Can This Draft Start like our 1978 Draft?

Tour2ma

@baconhound said:
This was the justification for Corey Coleman.

I must have missed that article...

BaconHound

@tour2ma said:

I must have missed that article...

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS Instant blur off the snap. Feet turn over at a blinding pace and he devours cushion before cornerbacks know what hit them. Able to get over the top of every corner he faced and demands safety help over the top. Works back to the ball. Explosive leaper with ability to climb ladder and win the 50/50 ball and body control to secure the acrobatic catch. Touchdown maker finishing 2015 with 20 receiving touchdowns. Smooth, speedy stems to the post will be difficult to mirror and match for NFL cornerbacks. Easy route adjustments in space. Defenders who try to jam and miss pay the iron price (touchdowns). Able to make tacklers miss in tight spaces. Has experience as ball carrier and punt returner. Heavily targeted (39 percent) in Baylor's high-flying attack.

WEAKNESSES Does his best work from outside the numbers, but lacks desired NFL size to play outside. Allows cornerbacks to leverage him against the sideline on deep throws. Takes longer than expected to gear down for comeback routes after hitting top speed. Ran limited number of simple routes. Hands are a concern. Fails to catch away from his body. Dropped 10 passes for a drop rate of 11.9 percent. Loses focus and concentration on routes that work towards the middle of the field or when he senses defenders are closing in. Had sports hernia surgery that forced him to miss his bowl game.

DRAFT PROJECTION Rounds 1 or 2 SOURCES TELL US "He's my top receiver. Now this is for what we do so he's going to be tops for me. He can do a lot of things and I'm not worried about those simple routes because he's got some gifts to work with. Like him a lot more than (Laquon) Treadwell or the Notre Dame guy (Will Fuller)" -- AFC wide receivers coach

NFL COMPARISON John Brown

BOTTOM LINE Dangerous vertical talent with the ability to get over the top of defenders who fail to recognize his blazing quickness off the line of scrimmage. Coleman can get instant separation to create favorable passing windows and is one of the top playmakers in this draft. Coleman's issues with drops near the middle of the field could be a concern if teams see him next as a slot receiver due to his lack of size. Regardless, he can line up outside and win and he offers immediate punt return help.

Raw talent, ton of upside. And again not writing him off but I think there were other players who could have been taken at #15 like Keanu Neal

gumby73

@baconhound said:

Raw talent, ton of upside. And again not writing him off but I think there were other players who could have been taken at #15 like Keanu Neal

its a good thought bacon, but did we know gordon was not going to be a dope again? & TP was coming off a 1 completion season..

Flugel

@baconhound said:

Not mocking Howard at all. Poked fun at discussing picking a TE #12 when we can't block, catch, throw or defend. If you don't think positions slot in the draft then you don't need to respond.

QBs slot and it's killed countless franchises.

Do Safeties always get drafted where Eric Turner was? No. The Browns drafted a unique talent.

When you get to the teens of round 1, usually the top/projected franchise QBs are gone. As you know, this year doesn't have a lot of projected franchise QBs. Howard plays a position that scores TDs and does that blocking you you worried about. The video of the Clemson game linked showed a lot of good blocks, good hands - 3 different receptions exceeded 50 yards within the 200 yard receiving night, and 2 TDs in a National Championship victory he X-factored.

And now you're talking about Corey Coleman, who doesn't catch with his hands like Howard does. Why would that be important in traffic? Why would an ideal catch radius on a 6'6" target help in traffic? And if the guy can jet, Safeties have to worry about him instead of helping on Pryor when our 32 year old Barnidge is moving around like he has Roseann Barr riding on his shoulder pads. When you only get 2 TDs from your starting TE in an entire season - the position is hibernating.

The link below is similar to the debate me and you had between Gribble and Zegura discussing McShay's and DJ's mock drafts. The only difference is Gribble isn't a smart ass. I like the points Zegura brought up about him standing out at the Senior Bowl and the week of practices in front of our coaches while you'll undoubtedly like what Gribble is saying.The last time Hue coached a good TE from round 1 (Eifert) - he got 13 TD receptions in 1 season from the position. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792

calfoxwc

@baconhound said:

TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years

2016 - 0

2015 - 0

2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions

2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals

2012 - 0

2011 - 0

2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals

2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions

2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets

2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.

and one other thing... it's convenient you left out 2006. Davis was the sixth pick overall, a TE.

