The Trenches Are the Cleveland Browns' Strengths Heading into 2009
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I like tucker over Womack at least until he gets hurt by the 3rd game or so..Steinbach is going to become a liability he is undersized and was starting to really get punked bad by mid season...playoff caliber o line? not quite yet..
Our dline depends on rather williams fully adjusts to being a 3-4 DE if he does our d-line will be rock solid...how well rubin handles rotating in for rogers will be crucial as well since these are the only 2 legit NTs...playoff caliber? hahahaha! decent and likely productive but not playoff caliber just yet..
Both lines will be solid for once but both have potential problem spots that opponents will exploit if possible...but im sure mangini has a plan to deal with it if it happens...
Im hopeful we can get to post season but it really depends on the entire club actually working together in order to achieve it...impossible for the browns to make the playoffs?
Absolutely not!
Steinbach is going to become a liability he is undersized and was starting to really get punked bad by mid season...playoff caliber o line? not quite yet..
ES played all of last season with a torn pectoral muscle, and as far as him being undersized I don't see it affecting his play as much as you considering last season he had to bail out Fraley the whole time, add in he was injured and yes, it made him look like shit.
So he's coming back healthy and has a center next to him that doesn't need his help blocking one of those big AFC North NTs, but those together and I think he's going to excel this season because it's going to give him the freedom to pull and lead block again which we sorely missed last season.
For the record, I did say first BEFORE we signed him he was slightly undersized and was an overachiever, which is a bad recipe for performance when playing while injured but everyone told me I was crazy.
For the record I was the first to point out Shaffer was not a good signing as a left tackle because when he played in Atlanta he may have played left, but didn't play blindside since they were using a left handed qb at the time and his play would suffer on the left here and again, was called crazy.
I'm to offensive line to what Shep is to qbs, a real student of the trenches.
So, for the record right now, so we can look back at it, I'm letting everyone know Tucker is a liability and we truly need a guard on the right side before we can really consider this line our strength. St Clair will be serviceable as a RT (about the same as Shaffer) but lacks the side to side movement to deal with outside speed rushers, it's the same weakness Tucker started showing 3 seasons ago before we had to move him inside for him to remain productive (when healthy enough to play).
So bash me all you want and call me crazy, but unless our new OC is willing to add a TE to help St Clair when we face a fast outside rush (and hopefully a back that can give a good hit to a surprise rusher St Clair is going to miss to give Quinn, or WHOEVER our starting qb may be that extra second) that right side is going to look really bad, really fast.
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Tobalaz...you're crazy!!
Just kidding...you have a THING about people calling you crazy. Your logic seems sound to me. I don't know your previous predicitons. I do agree that the NEXT DRAFT needs to address the RIGHT SIDE OF THE LINE (probably RT)
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I like Tucker to win the RT tackle spot with St. Claire as the backup.. I believe we will be stronger with that lineup. maybe I just like tucker a little more. Better guy starts and we will be decent on the left side if they can protect the QB. The run game should be better with Mack. I am tired of having the guards have to help the center(Fraley) so much. Mack was drafted for the purpose of handling the likes of Casey Hampton , Ngata, and Tank Johnson. He is a big boy and that is EXACTLY the reason he was brought in to negate those big boys in the middle of the division teams DL. I am also tired of watching the pocket collapse up the middle. That should end with Mack in there.
DL is still a big question mark to me. It looks better on paper.. But we thought we had this fixed last year too, and we sucked. So I will wait and see.
I have confidence in the OL but DL?? not so sure.
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@inspecta said:
The offensive line more than any other group on a football team has to play as one cohesive unit. They have to have one mind and one purpose and act accordingly. If one guy on the offensive line isn't playing 100% or isn't on the same page it can make everybody look terrible.Over-rated.
Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
Regards
..... an'at
.
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@inspecta said:
The offensive line more than any other group on a football team has to play as one cohesive unit. They have to have one mind and one purpose and act accordingly. If one guy on the offensive line isn't playing 100% or isn't on the same page it can make everybody look terrible.Over-rated.
Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
Regards
..... an'at
.
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@inspecta said:
The offensive line more than any other group on a football team has to play as one cohesive unit. They have to have one mind and one purpose and act accordingly. If one guy on the offensive line isn't playing 100% or isn't on the same page it can make everybody look terrible.Over-rated.
Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
Regards
..... an'at
.
Steeler SChuck said:
Over-rated.Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
Regards
..... an'at
.
I tend to disagree.
You had EXCELLENT runblockers on the line, it's just their pass protection was suspect.
