Biggest Areas of Concern
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You guys are both right in different ways.
Exactly.....which is why we BOTH (all) should be able to present our views without being told to shut up.....
(At least those of us who try to do it tactfully.......w/o personal attacks, name calling, insults, etc.....).....
I wish some of those guys would shut up......
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My concern is not having Josh Gordon out there to elevate the play of Britt, Njoku, and Coleman..
All because he likes to smoke some weed... Dude went to rehab voluntarily in September..Denied his reinstatement after 6 months of rehab and working out, all because of this dangerous substance, aka pot..
Sort of ridiculous if you ask me, but regardless, Higgins, Payton, Louis need to step up. They all need to step up.
I expect to see areas of concern in our WR corps, oline is going to take a bit to get it going, false starts and holdings will be a plenty.
I expect Kessler to play better, but is one hit away from holding a clipboard for the rest of his NFL existence,
and Kizer needs to sit and learn and study the speed, timing, and anticipation of NFL defenses.
I don't necessarily see one area of great success this season.. Maybe at the DL we added better players, but can they generate pressure as a group and not just one or two guys?
Can our secondary and linebackers slow down the likes of Antonio Brown, AJ Green, T.Y. Hilton, DeAndre Hopkins, Jordy Nelson, Alshon Jeffery, Delanie Walker, etc.?
I don't know.. I think we are going to need to put up 25+ a game to compete with at least 7 of these teams this season. That is going to be a tough task with Kessler/Osweiler at the helms.. -
You guys are both right in different ways.
You voted for Obama and Hillary.
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Hey Mudflap, let's talk about your points, without the Ghoolie venom.................
This is a Browns forum where folks want to come and have fun, to look forward to good times and critique all the goings on of the team. For sure, I can be a pisser on the parade., Believe me, I get it.
However, look at your own words. You have rightly called the Browns the worst franchise in the past 20 years, I believe it is the worst franchise in the history of pro football. But I digress. The part that many don't understand is that I AM a Browns fan and I want them to win. However, let me share the view from where I sit.
To be successful the Browns are going to have close the gap on the better teams. So in the case of the Steelers for example, I ask the simple question, what have we done to close the QB advantage they have? How about the WR advantage they have? RB? Now you see, the only answer anyone can give me is " If this guy pans out to be what we think:....
Mud, every NFL team had a bunch of rookies and unproven talent that "If this guy pans out to be what they think"...will dramatically transform their team. I cite Flugel as an absolute example of how Browns fans have become simpletons. Read his horseshit on " Greg Williams is going to really have these guys whipped into shape" horseshit. For 20 years this egg drop has been using the same exact sentences but putting in the new guys name every year.................He, and many like him have given a voluminous amount of blowjobs to Holmgren, Lerner, Haslam, Savage, Crennel, and on and on and on it goes...............
Again, I get it, that's a part of being a fan...............but in this case, a 7 year old fan, not grown men who should be able to think for themselves. One poster said something to the effect that " we can just get Wrs and RBs on the FA market. WTF? Yes, there are tons of that level talent just hanging around because nobody needs them........BUT........... fat ass OL? Yeah baby, that's where the money makers are.
The reasons no expert sees the Browns as measurably improved are the same reasons I lament. No QB, No WRs, No TE and very little RB punch. All this other talk about finally getting it right? It's horseshit, Mud. You know it's horseshit. There is no way this team will be improved, and in fact I believe it will be worse. 0 - 16? Maybe, 3 - 13? Sure, but 4 wins? C mon, we have 6 guaranteed division losses right out of the gate.
The one thing consistent in the last 17 years is that the Cleveland Browns refuse to draft the very creme of the playmaker crop. After the couch pick, we have taken QBs, WRs, and RBs that nobody else really wanted. Quinn? Manzeil? Please dude, nobody wanted those fucktards.
So, from my perspective, it is the majority who post here who are the trolls. 17 years of unrealistinc bullshit. Over and over and over.
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Listen....I appreciate the toned down approach...best way to get me engaged.....and you and I share a lot of the same feelings.......scary close on some of them.....and some we disagree on, but most thats football opinions on whats most important...
