round 1 like Shannon Sharpe, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Brent Jones or an undrafted Antonio Gates that many teams would hind sight 20/20 all the way up into round 1.
Judging OJ Howard because of someone else at TE a different year would be like saying Jamarcus Russell is a perfect QB because Peyton Manning was. Huh????
Is it that impossible to click on a link and watch a 6 minute video?
I watched the video. And have not said anything about OTHER FUCKING TEAMS drafting him. You keep talking about him at #12 for the Browns and that is too high for a raw talent TE in an offensive system that is unproven and QB play that has been below average. I get the fact that the tea leaves tell you that a 39 year old pick makes this reasonable but god I hope the Browns brass don't.
In 2015 the Browns had a Pro Bowl TE and were 3-13. The team is in rebuild mode and in desperate need of talent and depth on defense.
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He's not any of those guys so I encourage you to watch the video. I gave you what to look for. Why are you so terrified to watch it? It's because you know he might actually intrigue you the way he's been intriguing scouts. I have zero to do with why he's flying up the charts. You may want to educate yourself as to why and how it's happening.
Some years there's a reason to value a position more than others. Your excuses why you don't want to even watch his highlights are because Jermaine Gresham and Brandon Pettigrew didn't work out? Really? Okay, if we're going to go the similar conference/school route for the same projected NFL position - Ozzie DID work out and OJ Howard is from the same school looking to be a 1st round NFL TE as well. BTW, Eifert had 13 TD receptions in 2015 back when Cincy won the AFC North with a 12-4 record while Greg Olsen had a Pro Bowl season for the SB bound Carolina Panthers despite missing their #1 WR Kelvin Benjamin all year. The year the Ratbirds won their first SB - their leading receiver (who also prevented Dilfer from hanging Dilfer) was Shannon Sharpe. Drew Brees' best receiver when New Orleans won a SB was TE Jimmy Graham.
Watch the video. If you still feel it would be much smarter for us to hand OJ Howard to Baltimore or Pittsburgh instead of drafting him I'll make sure you never stop getting credit for such wisdom. I promise.
I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.
So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.
You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.
When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.
So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?
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I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
your judgement of what to expect is pretty subjective. The TE isn't
as dramatic an impact player when you lack a good qb, etc etc etc.
But you can add a TE in the right situation, and it is a dramatic impact.
way too short on comprehensive factors, you are.
for instance:
Look at the list I posted, and look at the number of playoff teams. The TE's are a major
factor in helping them get there. and twice it was the Patriots.
Can you read?
Can you read?
No wonder why Zombo and a couple others thought you were an idiot a week or 2 ago.
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Well done Cal! And then there's steals/grand thefts like some of those you alluded to and others after round 1 like Shannon Sharpe, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Brent Jones or an undrafted Antonio Gates that many teams would hind sight 20/20 all the way up into round 1.
Judging OJ Howard because of someone else at TE a different year would be like saying Jamarcus Russell is a perfect QB because Peyton Manning was. Huh????
Is it that impossible to click on a link and watch a 6 minute video?
I watched the video. And have not said anything about OTHER FUCKING TEAMS drafting him. You keep talking about him at #12 for the Browns and that is too high for a raw talent TE in an offensive system that is unproven and QB play that has been below average. I get the fact that the tea leaves tell you that a 39 year old pick makes this reasonable but god I hope the Browns brass don't.
In 2015 the Browns had a Pro Bowl TE and were 3-13. The team is in rebuild mode and in desperate need of talent and depth on defense.
I watched the video. And have not said anything about OTHER FUCKING TEAMS drafting him. You keep talking about him at #12 for the Browns and that is too high for a raw talent TE
I'm not the only one eye balling him for #12. Daniel Jeremiah is a paid draft analyst doing so off his research while I've seen 6 other fans in saying in recent discussions they want him at #12. You asked Cal if he reads - do you?