However, Ben holding on to the ball as long as he does at times made their pass blocking look worse than it really was.
Another thing is both Big Gay Ben and Byron Leftwich have a slower wind up on their passes, once the tackles started carrying back their blocks an extra 3 feet they looked much better giving their qbs an extra second and a half.
I do agree with everyone else however, cohesion of the unit and the ability to work together as one is just as if not more important than the talent that encompasses it.
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Exactly. Pittifullburg had the #1 defense,
and often gave Rothlicksbooger enough time to stand
back there and throw to Hines Ward...
who always gets open and always catches the ball
and always laughs like an idiot. I hate him. GGG
Derrick Anderson with a fractured throwing hand could have
"led" the Steelers to the superbowl last year.
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@shepwrite said:
As a right tackle, I think St. Clair goes up into the top third. Left tackle, not so much. I think he'll be a nice upgrade over Shaffer at that position.Just as we probably shouldn't have relied on a guy whose nickname is "the Human Hamstring Pull" to give us 16 games last year, I don't think a guy nicknamed "the Human Turnstile" is going to be a great all around right tackle for us.
But that doesn't mean it was a bad move to replace Shaffer with St. Clair, just a different approach to the position.
Particularly in the AFC North, one can argue that it's best to have two bookend tackles who are great pass protectors, thereby limiting the hurt Suggs, Woodley, and Harrison can put on your QB. That, I think, was part of the reasoning behind drafting Thomas and moving Shaffer to right tackle. If you can get good pass pro from both tackles, it really opens up the passing game, as we saw in '07.
On the other hand, one could argue that with the tough, physical defenses in our divison, you want a punch 'em in the mouth right tackle who can be a road grader on the right side. That way, you'll face less 3rd and longs, which is when those great pass rushers really pin their ears back and get after the QB.
These two approaches aren't mutually exclusive. Ideally, you want a guy who's got left tackle feet and mauls like a right guard. And I'm with ballpeen here: our scouts better be looking for a good RT prospect in next year's draft.
But you can't always have the perfect solution. And when Mangini can't, he clearly prefers having that road grader over having a bookend pass blocker. Just look at what he did last year: he signed a career interior lineman with only a few games' experience at tackle to play RT. I doubt he was expecting Damien Woody to be a great pass blocker; he probably figured he could give him enough help that pass blocking wouldn't be an issue, leaving him with a guy who'd open up holes on the right side. Considering that D'Brickashaw Ferguson is a poor run blocker, putting a mauler at RT made even more sense.
I'm guessing that the Browns' coaching staff is planning to do the same with St. Clair. If they leave the guy on an island, LaMarr Woodley is going to run right by him. But if you give him enough help, you can at least partly compensate for his slow feet.
With that in mind, it'd be nice to have a running back who's good at picking up blitzers and/or guys St. Clair occasionally whiffs on. Not sure we have one of those: IIRC, Noah Herron's good at it, but he's a roster bubble guy who probably won't be active on Sundays.
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It would be nice to maybe keep this thread as our offensive line discussion for awhile, there are all kinds of different threads with oline observations in them. Good post Dan, but who in the hell wrote that article? It looked like it was written by a high school kid for junior high kids, plus it had a few typos such as "lead". Are we back in Rome with my theory that Lead Poisoning and Inbreeding ultimately doomed the Romans? (Ironically, this same evolution is currently going on in our beloved Pittsburgh, PA) Anyway, enough of the digression shit, here's my two sense?
The decision to oust Shaffer was no doubt directly related to money, and I even predicted he'd be let go after Mancock was hired. Let's not pretend Shaffer sucked that bad here, it wasn't that. As a matter of fact, in '07 he actually graded out the best on the line according to old line coach Steve Marshall. Ii still don't know what to think about Marshall though, because he also called Tucker the team's best lineman when in fact Joe Thomas had one of the best year's in Cleveland Browns history at LT. He also may have had the best year ever for a rookie LT, better than Pace, Walter Jones----maybe even Munoz. Sure, Marshall was probably not willing to give the rookie too many kudos over a hardened vet like Tuck, but the point of all this is Shaffer performed at a pretty high level in '07.
Having Tucker next to him was huge for Shaffer, no doubt, but so was DA getting rid of the ball quickly. It's the good and the bad of Dexter----yeah, he gets rid of the ball quick as hell, but he also fails to go through his progressions by doing so or keeping a drive alive with pocket presence. Back to Shaffer----he is not that bad of a lineman and somewhat versatile, the fact remains that Phillip desperately overpaid for the guy. Kevvy Shafe reaped the benefits of a crappy FA class at LT the year he was signed in Savage's quest to strengthen the oline.
