Great QB/mediocre defense vs. Great defense/mediocre QB
-
Looking at jrb's link.....While these two teams had highly ranked offenses.....can it be fair to say that Jay Schroeder ..1987 Redskins QB and Mark Rypien...1991 Redskins QB fall into the ranks of "mediocre" QBs that have won a title?
That, to me, is a testament to the greatness of Joe Gibbs as a coach.
And while I know that a lot of people consider Jim Plunkett a so so QB.....to a point I have to disagree. His overall career stats are not as impressive as some....but, here IS a guy with a lot of talent. He won the Heisman Trophy. He was the #1 overall pick in the draft...but he did get off to a very slow start to his career, the the point that the team that originally drafted him cut him loose. But...the dude won 2 Super Bowls later in his career. He just had to be put into a system in which he could flourish. He did not become one of the legion of "Heisman Bust" QBs...as he was thought to be early on.
He was not the only Super Bowl winner/Hall of Fame QB to have had a rough start. Look at Len Dawson: cut by both the Browns and Steelers....and he had to go find his career in the AFL.
Johnny U. cut by the Steelers....he had to get a job with an expansion team. Joe Theismann....played in Canada...may have even been cut by the Dolphins. Steve Young went through both the LA Express and the Tampa Bay Bucs before finding his career in SFO.
Favre...traded by the Falcons. Kurt Warner...bagging groceries and playing in the Arena League....and now in a week or so he will be inducted into the HOF.
(so...what I am saying is: maybe Brock Osweiler can follow these examples???? Guhh.
-
Someone else did the job for me on another thread....listing those who won the SB and those who lost. Here is that list:
1: Bart Starr/Len Dawson
2: Bart Starr/Daryle Lamonica
3. Joe Namath/ Earl Morrall
4. Len Dawson/Joe Kapp
5. Johnny Unitas/Craig Morton
6. Roger Staubach/ Bob Griese
7. Bob Griese/ Bill Kilmer
8. Bob Griese/ Fran Tarkenton
9. Terry Bradshaw/Fran Tarkenton
10. Terry Bradshaw/ Roger Staubach
11. Ken Stabler/ Fran Tarkenton
12. Roger Staubach/ Craig Morton
13. Terry Bradshaw/ Roger Staubach
14. Terry Bradshaw/ Vince Farragamo
15. Jim Plunkett/ Ron Jaworski
16. Joe Montana/ Ken Anderson
17. Joe Theisman/ David Woodley
18. Jim Plunkett/ Joe Theisman
19. Joe Montana/ Dan Marino
20. Jim McMahon/ Tony Eason
21. Phil Simms/ John Elway
22. Doug Williams/ John Elway
23. Joe Montana/ Boomer Esiason
24. Joe Montana/ John Elway
25. Jeff Hostetler/ Jim Kelly
26. Mark Rypien/ Jim Kelly
27. Troy Aikman/ Jim Kelly
28. Troy Aikman/ Jim Kelly
29. Steve Young/ Stan Humpheries
30. Troy Aikman/ Neil O'Donnell
31. Brett Favre/ Drew Bledsoe
32. John Elway/ Brett Favre
33. John Elway/ Chris Chandler
34. Kurt Warner/ Steve McNair
35. Trent Dilfer/ Kerry Collins
36. Tom Brady/ Kurt Warner
37. Brad Johnson/ Rich Gannon
38. Tom Brady/ Jake Delhomme
39. Tom Brady/ Donovan McNabb
40. Ben Roethlisberger/ Matt Hasselbeck
41. Peyton Manning/ Rex Grossman
42. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady
43. Ben Roethlisberger/ Kurt Warner
44. Drew Brees/ Peyton Manning
45. Aaron Rodgers/ Ben Roethlisberger
46. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady
47. Joe Flacco/ Colin Kaepernick
48. Russell Wilson/ Peyton Manning
49. Tom Brady/ Russell Wilson
50. Peyton Manning/ Cam Newton
51. Tom Brady/ Matt Ryan
We kind of went over the SB winners. What about some of the losers. Which QBs on there were, shall we say Mediocre.....carried along by a great defense? ("game managers....at least for that period, if you will")
I mean, there are a couple of guys on that list that I don't think anyone at this point would consider to even be a "good" NFL QB:
Rex Grossman, David Woodly. Yet their team made a Super Bowl. And I think some are at best "average or slightly above average": Chandler, Humphries, O'Donnell, Eason, Ferragamo, Kapp, Delhomme, Kilmer.