I think Howard is a star immediate impact player. I will say this: With Foster's injury, it reminds me that

I read where his physical style of play would risk a shorter career. That perception in whatever

draft profile it was comes back to haunt him. I wouldn't take him now - the Browns need an

immediate dramatic impact player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Davis

No. 85 Washington Redskins Position: Tight end Personal information Date of birth: January 31, 1984 (age 33) Place of birth: Washington, D.C. Height: 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m) Weight: 248 lb (112 kg) Career information High school: Washington (DC) Dunbar College: Maryland NFL Draft: 2006 / Round: 1 / Pick: 6 Career history

Roster status: Active Career highlights and awards

Super Bowl champion (50)
National Football Conference champion (2012)
American Football Conference champion (2015)
2× Pro Bowl (2009, 2013)
Second-team All-Pro (2013)
NFL receiving touchdowns leader (2009)

Career NFL statistics as of 2016 Receptions: 505 Receiving yards: 6,424 Receiving touchdowns: 57 Player stats at NFL.com

calfoxwc

Furthermore - on BPA. If we look at, for argument's sake, the top 19 (I missed one)..players

according to CBSsports....given that we are going to draft an immediate impact player,

it's Garrett. He's elite at the top. But Allen, Thomas, Adams, Cook, Lattimore fill out the

non-injured players that fit for the Browns on defense - referring to immediate dramatic impact.

We have wr's.

So, if you have a great pass rush, why would a team draft Garrett, when Adams fits as a dramatic impact BPA?

If you already have the best defense in the NFL, adding a defensive bpa doesn't work

to help you dramatically. So, you are looking at trading down a few spots, and Howard or Cook

are the dramatic immediate impact players.

It's like the logical analogy "A is to B as C is to D"

Meaning, "Garrett/Allen/Thomas/Adams/Lattimore is to Defense as Cook/Howard/Trubisky is to Offense" If both hold true, then

what you NEED comes into play. If they don't, and you don't see Trubisky as an immediate impact

player, then you go from there. When you start looking into who the players are -character, work ethic,

love for the game, durability ...etc etc etc... you get to narrow down your legit picks

for your team. The Browns do not have the luxury of picking a currently injured player

early. Immediate impact probably goes out the window.

Having said that, I would love to win the lottery and be allowed to sit in on pre-draft discussions.

The Browns need pass rush/secondary on defense... and qb/OL/TE on offense.

It's a deep draft in cb's... it's complicated. If I had my elite qb and defense,

then I'm looking at other players on offense as the BPA, if they qualify as dramatic

impact players. Will my cb/rb pick be available later? Foreman? a great small school

cb/fs that could be there in the second round?

That is the same for the top few picks as the twelth pick. Who ranks as the players

with those qualities, who will be there at 12.

On both sides of the ball, it's Garrett at one. If my dline had been all set, it would be

Adams or Lattimore. If my entire defense was fine, it would be Trubisky, Cook or Howard, and

rb is way too high, I could trade down with the Bears and get Howard...

I think I need to go have pancakes and coffee for breakfast....

Myles Garrett DET

Jonathan Allen DT

Solomon Thomas DE

Malik Hooker Injured FS

Dalvin Cook RB

Jamal Adams SS

Reuben Foster Injured ILB

Mike Williams WR

Leonard FournetteInjured RB

Marshon Lattimore CB

O.J. Howard TE

Mitch Trubisky QB

Jabrill Peppers SS

Ryan Ramczyk Injured OT

Teez Tabor CB

Corey Davis WR

Tour2ma

Maybe decaf... your energy level seems fine.

Beyond the QB position, "impact" on the O-side is much harder for a single player to generate.

calfoxwc

@tour2ma said:

Maybe decaf... your energy level seems fine.

Beyond the QB position, "impact" on the O-side is much harder for a single player to generate.

Point well taken.

Why is that? The defense is to stop them, but the offense knows what it is going to do,

the defense generally doesn't...reacts..

I'll have to think about that one. How so?