I think the Browns plan is twofold and very contingent on Tucker playing twelve to 16 games at RG. As stated before, when healthy Tucker is a Pro Bowl type RG, whereas at RT he was losing to speed rushers 3 to 4 years ago. Simply put, Tucker is a difference maker at RG but an also ran at RT. I don't think there is a lot to dispute regarding this.
The drafting of Mack helps bring some toughness and size to the interior line while maintaining Fraley's cerebral approach. Let's say he starts over Fraley for now and the guard thing is an aberration. Here is your starting line when camp starts:
LT Thomas
LG Steinbach
C Mack
RG Tucker
RT Pencil in St. Claire
My guess is Mangie will push guys hard to win a starting job at RT. It will be one of the best battles of camp, and if nobody is competent there they do have other options. Those would include Tucker going to RT and Hadnot at RG, or Tucker at RT and Mack sliding over to RG with Fraley back at center. I think the Hadnot theory is more plausible because it gives the team the strength in the running game and physicality. It's also possible that Hadnot could be a camp casualty based on his contract and the fact they may want to go younger, but I'm not sure of Hadnot's cap implications.
As Alo said, let's not blindly assume the Human Turnstile is going to become a great pass blocker all of a sudden, especially in our division where coaches will attack the weakpoint of the line like Hyenas attack a lone and wounded lion. The issue with this is he will need help, but how much? Our best blocking back is now in Arizona and the three top backs on the roster (I'm not including Herron here) are marginal at best at chipping and picking up the blitz. Lewis is not a good pass blocker, and we all know Harrison's inability is what supposedly had RAC 'n ROLLS keeping him from averaging 6 yards a carry. Davis has never done it and according to Alo sucked at the Senior Bowl and looked lost.
The other theory is to have the TE's help, but why the hell would we want to take that weapon out of the offense? I still hear Heiden's name thrown around like a shoe in when in fact he's not guaranteed to be back from his major off season knee reconstruction. Rucker is strictly a receiving threat in the mold of Winslow and more of a slot type, while Royal can help adequately but still won't be in the route.
The positives of St. Claire starting at RT is (if Tucker is healthy) the Browns will have one of the best running games in the league. Hopefully, Harrison will light it up this year and finally be utilized. BTW, the guys here who think he can't run between the tackles or last more than 5 carries a game blow my mind. This dude was an iron man at WSU and went for just short of 2000 yards in a season. I actually prefer him as a short yardage back because he hits the crease and stays low. We all know what Lewis does, and that's run upright and tippy toe through a hole that rapidly closes.
This line will be more finesse on the left side and plow horse on the right side. Keep in mind that Thomas will still slide over in jumbo packages for an overloaded right side. Also, Steinbach did not have a great year last year but it certainly didn't suck. He played most of the year hurt and plugging for Fraley, so put that to rest that Steinbach is on the decline. Worst come to worst, Steiny could move to RT but I doubt the Browns would ever want to do that. The bottom line is you would have 4 top notch guys with only RT being a liability and only in the passing game.
Factor in possibly the best line depth since maybe the 80's and there is room for optimism, especially with BQ making plays and keeping drives alive. You can afford the occasional pass rush from one side of the field with a competent QB, but not a guy who is going to chuck the ball without even an attempt to elude the rush or hit a quick dump off.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, but let's not kid ourselves and act like St.Claire is going to be some kind of stud for us just because he started a few games for Chicago. He should be able to fill the void but that's based on the fine play of the rest of the line.
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Some very good offensive line comments. I believe that Mangini saw and realized that teams pushed the pocket from the middle especially since they knew that Anderson wasn't very mobile. Teams brought pressure up the middle which really showed Fraley as the weakest point to attack. Steinbach being hurt and Hadnot as an average OLmen couldn't stop the pressure. Thus, the need to get a stud in the middle. Hopefully, Mack can be that and it will take the pressure off the guards. One breakdown can cause a chain reaction on the offensive line. Fraley needing help left Thomas vulnerable to stunts and blitzes and also made Shaffer look extremely bad because he was on an island.
I do believe that Shaffer is gone more because of his effort at the end of the season then his lack of ability to play RT. As far as this year, Tucker is an animal when healthy. In 2007 he destroyed people and solidified the line from his RG position. Shaffer was stuck on an island so he looked very good also. I'm hoping Tucker is healthy enough to deliver on the field because he is a great influence in the locker room and very well respected by the other linemen. He will be a big influence on Mack and also make St Clair a better player or in the case of him playing RT, he will make Womack or Hadnot look much better.
