Browns looking at WR trade ?

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

Agree, Gip... just doesn't seem to be in keeping with maximizing the league's talent level and strengthening the lesser teams.

Plus in the past waiver wire action has been a great source of fan discussion. This year? Not so much....

Well...it probably WILL be once they end up making cuts. Right now, there is not much to discuss. Browns did let go of a couple of players: Des Bryant (probably so that he COULD get picked up by another team and get going with their system). Who else? And Browns did pick up at least one guy...another Bryant...the DB. Anyone else?

TexasAg1969

@tour2ma said:

Plus in the past waiver wire action has been a great source of fan discussion. This year? Not so much....

I think the change on when it is mandatory to drop players has had a major impact on the waiver wire and the discussions here.

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:

Well...it probably WILL be once they end up making cuts. Right now, there is not much to discuss. Browns did let go of a couple of players: Des Bryant (probably so that he COULD get picked up by another team and get going with their system). Who else? And Browns did pick up at least one guy...another Bryant...the DB. Anyone else?

Not well expressed by me, but the thought was that in the past there were weeks of buzz around the waiver wire and roster moves with a fresh wave coming weekly.

This year, yes, there will be "buzz", but it's going to be compressed into 24 hours.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@tour2ma said:

I'm going to take issue with that... hear me out...

Biggest deficiency I've seen in Kizer, and maybe the only one, is that he is not reading the D post-snap, but rather locking onto his pre-snap primary.

The more success he has playing QB the wrong way, the more it is reinforced.

The better his receiving corps, the more success he will have playing the wrong way... I've already seen Derek Anderson.

By the above I am not saying our Corps should be talentless. We need route runners with good hands. The danger in excessive receiving talent is enabling QB play that is not sound fundamentally.

I'd be more inclined to agree if I saw anything from Kizer that would indicate he plays "the wrong way". He's showing a ton of plus traits - in the physical, mechanical and mental aspects.

He does lock onto reads at times, but he's a rookie and that will happen. He's also shown an ability to move through his progressions at times as well, so I'm not worried about him getting locked into bad habits.

I was actually against adding a receiver, but after this week's preseason game I'm all for adding a sure handed athletic talent. Kizer has the arm talent and poise to be something fun, but watching him deliver strikes to Britt and the others and seeing them hit the turf was supremely depressing.

Tour2ma

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

He's also shown an ability to move through his progressions at times as well,

TC, I honestly have not seen it... not even a hint of it... so if you have a particular play in mind, please let me know.

Everything else I agree with... so he has a chance... but that last step is a big one.

One factor I may have overlooked completely is his being fueled by a desire to make Brian Kelly look like the ass many of us think he is. The way Kizer is now talking in glowing terms about his growing relationship with Hue gave rise to the thought of this possible "incentive".

Mike H

Except most plays are designed to go to a primary target, or a secondary target, and most plays in the NFL do not have time to develop into tertiary reads.

Maybe think about that, and then you would see him playing the position correctly.

There were a handful of pretty bad plays he had during the first two weeks where he "locked in" and sat in the pocket too long and didn't know where to go with the ball. Those were less frequent in Week 3. That's called progress.

Ibleedbrown

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/8/28/16211560/browns-could-be-doing-homework-on-trading-for-wr

Recent article on the matter. Not much said in it that hasn't already been said here.

jrb12711

@tour2ma said:

TC, I honestly have not seen it... not even a hint of it... so if you have a particular play in mind, please let me know.

Everything else I agree with... so he has a chance... but that last step is a big one.

One factor I may have overlooked completely is his being fueled by a desire to make Brian Kelly look like the ass many of us think he is. The way Kizer is now talking in glowing terms about his growing relationship with Hue gave rise to the thought of this possible "incentive".

I'm not good at finding videos to back myself up, but being at the Bucs game I can tell you he did do this at least 2-3 times. There's no doubt he locked onto guys as well, though. He moved up in the pocket extremely well on two occasions (to include the beautiful throw to Coleman) that I was really impressed by as well.

In regards to the WR trade, FWIW local news down here have directly quoted Adam Gase in saying that Jarvis Landry would not be moved by the Dolphins.

Tour2ma

@mike-h said:

Except most plays are designed to go to a primary target, or a secondary target, and most plays in the NFL do not have time to develop into tertiary reads. Maybe think about that, and then you would see him playing the position correctly.

There were a handful of pretty bad plays he had during the first two weeks where he "locked in" and sat in the pocket too long and didn't know where to go with the ball. Those were less frequent in Week 3. That's called progress.