You showed up with a smart ass comment mocking Howard twice in the same thread. I let the first one slide but joined the precedent you set the next time. I was expecting something far more impressive from you than Marty McFly losing track of when Barnidge last made the Pro Bowl; and way more coherent than if Gresham and Pettigrew sucked - a TE should never be considered up at #12 overall.
Yes, you were right we only won 3 games when Barnidge made the Pro Bowl. Unfortunately, that was 3 times as many games as we won when he only scored 2 TDs in 2016. When Ozzie gave us a Hall of Fame career at TE - we frequented playoffs throughout the 80s. Coincidence? That's the intrigue for finding an X-factor at the position. It's what he opens up for the WR Corps outside him and the QB behind him more than anything else. It's about understanding that kind of dynamic which is possible if your agenda isn't to be a smart ass first and foremost. I wrote all this in the OP to set up the context to follow which you leapfrogged.
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I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
your judgement of what to expect is pretty subjective. The TE isn't
as dramatic an impact player when you lack a good qb, etc etc etc.
But you can add a TE in the right situation, and it is a dramatic impact.
way too short on comprehensive factors, you are.
for instance:
Look at the list I posted, and look at the number of playoff teams. The TE's are a major
factor in helping them get there. and twice it was the Patriots.
Can you read?
Can you read?
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon
**************************************************
I read just fine. Can you THINK ? Apparently not, because I clearly referred to your statement
above, discounting all those picks, some which you conveniently left blank, as first round choices.
When you have the chance to draft a Gronk, you draft him. The Browns will add the other players
in FA and the rest of the draft. The more legit question, is Bucky Hodges also a terrific
adddition to add? Will HE even make it to 33?
You discounted all those other TE's as not being first round picks, that was the point.
Furthermore, the Patriots drafted Gronk in the second round - in 2010, only because
he couldn't play his last year in college for injury. Given the possibility of trading for say,
Garop.... which was the point - and the very deep cb draft... Howard most certainly
would be a dynamic pick. He's a sure thing immediate impact player - assuming other
weaknesses on offense are fixed, too. When you can draft greatness, probably? in the first
round, you do it. And greatness isn't defined as a player who just has great measurables
at the combine, but rather including character, work ethic, love for the game.
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Any prospect that comes out of the BAMA Offense has to be scrutinized closely. It is so talent laden year in and year out. It is so well-rounded that it tends to normalize performance to a high level. It is the epitome of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
The impact on individual players is that it makes some appear to be better than they are while others are better, or have more potential, than this normalization allows them to showcase. I think their OL and RBs have shown to be great examples of the former while their QBs, WRs and TEs are more representative of the latter.
I think OJH is one of those TEs. I think his role in the BAMA O has limited him. I think he has to be in the conversation at #12 as he would seriously upgrade the TE play on our roster.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go. Naturally I prefer more D help, but that is my bias on building a competitive team. But, that being said, if one of those was BPA, I'd have to go with him. We need this entire draft to be governed by BPA for a change, even if it means going against my bias towards D.
DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go. Naturally I prefer more D help, but that is my bias on building a competitive team. But, that being said, if one of those was BPA, I'd have to go with him. We need this entire draft to be governed by BPA for a change, even if it means going against my bias towards D.
I've seen that, but when I start reading about Njoku more and more, he's very raw, and
not as polished. Tremendous upside, predicted by several to be a TE that goes
later on in the first, like to the Giants, etc.
He had an 11 percent drop stat, for whatever reasons... not that strong in his base...
but he's amazing. Howard is just elite right now. Bucky Hodges is quite a player,
but more a 2nd round guy.
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We can't block or defend but hey a TE as the 12th pick, great call
We can't block or defend but hey a TE as the 12th pick, great call
K3?
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Any prospect that comes out of the BAMA Offense has to be scrutinized closely. It is so talent laden year in and year out. It is so well-rounded that it tends to normalize performance to a high level. It is the epitome of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
The impact on individual players is that it makes some appear to be better than they are while others are better, or have more potential, than this normalization allows them to showcase. I think their OL and RBs have shown to be great examples of the former while their QBs, WRs and TEs are more representative of the latter.