Tucker's personality is infectious and is needed for this line. Thomas and Steinbach are quite leaders and Womack and St Clair are new. Sometimes a line can become cohesive and the sum of the parts better then the individuals might have proven to be in the past because of a guy that has the personality and attitude that is infectious.
Make no mistake about it, Tucker is respected by his peers, a leader on and off the field and a damn good player when healthy. This teams needs Tucker to be healthy and be that glue to make this line a unit. The success of this line could be what makes this offense productive or not.
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Like I said before the draft, the hint that Mangini, bless him, knows the significance of the guys up front being able to dominate was
his two first round selections...
When he drafted D'Brickshaw and Mangold with his two first round picks, I respected him like crazy.
If RT is a slight weak link on this oline with Tucker getting up in years, or St. Claire not being the long term answer there....
it's still an offensive line that will kick some serious butt, and protect *QUINN* and make the entire offensive playbook possible.
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Last year, teams realized we could not effectively throw the ball so the concentration was on stopping the run....
At the start of the season we had JJ and Stallworth not playing, Edwards coming off an injury and Winslow reduced to a push off receiver...
We had no receivers to keep the defense honest... When we did get some throws off, Edwards dropped the damn ball again & again & again....
I think the team Mangini is putting together will be more focused on the run rather than the homerun pass....
Who knows, we might even see Rogers take on a refrigerator Perry role on the goalline......
T.Dawg
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Last year, teams realized we could not effectively throw the ball so the concentration was on stopping the run....
At the start of the season we had JJ and Stallworth not playing, Edwards coming off an injury and Winslow reduced to a push off receiver...
We had no receivers to keep the defense honest... When we did get some throws off, Edwards dropped the damn ball again & again & again....
I think the team Mangini is putting together will be more focused on the run rather than the homerun pass....
Who knows, we might even see Rogers take on a refrigerator Perry role on the goalline......
T.Dawg
Last year, teams realized we could not effectively throw the ball so the concentration was on stopping the run....
At the start of the season we had JJ and Stallworth not playing, Edwards coming off an injury and Winslow reduced to a push off receiver...
We had no receivers to keep the defense honest... When we did get some throws off, Edwards dropped the damn ball again & again & again....
I think the team Mangini is putting together will be more focused on the run rather than the homerun pass....
Who knows, we might even see Rogers take on a refrigerator Perry role on the goalline......
T.Dawg
Even though you've pointed out the obvious, you forgot to mention a qb coming of a major conconsion from which he still hasn't recovered. DA has been cross-eyed ever since. A little pressure of BE and our "soldier" out to pasture with TB, barring injury we should have a far different approach this year.
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Is everybody forgetting about rex hadnot? after the third start he played well. i think st clair and tucker will battle for rt, st clair prob will start at rt and hadnot is starting at rg.
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Is everybody forgetting about rex hadnot? after the third start he played well. i think st clair and tucker will battle for rt, st clair prob will start at rt and hadnot is starting at rg.
Is everybody forgetting about rex hadnot? after the third start he played well. i think st clair and tucker will battle for rt, st clair prob will start at rt and hadnot is starting at rg.
Is that your final answer?
Hadnot was NOT a good lineman last season, he was serviceable.
His pass blocking was average and didn't get any real push on running plays.
His versatility, being able to be average at guard and center, will give him a roster spot, but I don't see the guy EVER, EVER being a starter, barring injuries, with this team again.
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@shepwrite said:
As a right tackle, I think St. Clair goes up into the top third. Left tackle, not so much. I think he'll be a nice upgrade over Shaffer at that position.Just as we probably shouldn't have relied on a guy whose nickname is "the Human Hamstring Pull" to give us 16 games last year, I don't think a guy nicknamed "the Human Turnstile" is going to be a great all around right tackle for us.
But that doesn't mean it was a bad move to replace Shaffer with St. Clair, just a different approach to the position.
Particularly in the AFC North, one can argue that it's best to have two bookend tackles who are great pass protectors, thereby limiting the hurt Suggs, Woodley, and Harrison can put on your QB. That, I think, was part of the reasoning behind drafting Thomas and moving Shaffer to right tackle. If you can get good pass pro from both tackles, it really opens up the passing game, as we saw in '07.
