Browns All Time Team
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Going off my latest Trivia Quiz, I thought I would put together my version of this: The Browns All time Team.
I am going to go 2 deep on each position. Some of my choices may be controversial.
QB: Otto Graham, Frank Ryan
RB: Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell
FB: Jim Brown, Marion Motley
WRs: Paul Warfield, Dante Lavelli, Gary Collins, Mack Speedie
TE: Ozzie Newsome, Milt Morin
OT: Dick Shafrath, Joe Thomas, Mike MacCormack, Doug Dieken
OG: Gene Hickerson, John Wooten, Joe Dellameleure, Robert Jackson
OC: Frank Gatski, Tom DeLeone
K: Lou Groza, Phil Dawson
DE: Len Ford, Paul Wiggin, Bill Glass, Orpheus Roye
DT: Walter Johnson, Michael Dean Perry, Jerry Sherk, Bob Gain
NT: Bill Willis, Bob Golic
OLB: Clay Matthews, Jim Houston, Chip Banks, Galen Fiss
MLB: Mike Johnson, Vince Costello, Dick Ambrose, Eddie Johnson
CB: Hanford Dixon, Clarence Scott, Frank Minnifield, Bernie Parrish
S: Thom Darden, Ross Fichtner, Eric Turner, Walt Sumner
P: Don Cockroft, Chris Gardocki
PR/KR: Eric Metcalf, Josh Cribbs
LS: Ryan Pontbriand
Would you replace anyone?
I would make some changes, will look closer at another time, but the ones that my my eyes bleed are Orpheus Roye over Rob Burnett and Anthony Pleasant and Cockroft over Dawson.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I would make some changes, will look closer at another time, but the ones that my my eyes bleed are Orpheus Roye over Rob Burnett and Anthony Pleasant and Cockroft over Dawson.
Zombo
Burnett and Pleasant spent half their days with other teams. Roye actually grades out as more productive....for the Browns than the other two (perhaps not overall careers). Just goes to show that the team has not been that strong at the position over the years.
I gave Cockroft the #1 punter position...that is why I didn't give him the K spot. Same with Groza. He really made the HOF as a combo K/LT. So I gave him the K spot and gave the others named the OT nods.
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Oh I put up a reply but it must have not clicked through on Kosar and Sipe and their or their teams not making a super bowl or NFL CHAMPIONSHIP game. Either might be a candidate for #2 both were warriors.
Often QBs reputations and accolades rise or fall on the talent around them....and rings.
Surely this is true. Take the difference between Sipe and Kosar. Their numbers and their winning pct. with the Browns is nearly identical....but think about it: Brian Sipe played in one single playoff game for the Browns...and lost.
Kosar on the other hand played in a number of playoff games....and won a few...making it to the conf. title game 3 times.
Sipe never came close. Was Kosar a better QB than Sipe because of it? Or, was the team around BK better than the team around Sipe?
And then you throw Ryan into the mix. Played in 2 NFL title games...plus a couple of other playoff games later. Won it all in 1964. Lost in 1965. Won one and lost another later.
Remember too on comparing pure stats over the decades did they play 12, 14 or 16 games? (Try extrapolating Jim Browns' numbers out over 16 games, he led the league in rushing 8 of 9 seasons with that then unreal 5.0 ypc in the stop the run era.)Surely this is true. Take the difference between Sipe and Kosar. Their numbers and their winning pct. with the Browns is nearly identical....but think about it: Brian Sipe played in one single playoff game for the Browns...and lost.
Kosar on the other hand played in a number of playoff games....and won a few...making it to the conf. title game 3 times.
Sipe never came close. Was Kosar a better QB than Sipe because of it? Or, was the team around BK better than the team around Sipe?
And then you throw Ryan into the mix. Played in 2 NFL title games...plus a couple of other playoff games later. Won it all in 1964. Lost in 1965. Won one and lost another later.
How many postseason playoff games were there? Wild cards? How many teams?