Thus the term primary? But it's also true that the primary changes based upon the Defensive set... and the Defensive set can change post-snap.

Mike, I'm still working through the TB game, but I did watch the video compilation of every pass Kizer made in the game focusing on his mechanics. But I also watch his helmet and if a QB is coming off his primary it tends to move. I am not seeing it move, but I am still looking. If you have a particular play or plays, let me know.

As for the first two weeks... your "handful" were the times his primary was not open per the route design. Playing against the 2's and 3's there were a lot of open primaries.

@jrb12711 said:

I'm not good at finding videos to back myself up, but being at the Bucs game I can tell you he did do this at least 2-3 times. There's no doubt he locked onto guys as well, though. He moved up in the pocket extremely well on two occasions (to include the beautiful throw to Coleman) that I was really impressed by as well.

I'll look for them.... the pocket movement has been noted.

On the Coleman throw I did note the "look off" someone (TCPO?) pointed out earlier in the discussion. There was a quick glance to the middle of the field following the pump fake... probably part of the play design to hold the safety

darubes

@gumby73 said:

Jarvis Landry is going INTO his 4th season(not vested?)...If waived? We get 1st crack at him anyhow..I'd trade for a Vested WR (4 years in), cuz they may not volunteer for this adventure..

Landry is in his last contract year. He will want big money next year

Plus has has a nagging domestic violence thing around his neck.

Nice receiver tho.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@tour2ma said:

TC, I honestly have not seen it... not even a hint of it... so if you have a particular play in mind, please let me know.

Everything else I agree with... so he has a chance... but that last step is a big one.

One factor I may have overlooked completely is his being fueled by a desire to make Brian Kelly look like the ass many of us think he is. The way Kizer is now talking in glowing terms about his growing relationship with Hue gave rise to the thought of this possible "incentive".

Wanted to wait until I got home from work today to try and tackle this, sorry for the delay.

The first thing to address is the biggest part - we're obviously not going to see a full rtl progression from him this early on. For one, its preseason and the playbook is still being installed. Two, if Hue and Co. were smart (and it seems like they are), they'd likely adopt a strategy similar to what CAR did with Cam in his first year - ease him into the action by lining the playbook with plenty of half-field and and line of sight reads. And from what I've seen so far, that seems like what they're doing. In a large percentage of Kizer's snaps, you're seeing different variations of half-field concepts (smash, stick, hi-lo) allowing Kizer to read a single defender and make his decisions based off of their reactions.

You're not wrong in saying that Kizer oft locks on to his primary read. He does. But that doesn't mean he's incapable of moving through his progressions, as he's shown the ability to do that from time to time.

, Kizer is given a half-field read. He thinks about hitting the out but pulls down when he sees the corner sit, then pump fakes the go before pulling up to run. The out was likely the primary on this play and he rightly chose not to throw it...though, with his arm talent, I think he froze the CB enough to hit the sideline fly in the soft spot under the deep half zone.

Kizer is given another half-field read against a man look. What follows is essentially a field-side smash concept. His "primary" is Telfer who's running either a go or a deep corner and his "secondary" is the Z (Louis) who is running a corner if Telfer runs the go or an out if Telfer is running the corner. I used quotes there because the real read is the CB , if he jams the Z at the line and then sits in the flat, that's going to open up either the go or the corner route - the safety will have to choose. If the CB slinks out with the Z, it leaves the flat open for a swing pass. Obviously the latter happens. You can see Kizer's eyes go from MIKE to Telfer to the CB (where he almost pulls the trigger), then he pulls down and checks off to Dayes in the flat.

of a half-field read with the hi-lo concept worked well. The pre-snap motion sends the Z across (DeValve) and does two things, it forces the FS into man coverage and forces the OLB to hesitate on his coverage, freeing up the out route for Duke. Kizer fakes the handoff, turns around and has three options to choose from without having to turn his head.

, Kizer locks on to his primary read for most of it, shoots his eyes to the backside read after a few seconds, then looks upfield to run before hitting coming back and hitting the primary for a sizable gain. Doesn't really count, but I liked it.

The deeper into the season we get and the more experience he gets, the more we'll see Kizer start navigating to his backside reads. But to say that there isn't a single example of Kizer progressing through his reads is hyperbolic. Head movement from sideline to sideline != progressing through reads.

Canton Mike

Tour & TC,

I admittedly lack your technical expertise, but I AM a lifelong Browns' Fan who has (& continues to) lived through the positives & negatives over the years. It seems to me that Kiser is a hard worker who addresses mistakes as he plays & improves as games go on. He also seems to "self diagnose". That said, he IS a rookie & will suffer growing pains. I just hope that our media & Fans (many of whom are very negative) can be patient. I look forward to continuing posts from both of you (and others) charting Kiser's progress.