Most of my ranting lately has been about the outrageous optimism following 1 -15....its ridiculous......and the blindness to us doing exactly what weve been doing, yet claiming its some new approach....I wont list it point by point, cause I have many times already.....but I assure you(and everybody else) I have LOVED the Browns for 40 years.....Im just tired of the bullshit and am not convinced much has changed....
Look, to go from average to great, history shows you need to add several GREAT players and even more very good players....fast.....what people dont realize is we aren't even average.....were are terrible.....it will take a bunch of very good players just to get us back to average.....and even more to achieve great......and if I look at 2016-2017 for by measuring stick.....we are not remotely close.....in fact, we are barely doing whats needed to get to average....slowly.....
And in 2 years now.....I honestly dont see one "great" player added to this team....we have added a couple "very goods" and a few goods ones.....but, considering we let approx 12 contributors leave, during the same period, I dont see any overall gains.....and a number of losses.....
Gonna be another ....very .....long season.....
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Playmakers = RBs + WRs... both can be added at any time via the draft or FA. We are building foundations... front to back and inside out... just like real teams do.
Foundations (O-Line, D-Line)... both can be added at any time via the draft or FA.
QB, WR, RB? These are just as much "foundational" players as any other. In some cases more so. Focusing on one area and ignoring another (or simply failing at building another) regardless of what side you feel is more important, is a strategy that will always fail.
Pryor's contract ended up being cheap and short-term. We offered more over a longer period. He declined and wanted to shop. Pryor fucked up; we did not. We wanted a contract that locked him into service after further investment in his development, should he develop. Guess what, assuming he does develop in WSH we can bid for him again if we so desire.
The same desire to shop was true of Schwartz. In both cases we gauged their value better than they did. By standing by our evaluations we have set a tone for all future negotiations. Plus in our deals with Zeitler and Collins we have shown that we are willing to pay top dollar when we think the player is worth it.
What is "setting the tone" for future negotiations? Hardball? LOL There are VERY few teams who have that luxury and the Browns are FAR from being one of them.
Pryor fucked up... And so did the Browns. Pryor got less money. The Browns lost a playmaker. Schwartz fucked up... And so did the Browns. Schwartz got less money. And the Browns have had ??? at RT (although I admit to liking Coleman a hell of a lot and disappointed they let Pasztor walk as I believed him to be better than what he was given credit for). Neither party gained anything by playing these negotiations the way they did.
So we needed to spend willy-nilly just to simply elevate our payroll's standing? /s
We stripped down to our shorts and are now filling our closet. It'll take time. As pointed out a couple times above money has to be held in reserve for long-term deals for our high draft picks if and when they show their worthiness of the picks we spent on them.
Rebuilding is a process... one that will likely keep us in the bottom ten of payrolls for two or three more seasons, but the vector is angled up and when it takes off we will leapfrog a lot of teams in a hurry. Payroll is a "lagging indicator".
You're completely missing the point.
I don't mind the strategy of stripping it down and building it up with a consistent vision. I have praised them for doing such.
I do have a problem with calling that strategy an "open wallet". It's a mislabel and entirely disingenuous. We can laud the team for doing the things they are actually doing well without having to make up BS to support our position.
We don't have a QB (yet). Our WR corps is abysmal. Our management is silent on Josh Gordon and that's a travesty. And our secondary is ugly ass fuck. The team will go nowhere without those areas addressed.But I'm not an "all negative" guy. Far from it. I like Jackson. I love the hire of Williams. I believe the Browns to have a "Top Ten" in both the defensive AND offensive lines this season and that should make a huge difference in how competitive they play on a consistent basis. I think Njoku and Devalve are going to be a potent punch at TE. I was against making a big addition at RB, because I like Duke and love Crowell. DeShone Kizer in the second was a COUP and showed up the teams who were sacrificing big assets to draft QBs this season in the first round. Getting a second for taking on Osweiller was a trade I am unabashed support of. I am very excited to see the improvements for this season and I can't wait for next year's draft.
I'm not just an asshole who pisses on everything Browns. And I don't appreciate being treated as though that's the case. Especially from a cat like yourself who I have an incredible amount of respect for and whom I learn a lot about the sport from.
