Can This Draft Start like our 1978 Draft?
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Here's a link showing the mock drafts from Todd McShay and DJ which is related to this debate:
Here's a link showing the mock drafts from Todd McShay and DJ which is related to this debate:
Again, I have said it over and over, MT will not fall to us at 12. Not with as many as 5 teams in the Top 10 looking for QB.
I would be thrilled if it happens.
But, it won't.
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Maybe decaf... your energy level seems fine.
Beyond the QB position, "impact" on the O-side is much harder for a single player to generate.
Point well taken.
Why is that? The defense is to stop them, but the offense knows what it is going to do,
the defense generally doesn't...reacts..
I'll have to think about that one. How so?
I'll have to think about that one. How so?
I'll take a shot.
OL - while LT and C are key positions, impact is cumulative. There is no other player group where the unit is everything. We saw dramatically in 2015 how one weak position undermined an otherwise very strong unit.
WR - because he's half the equation. While a great #1 can elevate his QB, his impact is QB limited. Add the consideration that one, great WR can always be doubled and dependence upon the WR corps' cumulative proficiency emerges.
RB - the genesis of the game has taken its toll, but the position's impact has always been heavily reliant upon the OL group. That said, the right combination of acceleration, speed, power, agility, balance, hands and field vision behind the right line can be impactful, but that is a fairly rare combination to have in abundance across the board.
TE - going to struggle with this one a little more... A truly complete TE, one that can block and receive, can generate his own impact. Is it limited by his QB as I argued was the case for WRs? Sure, but the unique, match-up issues he creates, especially out of offensive sets where the run has to honored as well as the pass, elevate his impact.
Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...
Now I'm going to have to think about that one...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'll have to think about that one. How so?
I'll take a shot.
OL - while LT and C are key positions, impact is cumulative. There is no other player group where the unit is everything. We saw dramatically in 2015 how one weak position undermined an otherwise very strong unit.
WR - because he's half the equation. While a great #1 can elevate his QB, his impact is QB limited. Add the consideration that one, great WR can always be doubled and dependence upon the WR corps' cumulative proficiency emerges.
RB - the genesis of the game has taken its toll, but the position's impact has always been heavily reliant upon the OL group. That said, the right combination of acceleration, speed, power, agility, balance, hands and field vision behind the right line can be impactful, but that is a fairly rare combination to have in abundance across the board.
TE - going to struggle with this one a little more... A truly complete TE, one that can block and receive, can generate his own impact. Is it limited by his QB as I argued was the case for WRs? Sure, but the unique, match-up issues he creates, especially out of offensive sets where the run has to honored as well as the pass, elevate his impact.
Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...
Now I'm going to have to think about that one...
Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...Now I'm going to have to think about that one...
LOL! Brady, Brees, and especially Rivers just might agree with you on that.
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LOL! Brady, Brees, and especially Rivers just might agree with you on that.
Maybe also Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar?
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Surprisingly I think I just may have argued that TE is second only to QB in impact...
Now I'm going to have to think about that one...
Tour**********************************************
deep thinking.............heh.....
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Not mocking Howard at all. Poked fun at discussing picking a TE #12 when we can't block, catch, throw or defend. If you don't think positions slot in the draft then you don't need to respond.
QBs slot and it's killed countless franchises.
Do Safeties always get drafted where Eric Turner was? No. The Browns drafted a unique talent.
When you get to the teens of round 1, usually the top/projected franchise QBs are gone. As you know, this year doesn't have a lot of projected franchise QBs. Howard plays a position that scores TDs and does that blocking you you worried about. The video of the Clemson game linked showed a lot of good blocks, good hands - 3 different receptions exceeded 50 yards within the 200 yard receiving night, and 2 TDs in a National Championship victory he X-factored.
And now you're talking about Corey Coleman, who doesn't catch with his hands like Howard does. Why would that be important in traffic? Why would an ideal catch radius on a 6'6" target help in traffic? And if the guy can jet, Safeties have to worry about him instead of helping on Pryor when our 32 year old Barnidge is moving around like he has Roseann Barr riding on his shoulder pads. When you only get 2 TDs from your starting TE in an entire season - the position is hibernating.
The link below is similar to the debate me and you had between Gribble and Zegura discussing McShay's and DJ's mock drafts. The only difference is Gribble isn't a smart ass. I like the points Zegura brought up about him standing out at the Senior Bowl and the week of practices in front of our coaches while you'll undoubtedly like what Gribble is saying.The last time Hue coached a good TE from round 1 (Eifert) - he got 13 TD receptions in 1 season from the position. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792
QBs slot and it's killed countless franchises.
Do Safeties always get drafted where Eric Turner was? No. The Browns drafted a unique talent.
When you get to the teens of round 1, usually the top/projected franchise QBs are gone. As you know, this year doesn't have a lot of projected franchise QBs. Howard plays a position that scores TDs and does that blocking you you worried about. The video of the Clemson game linked showed a lot of good blocks, good hands - 3 different receptions exceeded 50 yards within the 200 yard receiving night, and 2 TDs in a National Championship victory he X-factored.