I think the kid is a winner!

Mike

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@canton-mike said:

Tour & TC,

I admittedly lack your technical expertise, but I AM a lifelong Browns' Fan who has (& continues to) lived through the positives & negatives over the years. It seems to me that Kiser is a hard worker who addresses mistakes as he plays & improves as games go on. He also seems to "self diagnose". That said, he IS a rookie & will suffer growing pains. I just hope that our media & Fans (many of whom are very negative) can be patient. I look forward to continuing posts from both of you (and others) charting Kiser's progress.

I think the kid is a winner!

Mike

I do too. There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game, but even more to be said for understanding when some players just have "it". I'm not sure if it's something I can pick up on because I've picked a few stinkers in my time, but Kizer has always had a certain je ne sais quoi to him that is reminiscent of a lot of very good NFL QB's. It's something I thought I saw in his ND days and with each week I'm growing more and more convinced that he'll be the guy for us for a long time.

I don't think he'll ever be the guy who goes out there and completes 70% of his passes, throws zero picks and completely rips apart the defense pre snap a la Manning, but I think he'll be a guy who can go out there and extend plays, throw balls into seemingly impossible windows, and maybe have a few 400 yard passing games in his career when all is said and done.

Tour2ma

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

, Kizer is given a half-field read. He thinks about hitting the out but pulls down when he sees the corner sit, then pump fakes the go before pulling up to run. The out was likely the primary on this play and he rightly chose not to throw it...though, with his arm talent, I think he froze the CB enough to hit the sideline fly in the soft spot under the deep half zone.

Agree... and this makes my point. The route combo is designed to put the CB in a box. To work you have to read the CB, not progress from one target to another. Once the FS backpeddles on the far hash, you read the far CB. When you see the CB squatting on the flat you know you are going up the sideline. Keep the throw fairly flat and there's no way the CB recovers or the FS gets over. Plus getting the ball there quickly gives the WR a shot at juking the FS.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Kizer is given another half-field read against a man look. What follows is essentially a field-side smash concept. His "primary" is Telfer who's running either a go or a deep corner and his "secondary" is the Z (Louis) who is running a corner if Telfer runs the go or an out if Telfer is running the corner. I used quotes there because the real read is the CB , if he jams the Z at the line and then sits in the flat, that's going to open up either the go or the corner route - the safety will have to choose. If the CB slinks out with the Z, it leaves the flat open for a swing pass. Obviously the latter happens. You can see Kizer's eyes go from MIKE to Telfer to the CB (where he almost pulls the trigger), then he pulls down and checks off to Dayes in the flat.

I'd need a 22 look to be sure, but I think Kizer was on Louis from the snap... likely on a deep curl given his inside release... but was covered. Telfer should have turned in and settled behind the LBs, but can't see if he did. That he never shows up for a block does make me think he turned in. Louis did show.

In any case kudos to Kizer's internal clock. A split second more and the DE that Sterup ole'd would have had a strip sack.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

of a half-field read with the hi-lo concept worked well. The pre-snap motion sends the Z across (DeValve) and does two things, it forces the FS into man coverage and forces the OLB to hesitate on his coverage, freeing up the out route for Duke. Kizer fakes the handoff, turns around and has three options to choose from without having to turn his head.

Again, what bothers me here is no evidence of him finding the Safeties... in particular here the FS who looks to be rotating over the top into an single high as the SS takes Devalve. Instead I see him on Hall from the time he snaps his head around.

Positives: Decent ball fake and route by Hall. Somewhere down the line I think the X clears and Duke turns his flat route up the sideline.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

, Kizer locks on to his primary read for most of it, shoots his eyes to the backside read after a few seconds, then looks upfield to run before hitting coming back and hitting the primary for a sizable gain. Doesn't really count, but I liked it.

lol... This viewing I actually came away thinking Kizer was reading the SS on the near hash post snap who he appears to see closing on the LOS in case Devalve released. And the very quick glance right after the pump may have been to locate the FS. It wasn't long enough to locate the 2 receivers to the right. Regardless he came back to his primary post haste.

But, yes, eyes downfield and one of the best TOR's in recent memory. Helluva a catch, too...

Thanks for taking the time.