We don't have a QB (yet). Our WR corps is abysmal. Our management is silent on Josh Gordon and that's a travesty. And our secondary is ugly ass fuck. The team will go nowhere without those areas addressed.But I'm not an "all negative" guy. Far from it. I like Jackson. I love the hire of Williams. I believe the Browns to have a "Top Ten" in both the defensive AND offensive lines this season and that should make a huge difference in how competitive they play on a consistent basis. I think Njoku and Devalve are going to be a potent punch at TE. I was against making a big addition at RB, because I like Duke and love Crowell. DeShone Kizer in the second was a COUP and showed up the teams who were sacrificing big assets to draft QBs this season in the first round. Getting a second for taking on Osweiller was a trade I am unabashed support of. I am very excited to see the improvements for this season and I can't wait for next year's draft.
I'm not just an asshole who pisses on everything Browns. And I don't appreciate being treated as though that's the case. Especially from a cat like yourself who I have an incredible amount of respect for and whom I learn a lot about the sport from.
No disrespect was meant.... just disagreements stated where we disagree. If you've read my posts, especially lately, you can note that I don't waste time responding to posters who/posts that I don't respect... and I've "ignore listed" those who most consistently waste my time.
Quality OL are now one of the scarcest commodities in FA and the draft. The NCAA style is responsible for the draft's dearth of talent and in turn that reality has increased the value of OL in the NFL.On the other hand RB and WR are the two of the most plentiful positions... IMO. I simply think it is easier to add the latter two later...
We are in lockstep on our QB situation. Not there yet, but have possibilities both current and future.
And, yes, there are still other areas to be addressed including the 2ndary... another area where I see off-season talent being plentiful. Plus I'm really looking forward to seeing how ours performs under new leadership, a new philosophy and behind a bolstered DL. I think our organization is as well... thus the lack of priority there this off season.
One last point of clarification, not contention... I've cited multiple instances where in 2017 Jimmah has opened his wallet. That's different from having an "open wallet policy"... an approach I do not like.
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Listen....I appreciate the toned down approach...best way to get me engaged.....and you and I share a lot of the same feelings.......scary close on some of them.....and some we disagree on, but most thats football opinions on whats most important...
Most of my ranting lately has been about the outrageous optimism following 1 -15....its ridiculous......and the blindness to us doing exactly what weve been doing, yet claiming its some new approach....I wont list it point by point, cause I have many times already.....but I assure you(and everybody else) I have LOVED the Browns for 40 years.....Im just tired of the bullshit and am not convinced much has changed....
Look, to go from average to great, history shows you need to add several GREAT players and even more very good players....fast.....what people dont realize is we aren't even average.....were are terrible.....it will take a bunch of very good players just to get us back to average.....and even more to achieve great......and if I look at 2016-2017 for by measuring stick.....we are not remotely close.....in fact, we are barely doing whats needed to get to average....slowly.....
And in 2 years now.....I honestly dont see one "great" player added to this team....we have added a couple "very goods" and a few goods ones.....but, considering we let approx 12 contributors leave, during the same period, I dont see any overall gains.....and a number of losses.....
Gonna be another ....very .....long season.....
.
Listen....I appreciate the toned down approach...best way to get me engaged.....and you and I share a lot of the same feelings.......scary close on some of them...
Sweet Jesus... agreement with Phoolie?
Maybe you do need to take a break...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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There is a bunch of unrealistic optimism? At how many wins does the optimism become unrealistic? I'm thinking anything more than 7.
It is hard to put a number of wins to what a "good" season would be. We're at the stage where steady improvement and being within striking distance most games is considered good.
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Biggest Areas of Concern
...just as a refresher:
QB.......WR.......TE......RT........LB.......S.......CB
That's quite a long list of areas of concern.
Now, we addressed some of these issues in the draft. But it don't mean squat until we see that the draftee is good, (or not) That is why I didn't like letting our veteran all pro TE go BEFORE we knew that the draftee could fill his spot. We've certainly seen draft picks fail before.
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You guys are both right in different ways.