On the other hand, one could argue that with the tough, physical defenses in our divison, you want a punch 'em in the mouth right tackle who can be a road grader on the right side. That way, you'll face less 3rd and longs, which is when those great pass rushers really pin their ears back and get after the QB.
These two approaches aren't mutually exclusive. Ideally, you want a guy who's got left tackle feet and mauls like a right guard. And I'm with ballpeen here: our scouts better be looking for a good RT prospect in next year's draft.
But you can't always have the perfect solution. And when Mangini can't, he clearly prefers having that road grader over having a bookend pass blocker. Just look at what he did last year: he signed a career interior lineman with only a few games' experience at tackle to play RT. I doubt he was expecting Damien Woody to be a great pass blocker; he probably figured he could give him enough help that pass blocking wouldn't be an issue, leaving him with a guy who'd open up holes on the right side. Considering that D'Brickashaw Ferguson is a poor run blocker, putting a mauler at RT made even more sense.
I'm guessing that the Browns' coaching staff is planning to do the same with St. Clair. If they leave the guy on an island, LaMarr Woodley is going to run right by him. But if you give him enough help, you can at least partly compensate for his slow feet.
With that in mind, it'd be nice to have a running back who's good at picking up blitzers and/or guys St. Clair occasionally whiffs on. Not sure we have one of those: IIRC, Noah Herron's good at it, but he's a roster bubble guy who probably won't be active on Sundays.
Aloysius said:
Just as we probably shouldn't have relied on a guy whose nickname is "the Human Hamstring Pull" to give us 16 games last year, I don't think a guy nicknamed "the Human Turnstile" is going to be a great all around right tackle for us.But that doesn't mean it was a bad move to replace Shaffer with St. Clair, just a different approach to the position.
Particularly in the AFC North, one can argue that it's best to have two bookend tackles who are great pass protectors, thereby limiting the hurt Suggs, Woodley, and Harrison can put on your QB. That, I think, was part of the reasoning behind drafting Thomas and moving Shaffer to right tackle. If you can get good pass pro from both tackles, it really opens up the passing game, as we saw in '07.
On the other hand, one could argue that with the tough, physical defenses in our divison, you want a punch 'em in the mouth right tackle who can be a road grader on the right side. That way, you'll face less 3rd and longs, which is when those great pass rushers really pin their ears back and get after the QB.
These two approaches aren't mutually exclusive. Ideally, you want a guy who's got left tackle feet and mauls like a right guard. And I'm with ballpeen here: our scouts better be looking for a good RT prospect in next year's draft.
But you can't always have the perfect solution. And when Mangini can't, he clearly prefers having that road grader over having a bookend pass blocker. Just look at what he did last year: he signed a career interior lineman with only a few games' experience at tackle to play RT. I doubt he was expecting Damien Woody to be a great pass blocker; he probably figured he could give him enough help that pass blocking wouldn't be an issue, leaving him with a guy who'd open up holes on the right side. Considering that D'Brickashaw Ferguson is a poor run blocker, putting a mauler at RT made even more sense.
I'm guessing that the Browns' coaching staff is planning to do the same with St. Clair. If they leave the guy on an island, LaMarr Woodley is going to run right by him. But if you give him enough help, you can at least partly compensate for his slow feet.
With that in mind, it'd be nice to have a running back who's good at picking up blitzers and/or guys St. Clair occasionally whiffs on. Not sure we have one of those: IIRC, Noah Herron's good at it, but he's a roster bubble guy who probably won't be active on Sundays.
They can give him help using a TE to chip block on the way out...at least that allow the guy to set his feet and not get beat on the outside in the first step, or as you say, keep a back in to help out, but long term he isn't a answer....as you note.
We need a real RT if we want the line to be one of the better lines in the league.
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Um Rex Hadnot only allowed 1.5 sacks in the entire 2008 season with 15 starts. I would call that a pretty good RG.
If you want to compare:
Joe Thomas allowed 4.5 sacks last season (16 starts & ProBowl)
Eric Steinbach allowed 3 Sacks (14 Starts)
Hank Fraley Allowd 2.5 sacks (16 starts)
Kevin Shaffer allowed 4.5 sacks. (15 starts)
With Rex Hadnot actually allowing the least amount of sacks out of ALL starting Browns OLinemen, I would say that Hadnot is going to be our starting RG unless somebody proves to be a stud.
Tucker & St. Clair are going to battle for RT. If Tucker can't win RT it is simply because he is to old and slow, and they aren't going to let him start at RG then. He will be a backup for G and T.
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