And now you're talking about Corey Coleman, who doesn't catch with his hands like Howard does. Why would that be important in traffic? Why would an ideal catch radius on a 6'6" target help in traffic? And if the guy can jet, Safeties have to worry about him instead of helping on Pryor when our 32 year old Barnidge is moving around like he has Roseann Barr riding on his shoulder pads. When you only get 2 TDs from your starting TE in an entire season - the position is hibernating.
The link below is similar to the debate me and you had between Gribble and Zegura discussing McShay's and DJ's mock drafts. The only difference is Gribble isn't a smart ass. I like the points Zegura brought up about him standing out at the Senior Bowl and the week of practices in front of our coaches while you'll undoubtedly like what Gribble is saying.The last time Hue coached a good TE from round 1 (Eifert) - he got 13 TD receptions in 1 season from the position. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792
Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.
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QBs slot and it's killed countless franchises.
Do Safeties always get drafted where Eric Turner was? No. The Browns drafted a unique talent.
When you get to the teens of round 1, usually the top/projected franchise QBs are gone. As you know, this year doesn't have a lot of projected franchise QBs. Howard plays a position that scores TDs and does that blocking you you worried about. The video of the Clemson game linked showed a lot of good blocks, good hands - 3 different receptions exceeded 50 yards within the 200 yard receiving night, and 2 TDs in a National Championship victory he X-factored.
And now you're talking about Corey Coleman, who doesn't catch with his hands like Howard does. Why would that be important in traffic? Why would an ideal catch radius on a 6'6" target help in traffic? And if the guy can jet, Safeties have to worry about him instead of helping on Pryor when our 32 year old Barnidge is moving around like he has Roseann Barr riding on his shoulder pads. When you only get 2 TDs from your starting TE in an entire season - the position is hibernating.
The link below is similar to the debate me and you had between Gribble and Zegura discussing McShay's and DJ's mock drafts. The only difference is Gribble isn't a smart ass. I like the points Zegura brought up about him standing out at the Senior Bowl and the week of practices in front of our coaches while you'll undoubtedly like what Gribble is saying.The last time Hue coached a good TE from round 1 (Eifert) - he got 13 TD receptions in 1 season from the position. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792
Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.
Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.
I'm with you about not wanting Njoku or Engram at #12 overall so we have some degree of common ground.
As we saw in the debate/discussion, Zegura wanted Howard at #12 while Gribble liked McShay's QB idea instead. Both guys presented their points well. Zegura said Howard was the best player at the Senior Bowl, which might have been why Hue decided to limit his exposure to just 1 quarter of action for about 85-90 yards receiving.
To your concern on Howard being under-utilized - I understand that somewhat. This probably won't change your feeling; but I don't think Alabama has ever designed their offense to feature the TE. The year Alabama won the National Championship counting on a 1st year starter at QB (Coker) - it got 200 yards receiving and 2 TDs from Howard during the National Championship victory (vrs the best defense they faced). The next year, they had another 1st year starter at QB (True Freshman) J. Hurtz. When I watched Alabama play the last 2 years - they won with a smothering defense counter balanced by an ideal running game. Neither QB in 2015 and 2016 was a pro style passer so I think a lot of the under utilization you speak of had more to do with the coaching staff's lack of confidence in the Bama QBs throwing over the middle. For example, none of the 3 passes that all went for over 50 yards apiece to Howard vrs Clemson were over the middle. A lot of highlights I see of Howard making big plays and getting YAC are outside interestingly enough.
With Sean Payton drafting at #11 overall, there's a really good chance Howard doesn't even make it to #12. In 2009, Jimmy Graham sported the following under-utilized stats in his senior year at the University of Miami: 13 games 17 rec 213 yards 12.5 ypc 5 TDs. Payton wasn't drafting Graham for a college offense though. He drafted him for his offense where he would line Graham up inside or outside to create mismatches. This helped 7th round draft pick Marques Colston exploit easier matchups as well as undrafted WR Lance Moore. Graham became 10 times the TE he was in college. A lot of NFL TEs have gone on to enjoy much better receiving stats than they had in college.
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TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years
2016 - 0
2015 - 0
2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions
2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals
2012 - 0
2011 - 0
2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals
2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions
2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets
2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.
TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years
2016 - 0
2015 - 0
2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions
2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals
2012 - 0
2011 - 0
2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals
2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions
2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets
2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears
Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.
Fair enough, but here are 2 things to consider...
1. Howard is a beast all around who will help the offense even if the ball doesn't come his way. Seriously, go watch how often an Alabama RB gets to the second level off of one of his blocks.
2. Howard was at the senior bowl and hue got an up close and personal look at him. If the Browns draft him, they will do so having had the opportunity to coach him and see who he is in the locker room.
I've stated my bias before: OJ is a player any team would want, just keep him away from a Ford Bronco.
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QBs slot and it's killed countless franchises.
Do Safeties always get drafted where Eric Turner was? No. The Browns drafted a unique talent.