You voted for Obama and Hillary.
You voted for Obama and Hillary.
Yeah man, what gave it away? My vehement defense of the confederate flag?
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Listen....I appreciate the toned down approach...best way to get me engaged.....and you and I share a lot of the same feelings.......scary close on some of them.....and some we disagree on, but most thats football opinions on whats most important...
Most of my ranting lately has been about the outrageous optimism following 1 -15....its ridiculous......and the blindness to us doing exactly what weve been doing, yet claiming its some new approach....I wont list it point by point, cause I have many times already.....but I assure you(and everybody else) I have LOVED the Browns for 40 years.....Im just tired of the bullshit and am not convinced much has changed....
Look, to go from average to great, history shows you need to add several GREAT players and even more very good players....fast.....what people dont realize is we aren't even average.....were are terrible.....it will take a bunch of very good players just to get us back to average.....and even more to achieve great......and if I look at 2016-2017 for by measuring stick.....we are not remotely close.....in fact, we are barely doing whats needed to get to average....slowly.....
And in 2 years now.....I honestly dont see one "great" player added to this team....we have added a couple "very goods" and a few goods ones.....but, considering we let approx 12 contributors leave, during the same period, I dont see any overall gains.....and a number of losses.....
Gonna be another ....very .....long season.....
.
Listen....I appreciate the toned down approach...best way to get me engaged.....and you and I share a lot of the same feelings.......scary close on some of them.....and some we disagree on, but most thats football opinions on whats most important...
Most of my ranting lately has been about the outrageous optimism following 1 -15....its ridiculous......and the blindness to us doing exactly what weve been doing, yet claiming its some new approach....I wont list it point by point, cause I have many times already.....but I assure you(and everybody else) I have LOVED the Browns for 40 years.....Im just tired of the bullshit and am not convinced much has changed....
Look, to go from average to great, history shows you need to add several GREAT players and even more very good players....fast.....what people dont realize is we aren't even average.....were are terrible.....it will take a bunch of very good players just to get us back to average.....and even more to achieve great......and if I look at 2016-2017 for by measuring stick.....we are not remotely close.....in fact, we are barely doing whats needed to get to average....slowly.....
And in 2 years now.....I honestly dont see one "great" player added to this team....we have added a couple "very goods" and a few goods ones.....but, considering we let approx 12 contributors leave, during the same period, I dont see any overall gains.....and a number of losses.....
Gonna be another ....very .....long season.....
.
Dude, I agree with you more often than not, but confusion and chaos are vital ingredients to help people (not you) see clearly.
Your points on improving are spot on. If you want to gain ground on the Steelers....then what are your answers for their top stars? The answer can't be....Analytics and Assets are giving us a lot of young talent. Young talent is an ingredient, for sure, but so are dependable playmakers who the team can be sure will produce.
The only way the Browns will be improved is is an inordinately high percentage of our players pan out to be far above average. That's just not feasible. It is unrealistic.
Somewhere over the years Browns fans and I guess management have taken the approach the the hottest prospect playmakers are just not for us. Is that Browns ownership is cheap? stupid? I am not saying this to pat myself on the back, but rather as an example of just how out of touch the Browns are....I was watching the Draft at a bar, when we took Garrett, I swear to you a split second before the Bears made their move, I said, someene is going to take Trubisky at #2.
now, whether or not he is going to be great is not the issue. The issue is, anyone who knows anything realized that Trubisky was the best gamble for big turnout in the 2017 draft. The Browns simply don't bet on big payout players We take players that come with explanations about why this was really the better pick.
I want the Browns to win. But how do you win without players who can light it up?
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Yeah man, what gave it away? My vehement defense of the confederate flag?
Just pulling your leg, man. Aren't you enjoy watching Calsnots get his panties caught in his snapper?
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I'll just say this.. The actions of this team , tells Me they do not believe building the franchise around the QB by building a solid QB room. They drafted and brought in so many lineman on both sides of the ball. I'm wondering which one of them us gonna be the QB and score points.. Because we have 0 QB and 0 at the WR position.. What a sad joke this franchise is.
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~
:lol:
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