NFL rules! No I mean the rule book when comparing 1957 and 1989 it has it's own built in biases.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Zombo said:
I would make some changes, will look closer at another time, but the ones that my my eyes bleed are Orpheus Roye over Rob Burnett and Anthony Pleasant and Cockroft over Dawson.
Zombo
Burnett and Pleasant spent half their days with other teams. Roye actually grades out as more productive....for the Browns than the other two (perhaps not overall careers). Just goes to show that the team has not been that strong at the position over the years.
I gave Cockroft the #1 punter position...that is why I didn't give him the K spot. Same with Groza. He really made the HOF as a combo K/LT. So I gave him the K spot and gave the others named the OT nods.
Burnett and Pleasant spent half their days with other teams. Roye actually grades out as more productive....for the Browns than the other two (perhaps not overall careers). Just goes to show that the team has not been that strong at the position over the years.
I gave Cockroft the #1 punter position...that is why I didn't give him the K spot. Same with Groza. He really made the HOF as a combo K/LT. So I gave him the K spot and gave the others named the OT nods.
Orpheous Roye was a Steeler, so I could never really get on board there. Reminded me of when the Tribe had Jack Morris, I hated it.
Karlis Missed -
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@ghoolie said:
Milt Plum was by far, by far a better QB than Frank Ryan.
In Fact, he was the most accurate passer the Browns ever had, including Otto. I would be very surprised if any Cleveland Browns QB with say 600 - 700 passes had a better passer rating than Milt.
Milt was, as I recall a utility player at Penn State, he kicked well and played DB. We was a very talented athlete and again, at the pain of repetition, known for his uncanny accuracy. I also believe he was drafted in the 2nd round behind the great player and rapist Jim Brown.
Ryan was a great guy, but not a great QB. I would put Sipe ahead of Ryan. Kosar was not far behind. After Otto, it's Plum, hands down.
I don't know. Ryan won a title.....plus FYI....Frank Ryan has the third highest TD to attempt ratio in NFL history....and the best since 1950. The 2 guys above him played in like the 1930s/early 40s.
I mean....they let Plum go...and brought Ryan in.....and won a title.
Kind of hard to argue with that.
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Remember too on comparing pure stats over the decades did they play 12, 14 or 16 games? (Try extrapolating Jim Browns' numbers out over 16 games, he led the league in rushing 8 of 9 seasons with that then unreal 5.0 ypc in the stop the run era.)Surely this is true. Take the difference between Sipe and Kosar. Their numbers and their winning pct. with the Browns is nearly identical....but think about it: Brian Sipe played in one single playoff game for the Browns...and lost.
Kosar on the other hand played in a number of playoff games....and won a few...making it to the conf. title game 3 times.
Sipe never came close. Was Kosar a better QB than Sipe because of it? Or, was the team around BK better than the team around Sipe?
And then you throw Ryan into the mix. Played in 2 NFL title games...plus a couple of other playoff games later. Won it all in 1964. Lost in 1965. Won one and lost another later.
How many postseason playoff games were there? Wild cards? How many teams?
NFL rules! No I mean the rule book when comparing 1957 and 1989 it has it's own built in biases.
Remember too on comparing pure stats over the decades did they play 12, 14 or 16 games? (Try extrapolating Jim Browns' numbers out over 16 games, he led the league in rushing 8 of 9 seasons with that then unreal 5.0 ypc in the stop the run era.)
How many postseason playoff games were there? Wild cards? How many teams?
NFL rules! No I mean the rule book when comparing 1957 and 1989 it has it's own built in biases.
If we are just comparing Sipe and Kosar....they both played pretty much under the same rules/playoff system. Same number of playoff games/teams. Its not like with OG or Ryan....in whose era one single postseason game was played for the most part.
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Burnett and Pleasant spent half their days with other teams. Roye actually grades out as more productive....for the Browns than the other two (perhaps not overall careers). Just goes to show that the team has not been that strong at the position over the years.
I gave Cockroft the #1 punter position...that is why I didn't give him the K spot. Same with Groza. He really made the HOF as a combo K/LT. So I gave him the K spot and gave the others named the OT nods.