Tour2ma

@canton-mike said:

I admittedly lack your technical expertise, but I AM a lifelong Browns' Fan who has (& continues to) lived through the positives & negatives over the years. It seems to me that Kiser is a hard worker who addresses mistakes as he plays & improves as games go on. He also seems to "self diagnose". That said, he IS a rookie & will suffer growing pains. I just hope that our media & Fans (many of whom are very negative) can be patient. I look forward to continuing posts from both of you (and others) charting Kiser's progress.

I think the kid is a winner!

Expertise schmekspertise... all it really takes is time and some good HD replays that can be viewed over and over.

Totally agree on Kizer's self-awareness. I would not be surprised to learn that Hue's mentorship is as much to keep him from getting down on himself as anything else, but one of those anything elses is reading a D on the fly.... and that ain't easy.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I do too. There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game, but even more to be said for understanding when some players just have "it". I'm not sure if it's something I can pick up on because I've picked a few stinkers in my time, but Kizer has always had a certain je ne sais quoi to him that is reminiscent of a lot of very good NFL QB's. It's something I thought I saw in his ND days and with each week I'm growing more and more convinced that he'll be the guy for us for a long time.

I don't think he'll ever be the guy who goes out there and completes 70% of his passes, throws zero picks and completely rips apart the defense pre snap a la Manning, but I think he'll be a guy who can go out there and extend plays, throw balls into seemingly impossible windows, and maybe have a few 400 yard passing games in his career when all is said and done.

"It"... the most elusive analysis of all. Easiest to spot if accompanied by fire, but not seeing fire as yet. Also sometimes accompanied by joy... not seeing it either. Still may be there, just absent anything to really celebrate as yet.

I do agree that Kizer showed something in 2015 at ND... and suspect that Kelly beat it out of him in 2016.

Also agree that he has the tools... question is whether the head finds that switch and flips it. If he does, I'm not sure what determines his ceiling from there. Another interesting conversation for another day...

Mark O

@tour2ma said:

"It"... the most elusive analysis of all. Easiest to spot if accompanied by fire, but not seeing fire as yet. Also sometimes accompanied by joy... not seeing it either. Still may be there, just absent anything to really celebrate as yet.

I do agree that Kizer showed something in 2015 at ND... and suspect that Kelly beat it out of him in 2016.

Also agree that he has the tools... question is whether the head finds that switch and flips it. If he does, I'm not sure what determines his ceiling from there. Another interesting conversation for another day...

What I like so far is more than any other of the rookie QB "stars" we've had over the last 20 years is that he makes plays that make me think wow...he's really good. He makes some head scratching decisions as well but that is to be expected for a rookie. But none of the high draft pick QB's we've picked over the last 20 years have done anything that made me think they have the ability. I think Kizer does and hopefully it all pans out.

jcam222

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I do too. There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game, but even more to be said for understanding when some players just have "it". I'm not sure if it's something I can pick up on because I've picked a few stinkers in my time, but Kizer has always had a certain je ne sais quoi to him that is reminiscent of a lot of very good NFL QB's. It's something I thought I saw in his ND days and with each week I'm growing more and more convinced that he'll be the guy for us for a long time.

I don't think he'll ever be the guy who goes out there and completes 70% of his passes, throws zero picks and completely rips apart the defense pre snap a la Manning, but I think he'll be a guy who can go out there and extend plays, throw balls into seemingly impossible windows, and maybe have a few 400 yard passing games in his career when all is said and done.

He will be the proverbial gun slinger ala Favre 2.0, I don't know about anyone else but I'll take those INT's along with the WOW plays.

TexasAg1969

@jcam222 said:

He will be the proverbial gun slinger ala Favre 2.0, I don't know about anyone else but I'll take those INT's along with the WOW plays.

If our D plays as well in regular season as preseason, I'm all in with the rook while he learns. No one here thinks we are above a 5 win season so we got absolutely nothing to lose by just playing all the young guns both sides of the ball. Why not? It will certainly be entertaining.

Tour2ma

@jcam222 said:

He will be the proverbial gun slinger ala Favre 2.0, I don't know about anyone else but I'll take those INT's along with the WOW plays.

I honestly could not handle that... and ultimately I do not think our Fanbase would either.

As I have said many times, Favre never won a SB, but he lost GB a couple of them.

Fortunately I do not see Favre in Kizer. For starters Kizer's work ethic is clear to see. Favre's was always a topic of debate.

TexasAg1969

@tour2ma said:

Fortunately I do not see Favre in Kizer. For starters Kizer's work ethic is clear to see. Favre's was always a topic of debate

The thing I like most about both Kizer and Garrett is that they are both very smart players who are willing to both work and learn about how to be great players in the NFL. That's why I have no problem with letting them make their mistakes and learning from them every game as starters.