Some of the others were "very good"...but not on the Hall of Fame level: Hasselback, Jaworski, Esiason, McNabb (though I think he may become HOF), Gannon, McNair, Morton, Anderson (same with him...I think possible HOF level...at least close), Lamonica.
Now: what about this guy: Colin Kaepernick? (I don't want to get into issues of his politics...just his QBing). He started out like a house afire....a Super Bowl appearance in which he was thisclose to winning. Plus another NFC title game. Then the apparent dropoff. (I believe if anyone thought his talent was still there that he would most definitely have a job now)
-
I'd say Bob Griese/Earl Morral were mediocre QBs that had a great defense back in 1972. It was Miami's running attack that carried the load on those teams, along with Paul Warfield at WR.
Mike Phipps' 5 INTs were the only reason the Browns lost that playoff game (plus a blocked punt).
-
I'd say Bob Griese/Earl Morral were mediocre QBs that had a great defense back in 1972. It was Miami's running attack that carried the load on those teams, along with Paul Warfield at WR.
Mike Phipps' 5 INTs were the only reason the Browns lost that playoff game (plus a blocked punt).
I'd say Bob Griese/Earl Morral were mediocre QBs that had a great defense back in 1972. It was Miami's running attack that carried the load on those teams, along with Paul Warfield at WR.
Mike Phipps' 5 INTs were the only reason the Browns lost that playoff game (plus a blocked punt).
But...Bob Griese is in the HOF as a QB. So a lot of people thought enough of him as a QB to vote him in....which is saying something.
As for Morrall....he is an exception. He was a backup QB that came in basically because Johnny U was hurt....and JU did come into the 2d half of that game to try to pull it out.
Would you say the same about Jeff Hostetler? Backup QB....game won by a great defense?
-
Gip, I love ya man, but honestly, only fucking Browns fans would get into a heated debate here. Horrta and his band of buffoons, the Hoortards, are like the mainstream media attacking Trump. The truth has no bearing, the fuckers are going to write their narrative no matter what.
Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense......
Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had.
Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class.
Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance.
So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar.
Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn?
Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDsThe Cleveland Browns have the hardest hit players in the NFL -
Someone else did the job for me on another thread....listing those who won the SB and those who lost. Here is that list:
1: Bart Starr/Len Dawson
2: Bart Starr/Daryle Lamonica
3. Joe Namath/ Earl Morrall
4. Len Dawson/Joe Kapp
5. Johnny Unitas/Craig Morton
6. Roger Staubach/ Bob Griese
7. Bob Griese/ Bill Kilmer
8. Bob Griese/ Fran Tarkenton
9. Terry Bradshaw/Fran Tarkenton
10. Terry Bradshaw/ Roger Staubach
11. Ken Stabler/ Fran Tarkenton
12. Roger Staubach/ Craig Morton
13. Terry Bradshaw/ Roger Staubach
14. Terry Bradshaw/ Vince Farragamo
15. Jim Plunkett/ Ron Jaworski
16. Joe Montana/ Ken Anderson
17. Joe Theisman/ David Woodley
18. Jim Plunkett/ Joe Theisman
19. Joe Montana/ Dan Marino
20. Jim McMahon/ Tony Eason
21. Phil Simms/ John Elway
22. Doug Williams/ John Elway
23. Joe Montana/ Boomer Esiason
24. Joe Montana/ John Elway
25. Jeff Hostetler/ Jim Kelly
26. Mark Rypien/ Jim Kelly
27. Troy Aikman/ Jim Kelly
28. Troy Aikman/ Jim Kelly
29. Steve Young/ Stan Humpheries
30. Troy Aikman/ Neil O'Donnell
31. Brett Favre/ Drew Bledsoe
32. John Elway/ Brett Favre
33. John Elway/ Chris Chandler
34. Kurt Warner/ Steve McNair
35. Trent Dilfer/ Kerry Collins
36. Tom Brady/ Kurt Warner
37. Brad Johnson/ Rich Gannon
38. Tom Brady/ Jake Delhomme
39. Tom Brady/ Donovan McNabb
40. Ben Roethlisberger/ Matt Hasselbeck
41. Peyton Manning/ Rex Grossman
42. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady
43. Ben Roethlisberger/ Kurt Warner
44. Drew Brees/ Peyton Manning
45. Aaron Rodgers/ Ben Roethlisberger
46. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady
47. Joe Flacco/ Colin Kaepernick
48. Russell Wilson/ Peyton Manning
49. Tom Brady/ Russell Wilson
50. Peyton Manning/ Cam Newton
51. Tom Brady/ Matt Ryan
We kind of went over the SB winners. What about some of the losers. Which QBs on there were, shall we say Mediocre.....carried along by a great defense? ("game managers....at least for that period, if you will")
I mean, there are a couple of guys on that list that I don't think anyone at this point would consider to even be a "good" NFL QB:
Rex Grossman, David Woodly. Yet their team made a Super Bowl. And I think some are at best "average or slightly above average": Chandler, Humphries, O'Donnell, Eason, Ferragamo, Kapp, Delhomme, Kilmer.