The Gipper

@flugel said:

Here's a link showing the mock drafts from Todd McShay and DJ which is related to this debate:

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792

Again, I have said it over and over, MT will not fall to us at 12. Not with as many as 5 teams in the Top 10 looking for QB.

I would be thrilled if it happens.

But, it won't.

Tour2ma

@calfoxwc said:
I'll have to think about that one. How so?

I'll take a shot.

OL - while LT and C are key positions, impact is cumulative. There is no other player group where the unit is everything. We saw dramatically in 2015 how one weak position undermined an otherwise very strong unit.

WR - because he's half the equation. While a great #1 can elevate his QB, his impact is QB limited. Add the consideration that one, great WR can always be doubled and dependence upon the WR corps' cumulative proficiency emerges.

RB - the genesis of the game has taken its toll, but the position's impact has always been heavily reliant upon the OL group. That said, the right combination of acceleration, speed, power, agility, balance, hands and field vision behind the right line can be impactful, but that is a fairly rare combination to have in abundance across the board.

TE - going to struggle with this one a little more... A truly complete TE, one that can block and receive, can generate his own impact. Is it limited by his QB as I argued was the case for WRs? Sure, but the unique, match-up issues he creates, especially out of offensive sets where the run has to honored as well as the pass, elevate his impact.

Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...

Now I'm going to have to think about that one...

TexasAg1969

@tour2ma said:
Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...
Now I'm going to have to think about that one...

LOL! Brady, Brees, and especially Rivers just might agree with you on that.

The Gipper

@texasag1969 said:

LOL! Brady, Brees, and especially Rivers just might agree with you on that.

Maybe also Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar?

calfoxwc

Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...

Now I'm going to have to think about that one... Tour

**********************************************

deep thinking.............heh.....

BaconHound

@flugel said:

QBs slot and it's killed countless franchises.

Do Safeties always get drafted where Eric Turner was? No. The Browns drafted a unique talent.

When you get to the teens of round 1, usually the top/projected franchise QBs are gone. As you know, this year doesn't have a lot of projected franchise QBs. Howard plays a position that scores TDs and does that blocking you you worried about. The video of the Clemson game linked showed a lot of good blocks, good hands - 3 different receptions exceeded 50 yards within the 200 yard receiving night, and 2 TDs in a National Championship victory he X-factored.

And now you're talking about Corey Coleman, who doesn't catch with his hands like Howard does. Why would that be important in traffic? Why would an ideal catch radius on a 6'6" target help in traffic? And if the guy can jet, Safeties have to worry about him instead of helping on Pryor when our 32 year old Barnidge is moving around like he has Roseann Barr riding on his shoulder pads. When you only get 2 TDs from your starting TE in an entire season - the position is hibernating.

The link below is similar to the debate me and you had between Gribble and Zegura discussing McShay's and DJ's mock drafts. The only difference is Gribble isn't a smart ass. I like the points Zegura brought up about him standing out at the Senior Bowl and the week of practices in front of our coaches while you'll undoubtedly like what Gribble is saying.The last time Hue coached a good TE from round 1 (Eifert) - he got 13 TD receptions in 1 season from the position. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792

Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.

Flugel

@baconhound said:

Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.

I'm with you about not wanting Njoku or Engram at #12 overall so we have some degree of common ground.

As we saw in the debate/discussion, Zegura wanted Howard at #12 while Gribble liked McShay's QB idea instead. Both guys presented their points well. Zegura said Howard was the best player at the Senior Bowl, which might have been why Hue decided to limit his exposure to just 1 quarter of action for about 85-90 yards receiving.

To your concern on Howard being under-utilized - I understand that somewhat. This probably won't change your feeling; but I don't think Alabama has ever designed their offense to feature the TE. The year Alabama won the National Championship counting on a 1st year starter at QB (Coker) - it got 200 yards receiving and 2 TDs from Howard during the National Championship victory (vrs the best defense they faced). The next year, they had another 1st year starter at QB (True Freshman) J. Hurtz. When I watched Alabama play the last 2 years - they won with a smothering defense counter balanced by an ideal running game. Neither QB in 2015 and 2016 was a pro style passer so I think a lot of the under utilization you speak of had more to do with the coaching staff's lack of confidence in the Bama QBs throwing over the middle. For example, none of the 3 passes that all went for over 50 yards apiece to Howard vrs Clemson were over the middle. A lot of highlights I see of Howard making big plays and getting YAC are outside interestingly enough.