Orpheous Roye was a Steeler, so I could never really get on board there. Reminded me of when the Tribe had Jack Morris, I hated it.
Orpheous Roye was a Steeler, so I could never really get on board there. Reminded me of when the Tribe had Jack Morris, I hated it.
I am willing to back off on Roye. It was the one choice that I made with the least confidence.
I am just not that high on the choices of Pleasant and Burnett for that last DE spot.
Any other candidates?
Or future candidates? Ogbah/Nassib...or whomever we get in this draft?
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@ghoolie said:
Milt Plum was by far, by far a better QB than Frank Ryan.
In Fact, he was the most accurate passer the Browns ever had, including Otto. I would be very surprised if any Cleveland Browns QB with say 600 - 700 passes had a better passer rating than Milt.
Milt was, as I recall a utility player at Penn State, he kicked well and played DB. We was a very talented athlete and again, at the pain of repetition, known for his uncanny accuracy. I also believe he was drafted in the 2nd round behind the great player and rapist Jim Brown.
Ryan was a great guy, but not a great QB. I would put Sipe ahead of Ryan. Kosar was not far behind. After Otto, it's Plum, hands down.
I don't know. Ryan won a title.....plus FYI....Frank Ryan has the third highest TD to attempt ratio in NFL history....and the best since 1950. The 2 guys above him played in like the 1930s/early 40s.
I mean....they let Plum go...and brought Ryan in.....and won a title.
Kind of hard to argue with that.
Another thing why were Cleveland QBs and WRs so good at the TD/Att and long TD passes, etc. during the Jim Brown era? Simple the defences had to crowd the line of scrimmage to try to stop him which left the receivers wide open quite often.I don't know. Ryan won a title.....plus FYI....Frank Ryan has the third highest TD to attempt ratio in NFL history....and the best since 1950. The 2 guys above him played in like the 1930s/early 40s.
I mean....they let Plum go...and brought Ryan in.....and won a title.
Kind of hard to argue with that.
Remember guys like Gary Collins?
Oh on Gary Collins TRUE STORY back in the 1960s around 1965 the Gulf gas company had a promotion when you got gas you got game pieces to collect and try to win prizes. Well the grand prize was a brand new FORD MUSTANG CONVERTIBLE but to win you needed all on a game card (like McDonald's now).
Well the hard to get one was the Gary Collins piece a guy my dad worked with back then got it but didn't really realize what he had and someone there threw it in the trash. Well he found out and they went nuts looking in the house, trash, everywhere.
But sadly Gary Collins was long gone as was that brand new sporty 1965 Mustang.
Do any of you guys remember Gulf gas? They had the two horseshoes in their ads and on these game pieces, I sure do.
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Yup... Used to fill up at "the Gulf station" at the corner of Pearl and Ackley.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
HB - I'd drop Bobby Mitchell in favor of Greg Pruitt. Bobby was a far better WR than he was RB.
CB - List has to include Warren Lahr... only question is whether he is #1 or #2 at that position.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
QB: Otto Graham, Frank Ryan
RB: Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell
FB: Jim Brown, Marion Motley
WRs: Paul Warfield, Dante Lavelli, Gary Collins, Mack Speedie
TE: Ozzie Newsome, Milt Morin
OT: Mike MacCormack Joe Thomas, Dick Shafrath,, , Doug Dieken..
OG: Gene Hickerson, John Wooten, Joe Dellameleure, Robert Jackson
OC: Frank Gatski, Mike Babb
K: Lou Groza, Phil Dawson
DE: Len Ford, Paul Wiggin, Jack Gregory, Turkey Jones
DT: Jerry Sherk Walter Johnson, Michael Dean Perry, , Bob Gain
NT: Bill Willis, Bob Golic
OLB: Clay Matthews, Jim Houston, Chip Banks, Galen Fiss
MLB: Mike Johnson,Dick Ambrose, Vince Costello, , Eddie Johnson
CB: Hanford Dixon, Clarence Scott, Frank Minnifield, Bernie Parrish
S: Thom Darden, Eric Turner,Ross Fichtner, Walt Sumner
P: Don Cockroft, Chris Gardocki
PR/KR: Josh Cribbs, Eric Metcalf,
LS: Ryan Pontbriand
Would you replace anyone?