I think OJH is one of those TEs. I think his role in the BAMA O has limited him. I think he has to be in the conversation at #12 as he would seriously upgrade the TE play on our roster.
Any prospect that comes out of the BAMA Offense has to be scrutinized closely. It is so talent laden year in and year out. It is so well-rounded that it tends to normalize performance to a high level. It is the epitome of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
The impact on individual players is that it makes some appear to be better than they are while others are better, or have more potential, than this normalization allows them to showcase. I think their OL and RBs have shown to be great examples of the former while their QBs, WRs and TEs are more representative of the latter.
I think OJH is one of those TEs. I think his role in the BAMA O has limited him. I think he has to be in the conversation at #12 as he would seriously upgrade the TE play on our roster.
Very well said Tour!
Out of the 3 receptions he had over 50 yards on the Clemson Game video, I think the last one shows something really unique about his speed. He catches the ball behind the line of scrimmage where he outruns 3 defenders to get around the corner to the sideline. While jetting down sideline, there's Clemson LBers and DBs with ideal pursuit angles that can't catch him until the deepest defender out there finally knocked him out of bounds. I stopped seeing just a TE and starting projecting an X-factor.
Back in 1978, our FO didn't just see Ozzie Newsome as the Greatest WR Bear Bryant ever coached. They projected an X-factor which necessitated changing his position to TE. Ozzie was always good at blocking DBs and we never really asked him to be a Mark Bavaro at setting the edge. It was a smooth transition for him. He just opened things up for our WR Corps and completely changed the direction of the career of our 13th round QB (Sipe).
I think a guy like Howard could really help ease our WR matchups outside, which could help them get on the same page with our QB more frequently than they seemed to be in 2016. Not only that, but Howard's catch radius and speed makes him a legit scoring threat. Not long after Cincy drafted Eifert, he had 13 TD receptions in 2015 which was a huge help to his QB Dalton and his OC Hue.
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DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go. Naturally I prefer more D help, but that is my bias on building a competitive team. But, that being said, if one of those was BPA, I'd have to go with him. We need this entire draft to be governed by BPA for a change, even if it means going against my bias towards D.
DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go.
And NFL.com grades Njoku slightly lower. The difference between he and OJH that I see... blocking. Big, fast and agile TEs are NFL OCs' newest toy... and they are coming out of the woodwork. Ones who can fill that bill and block? That's the truly rare breed.
Here are NFL.com profile excerpts...
Njoku
- Strengths:
- Willing to compete as a blocker.
- Can push defensive backs around from slot.
- Gets early arm extension into defender and looks to create some turn.
- Shows lateral blocking ability for zone scheme.
- Weaknesses:
- Inexperienced at the position and still a work in progress.
- Needs to add to his play strength to handle in-line blocking as a pro. Don't skip leg days, bro.
- Struggled badly to stay in front of Pitt powerhouse Ejuan Price.
- Hands too high and wide at point of attack.
OJH
- Strengths:
- Lands his hands inside the frame as a blocker.
- Operates with wide base and attempts to snap hips into his block.
- Weaknesses:
- Will need more muscle and mass to be an in-line blocker as a pro.
- Appears passive. Doesn't have the field demeanor of most Alabama players.
- Needs better hand strength to sustain his blocks.
- Can do better job of working feet into position after contact.
One is a raw 22/23-yo needing growth and tech. The other is a schooled, 22-yo man-child waiting for his body to mature.
I was surprised to see Greg Olsen as Njoku's comparison player. I would think he's more like Vernon Davis.
- Strengths:
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I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.
Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.
Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.
So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.
You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.
When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.
So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?
Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.
So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.
You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.
When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.
So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?
I'm not the only one eye balling him for #12. Daniel Jeremiah is a paid draft analyst doing so off his research while I've seen 6 other fans in saying in recent discussions they want him at #12. You asked Cal if he reads - do you?