Some of the others were "very good"...but not on the Hall of Fame level: Hasselback, Jaworski, Esiason, McNabb (though I think he may become HOF), Gannon, McNair, Morton, Anderson (same with him...I think possible HOF level...at least close), Lamonica.
Now: what about this guy: Colin Kaepernick? (I don't want to get into issues of his politics...just his QBing). He started out like a house afire....a Super Bowl appearance in which he was thisclose to winning. Plus another NFC title game. Then the apparent dropoff. (I believe if anyone thought his talent was still there that he would most definitely have a job now)
42. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady
46. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady
Tom Brady gets ass raped twice by a Giant's defense..No where to run. No where to hide for Tom Terrific..Scoring 17 points than 14 points..ok, just glad to get that off my chest again..cough,cough
-
Thread inspired by comments in a different thread.
Sort of a "Great debate" on here of which is more vital....a great QB or a great defense. I am not really interested in getting into that debate right here and now (though I suspect it is inevitable). What I am interested in is what HAS happened in the past:
What "Championship Level" teams have had a Great QB but a mediocre defense? (they don't have to have won the title...but at least they needed to have competed for it).
What "Championship Level" teams have had mediocre QBs but great defenses?
The one year that comes to mind is the year the Colts played the Bears in the Super Bowl.
The Colts had the great Peyton Manning.....but statistically for the regular season their defense was way below par. I would have to look it up but I know that they were ranked somewhere in the mid 20s in the league. Although...to be fair, that defense really stepped it up in the playoffs.
On the other hand....the Bears had the very unremarkable Rex Grossman playing QB for them....but that team had an outstanding defense...one of the top rated.
In that case, the great QB prevailed as the Colts won.
In other years as have been documented there are teams where a great defense carried a mediocre QB:
2000 Ravens...Dilfer at QB
2002 Buccaneers...Brad Johnson at QB
2005 Steelers...the then still learning but not HOF quality Ben R.
Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?
Really? A SB list of winning QBs where 40% of the time they don't even rate the SB MVP award is a convincing argument?
I fucking decide to un-ignore you and that's what I get?
Sort of a "Great debate" on here...
It wasn't in the inspiring thread, but it might have been here...
And you were onto something with Hos and Rypien. Can even add a few more...
Problem is a simple QB vs D debate is just that... simple... too simple. There are so many more facets to this team game we love... and you cannot suck at any of them and be successful... but you can be merely "good" at one or two and succeed, if you are strong enough in the other areas.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Gip, I love ya man, but honestly, only fucking Browns fans would get into a heated debate here. Horrta and his band of buffoons, the Hoortards, are like the mainstream media attacking Trump. The truth has no bearing, the fuckers are going to write their narrative no matter what.
Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense......
Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had.
Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class.
Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance.
So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar.
Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn?
Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDsGip, I love ya man, but honestly, only fucking Browns fans would get into a heated debate here. Horrta and his band of buffoons, the Hoortards, are like the mainstream media attacking Trump. The truth has no bearing, the fuckers are going to write their narrative no matter what.
Trump gets attacked because Trump is psychotic...the truth, yes, has no bearing...to Trump...but that is another issue, not for here
We have debates about these things because it is entertaining to do so.
Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense......
You are wrong about Browns fans loathing star quality QBs...their own. Yes, we are perfectly capable of loathing the start QBs ...of other teams.
Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had.
BK did not have the defense to go with him.
Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class.
Well, you may be missing the point.....it IS proven that yes, once in a blue moon that you can win a SB with an average QB. But it is far, far more rare to have a team win a SB with an average defense. Like once in an eclipse.
Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance.
Well...I don't think there are ANY that do think that. You are just deluding yourself if you think so....or you are creating a false argument to prop up whatever it is that you have in your own mind. Browns fan would love a star QB.....NOW...tell us when we are going to have one.
So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar.
Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn?
No, but there is practically the equivalent: Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler. Think about why these guys won (and Dilfer): great defense.
Again....I think you miss the point here. How many of these HOF QBs won with an average defense. One or two maybe. Fewer than have won with an average QB.
Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs
-
Really? A SB list of winning QBs where 40% of the time they don't even rate the SB MVP award is a convincing argument?
I fucking decide to un-ignore you and that's what I get?
Sort of a "Great debate" on here...
It wasn't in the inspiring thread, but it might have been here...
And you were onto something with Hos and Rypien. Can even add a few more...
Problem is a simple QB vs D debate is just that... simple... too simple. There are so many more facets to this team game we love... and you cannot suck at any of them and be successful... but you can be merely "good" at one or two and succeed, if you are strong enough in the other areas.
Really? A SB list of winning QBs where 40% of the time they don't even rate the SB MVP award is a convincing argument?
I fucking decide to un-ignore you and that's what I get?
It wasn't in the inspiring thread, but it might have been here...
And you were onto something with Hos and Rypien. Can even add a few more...
Problem is a simple QB vs D debate is just that... simple... too simple. There are so many more facets to this team game we love... and you cannot suck at any of them and be successful... but you can be merely "good" at one or two and succeed, if you are strong enough in the other areas.
Sure...of course it is not that simple. Nevertheless...remember, none of us get paid to be on here or to try to dissect complicated matters. For entertainment purposes we watch Superhero movies, not epics. Same here.
-
Fair enough...
Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.
Which is the easier route to follow?
- Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
- Build a great D and land a very good QB?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Fair enough...
Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.
Which is the easier route to follow?
- Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
- Build a great D and land a very good QB?
Fair enough...
Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.
Which is the easier route to follow?
- Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
- Build a great D and land a very good QB?
Well, I expect most teams would like to do both. I mean, any GM of a team tries to do both. But, they have to get lucky. When the Browns drafted the likes of Quinn, Manziel, Weeden at #22...they were hoping they got the equivalent of Aaron Rodgers...a #24 pick.
When they drafted Justin Gilbert at #8 they were hoping they were getting a Patrick Peterson...and not a Justin Gilbert.
The Steelers back in 2004 had built a great defense/OL/run game....but they needed a star QB to put the icing on the cake. They got BR who became HOF caliber....but, they just as easily could have gotten a Matt Leinert, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell.
In some respects, that is why some teams go the route of picking up veteran QBs.....QBs who have some track record in the game.
Look at that list above of SB winning QBs. I count at least 9 of them who did not get there with the original team that drafted them.
So, there is that route. Consider these words: Brock Osweiler, Super Bowl Winning Quarterback!
(not necessarily as far fetched as Trent Dilfer, Super Bowl Winning QB...or Brad Johnson, fair to say?)
-
"Like to" is not a plan...
One or the other...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
-
I'd say Bob Griese/Earl Morral were mediocre QBs that had a great defense back in 1972. It was Miami's running attack that carried the load on those teams, along with Paul Warfield at WR.
Mike Phipps' 5 INTs were the only reason the Browns lost that playoff game (plus a blocked punt).
But...Bob Griese is in the HOF as a QB. So a lot of people thought enough of him as a QB to vote him in....which is saying something.
As for Morrall....he is an exception. He was a backup QB that came in basically because Johnny U was hurt....and JU did come into the 2d half of that game to try to pull it out.
Would you say the same about Jeff Hostetler? Backup QB....game won by a great defense?
But...Bob Griese is in the HOF as a QB. So a lot of people thought enough of him as a QB to vote him in....which is saying something.
As for Morrall....he is an exception. He was a backup QB that came in basically because Johnny U was hurt....and JU did come into the 2d half of that game to try to pull it out.
Would you say the same about Jeff Hostetler? Backup QB....game won by a great defense?
Bob Griese was ok, ike Rocky Blier. How they got into Canton is a mystery to me...nothing exceptional, just part of a great team.
Yes, in regards to Hostetler.
-
But...Bob Griese is in the HOF as a QB. So a lot of people thought enough of him as a QB to vote him in....which is saying something.