With Sean Payton drafting at #11 overall, there's a really good chance Howard doesn't even make it to #12. In 2009, Jimmy Graham sported the following under-utilized stats in his senior year at the University of Miami: 13 games 17 rec 213 yards 12.5 ypc 5 TDs. Payton wasn't drafting Graham for a college offense though. He drafted him for his offense where he would line Graham up inside or outside to create mismatches. This helped 7th round draft pick Marques Colston exploit easier matchups as well as undrafted WR Lance Moore. Graham became 10 times the TE he was in college. A lot of NFL TEs have gone on to enjoy much better receiving stats than they had in college.

RoyceRolls

@baconhound said:

TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years

2016 - 0

2015 - 0

2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions

2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals

2012 - 0

2011 - 0

2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals

2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions

2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets

2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.

Fair enough, but here are 2 things to consider...

1. Howard is a beast all around who will help the offense even if the ball doesn't come his way. Seriously, go watch how often an Alabama RB gets to the second level off of one of his blocks.

2. Howard was at the senior bowl and hue got an up close and personal look at him. If the Browns draft him, they will do so having had the opportunity to coach him and see who he is in the locker room.

I've stated my bias before: OJ is a player any team would want, just keep him away from a Ford Bronco.

RoyceRolls

@baconhound said:

Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.

Again, he was like a sixth offensive lineman out there. Kiffin used him as a blocker so often because he was so effective. Alabama always relies on a heavy dose of smash mouth running. Ultimately, I think the fact that Howard was always willing and able to help the team even when he wasn't the target receiver is a plus for who he is as a football player. OJ isn't an ego-centric diva, he's the guy who can kill you with his athleticism as a pass catcher, or put your dick in the dirt with strong blocking. Not saying he will be the best player available, but I'm not going to complain about taking him at 12.

Flugel

@roycerolls said:
Again, he was like a sixth offensive lineman out there. Kiffin used him as a blocker so often because he was so effective. Alabama always relies on a heavy dose of smash mouth running. Ultimately, I think the fact that Howard was always willing and able to help the team even when he wasn't the target receiver is a plus for who he is as a football player. OJ isn't an ego-centric diva, he's the guy who can kill you with his athleticism as a pass catcher, or put your dick in the dirt with strong blocking. Not saying he will be the best player available, but I'm not going to complain about taking him at 12.

I see the same guy you see RR.

IMO, one of the biggest reasons TE prospects don't usually intrigue NFL teams up high in round 1 is because of the amount of deficiencies they have lessening their every down purpose or need. If I just saw another uni-Purpose TE I wouldn't even be thinking of Howard as high as #12. I don't share the sentiment stated in the video that because TE appears to be deep - it's okay to defer that position until later because it routes us away from BPA. The reason I could argue Howard is a BPA especially on the offensive side of the ball is based on how many important assets I can check off.

Can he block? Check.

Can he get open? Check.

Is he a big target with a nice catch radius? Check.

Does he have good hands? Check.

Does he have good speed for YAC? Check.

Have the sum of assets ever made him an X-factor in a Championship Game? Check.

Would his current coach see him as a team first (unselfish) kind of player? Check.

It gets tough to project what will still be available at #12 based on the uncertainty of the QB position. Will 1 or 2 of them be off the board before #12? As much as we hear that teams want to go BPA over needs - supply and demand has often been a large enough influence to the extent we see evidence of a run on various positions detouring the BPA plans over to need. Another thing inviting uncertainty between #1 and #12 is - will 2 different injuries push Hooker down that far? Will rotator cuff surgery with a 4 month rehab move Foster down? Will 1 or both of the top RBs get taken before #12? A lot of draft analysts look like they are expecting an early run on defensive players, which could mean choosing between a 2nd or 3rd best defensive player at 1 position up against a guy Cleveland rates #1 at a play maker position on offense.

Watching it all unfold will be every bit as fascinating as it is exciting. Stay tuned...