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@ghoolie said:
Milt Plum was by far, by far a better QB than Frank Ryan.
In Fact, he was the most accurate passer the Browns ever had, including Otto. I would be very surprised if any Cleveland Browns QB with say 600 - 700 passes had a better passer rating than Milt.
Milt was, as I recall a utility player at Penn State, he kicked well and played DB. We was a very talented athlete and again, at the pain of repetition, known for his uncanny accuracy. I also believe he was drafted in the 2nd round behind the great player and rapist Jim Brown.
Ryan was a great guy, but not a great QB. I would put Sipe ahead of Ryan. Kosar was not far behind. After Otto, it's Plum, hands down.
I don't know. Ryan won a title.....plus FYI....Frank Ryan has the third highest TD to attempt ratio in NFL history....and the best since 1950. The 2 guys above him played in like the 1930s/early 40s.
I mean....they let Plum go...and brought Ryan in.....and won a title.
Kind of hard to argue with that.
I don't know. Ryan won a title.....
That's like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino when he was the beneficiary of a great defense and a RB that rushed for over 2000 yards (500 of those yards in just 6 quarters vrs Cleveland).
All that said, nice job with the list and discussion piece here Gips.
FWIW, Paul Brown called Mike MacCormack the best offensive lineman he ever coached (which shocked me considering how long Groza was a standard of excellence for him)
I LOVED Mike Johnson in the middle and the flexibility of Clay Matthews to play any LBer position in either front (43 or 34).
Good job remembering Mike Babb.
Here's some of my faves that didn't make your list at positions we had a great tradition with:
Greg Pruitt
Kevin Mack
Mike Pruitt
Earnest Byner
OT:
Tony T-Bone Jones (undrafted and underrated)
Cody Risien (2 Pro Bowls)
Replacement: I think Zombo had a good point about putting Rob Burnett ahead of Orpheus Roye.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
And I put Jack Gregory ahead of both.
He is unofficially credited with 103 quarterback sacks for his career (38 with the Browns and 65 with the Giants).[1] The Browns credit him with 14 sacks for the 1970 NFL season, the second-best total in team history.[2]
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
I've been thinking about TEs and while Ozzie is the clear #1, I think a case can be made for KW, Jr. as our #2.
KW is co-holder of our single-season reception record (89) with Ozzie. His 1106 receiving yards in 2007 is the 6th best in our history and the highest total for any TE.
The kid was a physical freak... unfortunately he was a mental one as well... and owned a motorcycle...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I've been thinking about TEs and while Ozzie is the clear #1, I think a case can be made for KW, Jr. as our #2.
KW is co-holder of our single-season reception record (89) with Ozzie. His 1106 receiving yards in 2007 is the 6th best in our history and the highest total for any TE.
The kid was a physical freak... unfortunately he was a mental one as well... and owned a motorcycle...
I've been thinking about TEs and while Ozzie is the clear #1, I think a case can be made for KW, Jr. as our #2.
KW is co-holder of our single-season reception record (89) with Ozzie. His 1106 receiving yards in 2007 is the 6th best in our history and the highest total for any TE.
The kid was a physical freak... unfortunately he was a mental one as well... and owned a motorcycle...
I thought he would have been a perennial pro bowler....until he tried playing Evil Kneivel.
What a waste of talent and a 1st round draft pick.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
I don't know. Ryan won a title.....
That's like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino when he was the beneficiary of a great defense and a RB that rushed for over 2000 yards (500 of those yards in just 6 quarters vrs Cleveland).
All that said, nice job with the list and discussion piece here Gips.
FWIW, Paul Brown called Mike MacCormack the best offensive lineman he ever coached (which shocked me considering how long Groza was a standard of excellence for him)
I LOVED Mike Johnson in the middle and the flexibility of Clay Matthews to play any LBer position in either front (43 or 34).
Good job remembering Mike Babb.