You showed up with a smart ass comment mocking Howard twice in the same thread. I let the first one slide but joined the precedent you set the next time. I was expecting something far more impressive from you than Marty McFly losing track of when Barnidge last made the Pro Bowl; and way more coherent than if Gresham and Pettigrew sucked - a TE should never be considered up at #12 overall.
Yes, you were right we only won 3 games when Barnidge made the Pro Bowl. Unfortunately, that was 3 times as many games as we won when he only scored 2 TDs in 2016. When Ozzie gave us a Hall of Fame career at TE - we frequented playoffs throughout the 80s. Coincidence? That's the intrigue for finding an X-factor at the position. It's what he opens up for the WR Corps outside him and the QB behind him more than anything else. It's about understanding that kind of dynamic which is possible if your agenda isn't to be a smart ass first and foremost. I wrote all this in the OP to set up the context to follow which you leapfrogged.
Ok one last time. I didn't "mock" Howard at all. So now, for the last time I'll make these points simple and clear.
Over the last ten years there has been one TE selected in the first 19 picks Ebron to the Lions at 10. Taking a TE at #12 is a stretch for any team but an unproven, and ineffective offense makes the pick even riskier.
The Browns are a tire fire, their defense is absolutely atrocious. There are so many NEEDS they have to fill, it's not the time to gamble.
I'm not saying he won't be good, I'm not saying that the failings of other TE's have any effect on his success. My point has been crystal clear since the beginning. The Browns have more needs than a "could be great" TE.
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Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.
So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.
You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.
When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.
So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?
I'm not the only one eye balling him for #12. Daniel Jeremiah is a paid draft analyst doing so off his research while I've seen 6 other fans in saying in recent discussions they want him at #12. You asked Cal if he reads - do you?
You showed up with a smart ass comment mocking Howard twice in the same thread. I let the first one slide but joined the precedent you set the next time. I was expecting something far more impressive from you than Marty McFly losing track of when Barnidge last made the Pro Bowl; and way more coherent than if Gresham and Pettigrew sucked - a TE should never be considered up at #12 overall.
Yes, you were right we only won 3 games when Barnidge made the Pro Bowl. Unfortunately, that was 3 times as many games as we won when he only scored 2 TDs in 2016. When Ozzie gave us a Hall of Fame career at TE - we frequented playoffs throughout the 80s. Coincidence? That's the intrigue for finding an X-factor at the position. It's what he opens up for the WR Corps outside him and the QB behind him more than anything else. It's about understanding that kind of dynamic which is possible if your agenda isn't to be a smart ass first and foremost. I wrote all this in the OP to set up the context to follow which you leapfrogged.
Ok one last time. I didn't "mock" Howard at all. So now, for the last time I'll make these points simple and clear.
Over the last ten years there has been one TE selected in the first 19 picks Ebron to the Lions at 10. Taking a TE at #12 is a stretch for any team but an unproven, and ineffective offense makes the pick even riskier.
The Browns are a tire fire, their defense is absolutely atrocious. There are so many NEEDS they have to fill, it's not the time to gamble.
I'm not saying he won't be good, I'm not saying that the failings of other TE's have any effect on his success. My point has been crystal clear since the beginning. The Browns have more needs than a "could be great" TE.
Taking a TE at #12 is a stretch for any team but an unproven, and ineffective offense makes the pick even riskier.
The Browns have more needs than a "could be great" TE.How about a "will be great" TE?
Also not sure how the the poor state of the Offense makes the selection of one of the few impact players in the draft on that side of the ball "riskier".
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.
So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.
You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.
When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.
So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?
I'm not the only one eye balling him for #12. Daniel Jeremiah is a paid draft analyst doing so off his research while I've seen 6 other fans in saying in recent discussions they want him at #12. You asked Cal if he reads - do you?
You showed up with a smart ass comment mocking Howard twice in the same thread. I let the first one slide but joined the precedent you set the next time. I was expecting something far more impressive from you than Marty McFly losing track of when Barnidge last made the Pro Bowl; and way more coherent than if Gresham and Pettigrew sucked - a TE should never be considered up at #12 overall.