As for Morrall....he is an exception. He was a backup QB that came in basically because Johnny U was hurt....and JU did come into the 2d half of that game to try to pull it out.
Would you say the same about Jeff Hostetler? Backup QB....game won by a great defense?
Bob Griese was ok, ike Rocky Blier. How they got into Canton is a mystery to me...nothing exceptional, just part of a great team.
Yes, in regards to Hostetler.
-
Fair enough...
Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.
Which is the easier route to follow?
- Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
- Build a great D and land a very good QB?
Fair enough...
Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.
Which is the easier route to follow?
- Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
- Build a great D and land a very good QB?
Again, it's looking at the breakdown really. I know this is a flawed view to look at it (to a point), but looking at the position a QB was drafted is interesting. Using my list:
Manning (x2)
Brady
Big Ben
Brees
Rodgers
Flacco
Wilson
Of those 8 guys, both Mannings were drafted first, Ben was 7th (or 8th without looking it up). I'd say those guys were pretty much "land a QB first".
Then you have Rodgers, Brees, and Flacco who were mid-to-late first round guys (Brees was technically a 2nd round pick at the time I know). That's a deeper question, but I'd still argue that's closer to "land a QB first".
Then you got Brady and Wilson, who by this definition were more of the "good defense first" group.
Again, this isn't the best way to look at it without a deeper scope of each of those teams when the dudes got drafted, but overall the answer to me is that it's pretty evenly split. In that regard, I'm fine with what the Browns appear to be doing in building the defense first.
-
Thread inspired by comments in a different thread.
Sort of a "Great debate" on here of which is more vital....a great QB or a great defense. I am not really interested in getting into that debate right here and now (though I suspect it is inevitable). What I am interested in is what HAS happened in the past:
What "Championship Level" teams have had a Great QB but a mediocre defense? (they don't have to have won the title...but at least they needed to have competed for it).
What "Championship Level" teams have had mediocre QBs but great defenses?
The one year that comes to mind is the year the Colts played the Bears in the Super Bowl.
The Colts had the great Peyton Manning.....but statistically for the regular season their defense was way below par. I would have to look it up but I know that they were ranked somewhere in the mid 20s in the league. Although...to be fair, that defense really stepped it up in the playoffs.
On the other hand....the Bears had the very unremarkable Rex Grossman playing QB for them....but that team had an outstanding defense...one of the top rated.
In that case, the great QB prevailed as the Colts won.
In other years as have been documented there are teams where a great defense carried a mediocre QB:
2000 Ravens...Dilfer at QB
2002 Buccaneers...Brad Johnson at QB
2005 Steelers...the then still learning but not HOF quality Ben R.
Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?
Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?
The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers
Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.
Neil O'Donnell at QB.
Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.
-
Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?
The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers
Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.
Neil O'Donnell at QB.
Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.
The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers
Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.
Neil O'Donnell at QB.
Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.
They were 5th in scoring offense, 9th in scoring defense.
And Dallas was a much better team, it was a weak year for the AFC, Dallas, Green Bay and SF were all better than Pittsburgh.
Zombo
-
Gip, I love ya man, but honestly, only fucking Browns fans would get into a heated debate here. Horrta and his band of buffoons, the Hoortards, are like the mainstream media attacking Trump. The truth has no bearing, the fuckers are going to write their narrative no matter what.
Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense......
Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had.
Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class.
Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance.
So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar.
Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn?
Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDsSuper Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season.
Posted: January 14, 1974
Super Bowl VIII
Miami 24, Minnesota 7
SuperBowl.com wire reports
Rice Stadium
Houston, Texas
January 13, 1974
Attendance: 71,882
MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami
SCORING 1 2 3 4Miami 14 3 7 0 24Minnesota 0 0 0 7 71st Quarter
MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27 MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:382nd Quarter MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:583rd Quarter MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:164th Quarter
MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?
The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers
Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.
Neil O'Donnell at QB.
Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.
The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers
Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.
Neil O'Donnell at QB.
Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.
Neil O'Donnell had a very, very uncharacteristic day that day. He has the lowest career int.% of any retired QB.....Only active players the likes of Rogers, Wilson, and Brady, Derek Carr, Bradford...and....Kaepernick have a better career low career int. %.
So, the 3 ints. he threw in that game were highly out of character.
So, if he had just done what was usually in his character, they may have won.
And the Indians should have won 3 WS since 1995. And the Browns should have won like 9 out of 10 championships back in the 50s.
But...shit happens.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login