When you get to the teens of round 1, usually the top/projected franchise QBs are gone. As you know, this year doesn't have a lot of projected franchise QBs. Howard plays a position that scores TDs and does that blocking you you worried about. The video of the Clemson game linked showed a lot of good blocks, good hands - 3 different receptions exceeded 50 yards within the 200 yard receiving night, and 2 TDs in a National Championship victory he X-factored.
And now you're talking about Corey Coleman, who doesn't catch with his hands like Howard does. Why would that be important in traffic? Why would an ideal catch radius on a 6'6" target help in traffic? And if the guy can jet, Safeties have to worry about him instead of helping on Pryor when our 32 year old Barnidge is moving around like he has Roseann Barr riding on his shoulder pads. When you only get 2 TDs from your starting TE in an entire season - the position is hibernating.
The link below is similar to the debate me and you had between Gribble and Zegura discussing McShay's and DJ's mock drafts. The only difference is Gribble isn't a smart ass. I like the points Zegura brought up about him standing out at the Senior Bowl and the week of practices in front of our coaches while you'll undoubtedly like what Gribble is saying.The last time Hue coached a good TE from round 1 (Eifert) - he got 13 TD receptions in 1 season from the position. http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Gribble--Zegura-review-national-mock-drafts/76d60a15-f220-49c5-929d-106abbb5b792
Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.
Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.
Again, he was like a sixth offensive lineman out there. Kiffin used him as a blocker so often because he was so effective. Alabama always relies on a heavy dose of smash mouth running. Ultimately, I think the fact that Howard was always willing and able to help the team even when he wasn't the target receiver is a plus for who he is as a football player. OJ isn't an ego-centric diva, he's the guy who can kill you with his athleticism as a pass catcher, or put your dick in the dirt with strong blocking. Not saying he will be the best player available, but I'm not going to complain about taking him at 12.
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Watched the video past the Howard discussion. We can agree to disagree on this one. I don't believe you take a TE #12 if you are the Browns. If they do I wouldn't stop being a fan, just don't think Howard, Njoku or Engram are the can't miss Gronkowksi type TE. I also get nervous as it pertains to Howard that the term "under-utilized" gets thrown around a lot. While I think offensive philosophies differ from place to place I'm not sure I subscribe to Nick Saban having an unstoppable force that he chooses not to use. If he truly is the next coming of Greg Olsen and Saban decided not to use him, there had to be some rationale behind it. The other really good players Saban has had were all utilized in his offense.
Again, he was like a sixth offensive lineman out there. Kiffin used him as a blocker so often because he was so effective. Alabama always relies on a heavy dose of smash mouth running. Ultimately, I think the fact that Howard was always willing and able to help the team even when he wasn't the target receiver is a plus for who he is as a football player. OJ isn't an ego-centric diva, he's the guy who can kill you with his athleticism as a pass catcher, or put your dick in the dirt with strong blocking. Not saying he will be the best player available, but I'm not going to complain about taking him at 12.
Again, he was like a sixth offensive lineman out there. Kiffin used him as a blocker so often because he was so effective. Alabama always relies on a heavy dose of smash mouth running. Ultimately, I think the fact that Howard was always willing and able to help the team even when he wasn't the target receiver is a plus for who he is as a football player. OJ isn't an ego-centric diva, he's the guy who can kill you with his athleticism as a pass catcher, or put your dick in the dirt with strong blocking. Not saying he will be the best player available, but I'm not going to complain about taking him at 12.
I see the same guy you see RR.
IMO, one of the biggest reasons TE prospects don't usually intrigue NFL teams up high in round 1 is because of the amount of deficiencies they have lessening their every down purpose or need. If I just saw another uni-Purpose TE I wouldn't even be thinking of Howard as high as #12. I don't share the sentiment stated in the video that because TE appears to be deep - it's okay to defer that position until later because it routes us away from BPA. The reason I could argue Howard is a BPA especially on the offensive side of the ball is based on how many important assets I can check off.
Can he block? Check.
Can he get open? Check.
Is he a big target with a nice catch radius? Check.
Does he have good hands? Check.
Does he have good speed for YAC? Check.
Have the sum of assets ever made him an X-factor in a Championship Game? Check.
Would his current coach see him as a team first (unselfish) kind of player? Check.
It gets tough to project what will still be available at #12 based on the uncertainty of the QB position. Will 1 or 2 of them be off the board before #12? As much as we hear that teams want to go BPA over needs - supply and demand has often been a large enough influence to the extent we see evidence of a run on various positions detouring the BPA plans over to need. Another thing inviting uncertainty between #1 and #12 is - will 2 different injuries push Hooker down that far? Will rotator cuff surgery with a 4 month rehab move Foster down? Will 1 or both of the top RBs get taken before #12? A lot of draft analysts look like they are expecting an early run on defensive players, which could mean choosing between a 2nd or 3rd best defensive player at 1 position up against a guy Cleveland rates #1 at a play maker position on offense.
Watching it all unfold will be every bit as fascinating as it is exciting. Stay tuned...
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