Yes, you were right we only won 3 games when Barnidge made the Pro Bowl. Unfortunately, that was 3 times as many games as we won when he only scored 2 TDs in 2016. When Ozzie gave us a Hall of Fame career at TE - we frequented playoffs throughout the 80s. Coincidence? That's the intrigue for finding an X-factor at the position. It's what he opens up for the WR Corps outside him and the QB behind him more than anything else. It's about understanding that kind of dynamic which is possible if your agenda isn't to be a smart ass first and foremost. I wrote all this in the OP to set up the context to follow which you leapfrogged.
Ok one last time. I didn't "mock" Howard at all. So now, for the last time I'll make these points simple and clear.
Over the last ten years there has been one TE selected in the first 19 picks Ebron to the Lions at 10. Taking a TE at #12 is a stretch for any team but an unproven, and ineffective offense makes the pick even riskier.
The Browns are a tire fire, their defense is absolutely atrocious. There are so many NEEDS they have to fill, it's not the time to gamble.
I'm not saying he won't be good, I'm not saying that the failings of other TE's have any effect on his success. My point has been crystal clear since the beginning. The Browns have more needs than a "could be great" TE.
Ok one last time. I didn't "mock" Howard at all.
I made the thread about Howard who happens to play TE. And these are cut and pastes of your comments:
"Winter is getting long as the season is but a distant memory if we are now chatting about the next TE for the Cleveland Browns"
"We can't block or defend but hey a TE as the 12th pick, great call."
If that's not mocking what he offers us - I'm not interested in any more spin from you. Like I said, I let the first one slide. I might have even considered letting the next one slide if there wasn't a smart ass "great call" at the end of it from you.
All that, and you went right back to telling me how many TEs have been picked in the first round as if it'll have anything to do with Howard as a BPA. After people saw the way Payton used Jimmy Graham in the SB Championship season - and Gronk has also been lining up outside more often - is TE still just the boring stereotype you can only see? There is no getting you to see that position has evolved past Kyle Brady in the 90s especially when you're too busy repeating the Rain Man reply "yeah, no tight ends drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years..."
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
You cannot fix nor fill every need in just one draft as some picks will not pan out, that's just how the draft works.
For me that's why you pick what your board says is the BPA at every spot you find yourself in, and if that happens to be a tight end so be it.
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You cannot fix nor fill every need in just one draft as some picks will not pan out, that's just how the draft works.
For me that's why you pick what your board says is the BPA at every spot you find yourself in, and if that happens to be a tight end so be it.
You cannot fix nor fill every need in just one draft as some picks will not pan out, that's just how the draft works.
For me that's why you pick what your board says is the BPA at every spot you find yourself in, and if that happens to be a tight end so be it.
Good point London! IMO, another part of BPA is not stereotyping a guy to a position (because that subconsciously correlates with needs).
So, in this thread - Howard was getting critiqued by someone looking at how many TEs have been drafted in round 1 over the last 10 years which tells us what about OJ Howard? Zero. Not a thing. His talent, skills and physique are unique to him and have nothing to do with Pettigrew or Gresham.
Now, someone can argue I brought up Ozzie Newsome though. True, but the reason I did that was to show what an X-factor can do for an offense. The last position Ozzie played in college was WR not TE. The team that drafted him thought that moving him to TE would create the dynamic that opened up everything outside for the WR Corps while he threatened the middle seams/Safeties. All this helped the 13th round QB here begin to play his best football starting in 1978 coincidentally.
I'm guessing sometimes BPA fitting a need becomes a tie breaker if there's 2 BPAs being considered. When you have a 32 year old TE coming off a season he struggled to get open with only 38 catches and just 2 TDs, TE is a need. Aside from losing a step or 2, Barnidge wasn't blocking well either.
Therefore in Howard's case I think we not only have a BPA prospect but his dynamic also fits an important need for our struggling passing game.
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