Here's some of my faves that didn't make your list at positions we had a great tradition with:
Greg Pruitt
Kevin Mack
Mike Pruitt
Earnest Byner
OT:
Tony T-Bone Jones (undrafted and underrated)
Cody Risien (2 Pro Bowls)
Replacement: I think Zombo had a good point about putting Rob Burnett ahead of Orpheus Roye.
Replacement: I think Zombo had a good point about putting Rob Burnett ahead of Orpheus Roye.
Yep....agree with you and Z on this one....all the way.....
Rob may have only been here til "95....but then, the same can be said for the whole team.....
Id go out on a limb and say he was one of our best 5th round picks ever......along with Baab.....
....and both would be on my all time team....
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I've been thinking about TEs and while Ozzie is the clear #1, I think a case can be made for KW, Jr. as our #2.
KW is co-holder of our single-season reception record (89) with Ozzie. His 1106 receiving yards in 2007 is the 6th best in our history and the highest total for any TE.
The kid was a physical freak... unfortunately he was a mental one as well... and owned a motorcycle...
I thought he would have been a perennial pro bowler....until he tried playing Evil Kneivel.
What a waste of talent and a 1st round draft pick.
I thought he would have been a perennial pro bowler....until he tried playing Evil Kneivel.
What a waste of talent and a 1st round draft pick.
The year we traded up (losing a 3rd or 4th rd pick) to draft him, we could have stayed put and drafted another guy who didn't know how to ride a motorcycle - Ben Roethlisberger. I posted something stupid after learning he would survive like it looks like Ben Riden will be wearing a bigger turban than Bin Laden today. Then I added there's just something special about Pittsburgh QBs bouncing off of hard surfaces. This ended up in the Pittsburgh Gazette about the extent of hatred in the rivalry from the message board we used to have prior to this.
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Yup... Used to fill up at "the Gulf station" at the corner of Pearl and Ackley.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
HB - I'd drop Bobby Mitchell in favor of Greg Pruitt. Bobby was a far better WR than he was RB.
CB - List has to include Warren Lahr... only question is whether he is #1 or #2 at that position.
Yup... Used to fill up at "the Gulf station" at the corner of Pearl and Ackley.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
HB - I'd drop Bobby Mitchell in favor of Greg Pruitt. Bobby was a far better WR than he was RB.
CB - List has to include Warren Lahr... only question is whether he is #1 or #2 at that position.
Both fair points. on Pruitt, Lahr. I originally had Pruitt...but then realized that Bobby Mitchell is a HOF player...and that while with the Browns he did play HB.....moving between runner and receiver...ergo the choice of Mitchell.
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@ghoolie said:
A title does not make a QB. I liked the good Doctor, but again, Plum has the highest passer rating of any Browns QB living or dead.
A title may not make a QB...but it does not hurt. During Plum's tenure here the Browns never made the playoffs (yes...only 1 team per conf. did that. With Ryan they made playoffs 3-4 times. Plus, as I noted, his TDs were much better.
As for passer rating...I have always thought that was a bit of a bogus stat. Jeff Garcia has a better passer rating than both Ryan and Plum....should we consider him for Browns all time team? Clearly not.
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And I put Jack Gregory ahead of both.
He is unofficially credited with 103 quarterback sacks for his career (38 with the Browns and 65 with the Giants).[1] The Browns credit him with 14 sacks for the 1970 NFL season, the second-best total in team history.[2]
And I put Jack Gregory ahead of both.
He is unofficially credited with 103 quarterback sacks for his career (38 with the Browns and 65 with the Giants).[1] The Browns credit him with 14 sacks for the 1970 NFL season, the second-best total in team history.[2]
I think that is probably a good choice. Better than Roye and Burnett overall. Again, perhaps the thing that caused me to exclude him originally is the fact that he played more of his career with the Giants. Though...I see that like Warfield, he came back to the Browns after being away. So he was with the Browns a good 6 years, which could/should get him the nod.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GregJa00.htm
Burnett played with the Browns also 6 years. (of course...he went to Balt. with "the move"......and played a total of 12 years between the Browns and Ravens...but I only count Browns years)
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